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Old 24th June 2020, 09:06 PM   #121
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Why not both?
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Old 25th June 2020, 12:11 AM   #122
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"It seems like the era before the Civil Rights Movement and large-scale social welfare programs (The Great Society) were pretty good times for blacks."

Yeah, good times!
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:23 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
As Thomas Sowell and others have pointed out the conditions of blacks today have nothing to do with a legacy of slavery and everything to do with a legacy of Liberalism.
Sowell is some kind of idiot because he seems to claim that Liberalism causes (or caused) these problems instead of just setting the stage for them. Setting the stage is entirety different compared to actually acting on a stage that is set. Liberalism ought not take blame for what the actors do after the stage is set.

Thomas Sowell mistakenly or maliciously puts blames on Liberalism.
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Old 25th June 2020, 01:25 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sowell is some kind of idiot because he seems to claim that Liberalism causes (or caused) these problems instead of just setting the stage for them. Setting the stage is entirety different compared to actually acting on a stage that is set. Liberalism ought not take blame for what the actors do after the stage is set.

Thomas Sowell mistakenly or maliciously puts blames on Liberalism.
Why would anyone want to take any notice of Uncle Tom Sowell?
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Old 25th June 2020, 07:50 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"It seems like the era before the Civil Rights Movement and large-scale social welfare programs (The Great Society) were pretty good times for blacks."
More whites have been lynched than blacks so however bad it was for blacks back then, it must've been worse for whites.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:16 AM   #126
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tanabear: "As Thomas Sowell and others have pointed out the conditions of blacks today have nothing to do with a legacy of slavery and everything to do with a legacy of Liberalism."

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Why not both?
Because the black crime rate and illegitimacy rate started to soar in the 1960s, a hundred years after slavery ended. The collapse of black society began when liberal criminal justice "reform" and liberal social welfare policies triumphed in the 60s.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"It seems like the era before the Civil Rights Movement and large-scale social welfare programs (The Great Society) were pretty good times for blacks."
It is necessary for the Left to portray life for black Americans prior to the Civil Rights era as a den of horrors, and also necessary to portray life after Civil Rights as sunshine and rainbows. This is why the only thing that can be mentioned prior to Civil Rights is slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and lynching. Liberals are the saviors of blacks and anything that goes against this narrative is heresy (i.e. racist!).

But real life is far more complicated than liberal fairy tales. I believe roughly ~ 3,500 black people were lynched between 1882 and 1968. How many incremental black deaths were caused by Black Lives Matter (BLM) since 2014? Well over 4,000, So BLM is ultimately responsible for more black deaths in a just few years than all the blacks who were lynched in the entire history of the US. Also note that many of the lynching victims were guilty, while most of the blacks killed today are innocent.

So how is Black Lives Matter version 2.0 playing out?

"Amid protests and looting in the city, 18 people were killed in Chicago on Sunday, May 31, which made it the single most violent day in Chicago in six decades..."


Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sowell is some kind of idiot because he seems to claim that Liberalism causes (or caused) these problems instead of just setting the stage for them. Setting the stage is entirety different compared to actually acting on a stage that is set. Liberalism ought not take blame for what the actors do after the stage is set.

Thomas Sowell mistakenly or maliciously puts blames on Liberalism.
Liberalism is Rabies!

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Why would anyone want to take any notice of Uncle Tom Sowell?
Because some people wish to acquire knowledge and understanding of the world instead of just repeating liberal slogans like a parrot.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
More whites have been lynched than blacks so however bad it was for blacks back then, it must've been worse for whites.
I believe whites accounted for about one-quarter of lynching victims.
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Old 28th June 2020, 09:25 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Why would anyone want to take any notice of Uncle Tom Sowell?
Uncle Tom = "not thinking like black people should".
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:24 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
tanabear: "As Thomas Sowell and others have pointed out the conditions of blacks today have nothing to do with a legacy of slavery and everything to do with a legacy of Liberalism."
This is demonstrably false. Not even a matter of opinion. You can keep deferring to Sowell all you want but he's wrong.



Quote:
Because the black crime rate and illegitimacy rate started to soar in the 1960s, a hundred years after slavery ended. The collapse of black society began when liberal criminal justice "reform" and liberal social welfare policies triumphed in the 60s.
If you truly believe a "liberal" set of social safety programs created in 1964 caused the social disorder (namely crime and increased illegitimacy) than the conservatives dropped the ball in effectively reforming the welfare system to the benefit of blacks. Conservative Republican administrations reigned for almost two decades beginning in 1969.



Quote:
It is necessary for the Left to portray life for black Americans prior to the Civil Rights era as a den of horrors, and also necessary to portray life after Civil Rights as sunshine and rainbows. This is why the only thing that can be mentioned prior to Civil Rights is slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and lynching. Liberals are the saviors of blacks and anything that goes against this narrative is heresy (i.e. racist!).
Racism, Jim Crow segregation and 2nd class citizenship was the defining feature of black America prior to the civil rights movement. OBVIOUSLY. It's not like there wasn't a....Civil...Rights...Movement (remember the thing you just referred to in your post?) for this exact reason. You attempting to paint this era as a rosy time for us is pretty telling but you're not exactly what i'd call an honest actor.



Quote:
But real life is far more complicated than liberal fairy tales. I believe roughly ~ 3,500 black people were lynched between 1882 and 1968. How many incremental black deaths were caused by Black Lives Matter (BLM) since 2014? Well over 4,000, So BLM is ultimately responsible for more black deaths in a just few years than all the blacks who were lynched in the entire history of the US. Also note that many of the lynching victims were guilty, while most of the blacks killed today are innocent.

So how is Black Lives Matter version 2.0 playing out?

"Amid protests and looting in the city, 18 people were killed in Chicago on Sunday, May 31, which made it the single most violent day in Chicago in six decades..."
You do realize BLM is nothing more than a protest movement right?
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Old 28th June 2020, 04:34 PM   #129
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.

Inequality by design: How redlining continues to shape our economy

https://www.marketplace.org/2020/04/...e-our-economy/


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Redlining has been illegal for decades, but an exhibit traveling around the country aims to show how that policy continues to shape our economy today. It’s called Undesign the Redline.

A timeline in the exhibit shows how those maps paved the way for urban decay and white flight in the 1960s and ’70s, mass incarceration in the ’80s and ’90s, the foreclosure crisis of the 2000s and the gentrification of today — and how all of that has prevented African American communities from building generational wealth.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:04 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
The black crime rate came down in the 1940s and 1950s. If a population commits fewer crimes they will be hassled by the police less often. In the 1950s we got a lower crime rate with a falling incarceration rate; a win-win.
Again they still suffered from racism.
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Old 28th June 2020, 07:08 PM   #131
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The whole "welfare ruined the black community" seems to be a racist narrative. It implies that blacks were previously successful but when offered welfare they suddenly dumped everything and became lazy. Why did black people need welfare and why were whites not effected as badly?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:13 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
The whole "welfare ruined the black community" seems to be a racist narrative. It implies that blacks were previously successful but when offered welfare they suddenly dumped everything and became lazy. Why did black people need welfare and why were whites not effected as badly?
100%. Regean used the welfare queen trope effectively as a tool to disparage the black community and to dog whistle to racist. In a fair and reasonable world, if the system was so broken that someone could live like a queen off of it we'd admit the problem is with the system, not the recipient. The president would crusade for welfare reform to the benefit of all instead of using it as an opportunity to demagogue and demonize. If the rules of the game are broken you change the rules.


But of course the GOP crusade was to actively undermine the black community and court racist so they'd rather use it as an opportunity to reinforce negative black stereotypes of laziness and criminality.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:23 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Actually, that was a reason for abolishing slavery. Continuing to import Africans would lead to their numbers spiraling out of control. The danger that would represent was one of the reasons Abraham Lincoln thought slavery should be abolished and the free slaves sent back to Africa.
The importation of Africans had ceased decades prior to Lincoln, so, no.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:26 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Yes, how long would it be before an all-white ethnostate founded on racism reintroduced the idea of Aryan purity? I hope anybody fantasising about living in one has blonde hair and blue eyes, and that everybody they care about does, too. I'm not sure their impurities would be welcome for long, otherwise.
This didn't even happen in Nazi Germany, nor was it advocated there, so where are you getting that idea?
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:27 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
Most college aged kids (assuming most of the young people are in that age bracket) are saddled with student debt they cant pay off and are lucky to have any savings at all. Not sure what world you're living in

These are two completely different concepts. Decentralization requires out-migration to reduce the population density and the high concentration of perpetually disadvantaged people. Basically the same process italians or Irish went through after being confined in ethnically homogeneous slums.

Your idea of peppering a few white families throughout doesnt solve the problem of centralization and high concentration of blacks being consolidated to very specific neighborhoods.
One issue is that most of the blacks I know and interact with want and prefer to live in areas where there is a high concentration of blacks, and don't want to be dispersed, and resent having their communities either diluted OR dispersed. How would you advocate handling that issue? That's a serious question, not an attempt at a "gotcha!"

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Old 28th June 2020, 11:33 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Lincoln probably had a more defeatist attitude when it came to the black community. He thought they were better off away from white society (for their own good).

He wasn't a white supremacist.
LOL, yes he was, talk about whitewashing a historical figure. He was a white supremacist through and through.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:42 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
It takes a special kind of stupid to call a 47% poverty rate “pretty good times for blacks.”
It takes a special kind of stupid to not recognize that a 40% reduction in poverty is a massive improvement, and an indicator that things were going "pretty good" in comparison to how they'd been before.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:44 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
You do realize that calling something fake doesn't magically make it true right?

No.


You're asking why are children in more stable homes less prone to dysfunction? The question answers itself. Remember i'm not the one that believes in a genetic explanation for crime.



You're advocating for a racial state. Not an ethno-state. Not to mention problem with an ethnostate (as I alluded to earlier) is you can divide people arbitrarily a million times over. In a theoretical racial state white vs black would give way to Aryan white vs swarthy non-aryan white and so on and so forth.
What's your evidence for this? This continued fracturing isn't something observable in existing ethnostates, past or present.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:46 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"It seems like the era before the Civil Rights Movement and large-scale social welfare programs (The Great Society) were pretty good times for blacks."
I could post pictures of lynched whites, too, what's your point? Lynching sucks no matter who the victims are. It wasn't the Civil Rights Movement or large-scale social welfare programs that put an end to lynching, so I'm not seeing the connection to the thread.

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Old 28th June 2020, 11:49 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
More whites have been lynched than blacks so however bad it was for blacks back then, it must've been worse for whites.
I agree that the number of whites who were lynched is almost always completely overlooked or swept under the carpet, and that people constantly pretend (or are simply ignorant) that lynching only or primarily targeted blacks, but to be fair, blacks were always lynched at rates higher than whites, per capita, so no, it wasn't worse for whites.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:55 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
This is demonstrably false. Not even a matter of opinion. You can keep deferring to Sowell all you want but he's wrong.
Are you going to demonstrate this "demonstrably false" thing? Or are you just going to say it's demonstrably false without demonstrating it?

Quote:
If you truly believe a "liberal" set of social safety programs created in 1964 caused the social disorder (namely crime and increased illegitimacy) than the conservatives dropped the ball in effectively reforming the welfare system to the benefit of blacks. Conservative Republican administrations reigned for almost two decades beginning in 1969.
What's your point? They sure did. Is it some kind of "gotcha" that "conservatives" dropped the ball? As if that never happened before?
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:54 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
One issue is that most of the blacks I know and interact with want and prefer to live in areas where there is a high concentration of blacks, and don't want to be dispersed, and resent having their communities either diluted OR dispersed. How would you advocate handling that issue? That's a serious question, not an attempt at a "gotcha!"
Nice anecdote. And there is an important distinction between racial enclaves and ghettos. Hyper segregation isnt normal and can be alleviated in time.


Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
What's your evidence for this? This continued fracturing isn't something observable in existing ethnostates, past or present.
I alluded to a racial state and in a racial state whites would further divide along perceived lines of purity. This is inherent in a racial state where whiteness (and not ethnicity) is everything.


Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Are you going to demonstrate this "demonstrably false" thing? Or are you just going to say it's demonstrably false without demonstrating it?
This is literally the basis of the entire thread. Did you not read the OP?



Quote:
What's your point? They sure did. Is it some kind of "gotcha" that "conservatives" dropped the ball? As if that never happened before?
Honestly have no clue what your on about. I made my point clear. If you singularly blame the Great Society legislation and some vague notion of liberalism for the disorder in black America than you MUST acknowledge the inaction of the conservative administrations succeeding the passage of the legislation to mitigate damage (since the legislation only existed for 5 years before the conservatives reigned for nearly 20).
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:12 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
Nice anecdote. And there is an important distinction between racial enclaves and ghettos. Hyper segregation isnt normal and can be alleviated in time.
Nice avoidance of a genuine question and a genuine phenomenon by dismissing it as "anecdote." I remain interested in hearing an actual solution, because most black people who live in predominantly black neighborhoods wish to continue living in predominantly black neighborhoods, although naturally they wish that the neighborhoods weren't plagued by poverty and crime.


Quote:
I alluded to a racial state and in a racial state whites would further divide along perceived lines of purity. This is inherent in a racial state where whiteness (and not ethnicity) is everything.
Thank you for clarifying the distinction, I had overlooked it but it's definitely valid. Has there ever even been a racial state? I can't think of one but that may very well be an issue of my own ignorance. If there hasn't been one, how do we know that it would further divide? I suppose South Africa might qualify, but as far as I know, that didn't divide further.


Quote:
Honestly have no clue what your on about. I made my point clear. If you singularly blame the Great Society legislation and some vague notion of liberalism for the disorder in black America than you MUST acknowledge the inaction of the conservative administrations succeeding the passage of the legislation to mitigate damage (since the legislation only existed for 5 years before the conservatives reigned for nearly 20).
What I'm "on about" is that I don't understand your point. Is there anyone on either side who denies the inaction of the conservative administrations in this regard? I hadn't seen anyone stating otherwise. It seems like the argument is more about the successful implementation of "liberal" policy and an opinion that such policy is harmful. Nobody was saying that conservatives have been successful or inclined to reverse the policies. Generally speaking, conservative politicians are nothing if not hypocritical or ineffective.

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Old 29th June 2020, 02:56 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
Nice avoidance of a genuine question and a genuine phenomenon by dismissing it as "anecdote." I remain interested in hearing an actual solution, because most black people who live in predominantly black neighborhoods wish to continue living in predominantly black neighborhoods, although naturally they wish that the neighborhoods weren't plagued by poverty and crime.
I gave you an answer. Decentralization. Was that not good enough? Racial enclaves will always exist but ghettos absolutely NEED to disappear cause they are incubators of social Ills and were absolutely a direct consequence of discriminatory policies and practices and not some natural migration patterns or desire of blacks to live amongst other blacks

ETA: And your anecdote was your "most black people I talked to" comment. Not your broader question of how it would be accomplished. Thought this was obvious.

Quote:
Thank you for clarifying the distinction, I had overlooked it but it's definitely valid. Has there ever even been a racial state? I can't think of one but that may very well be an issue of my own ignorance. If there hasn't been one, how do we know that it would further divide? I suppose South Africa might qualify, but as far as I know, that didn't divide further.
America attempted the racial state. Didnt work out so well. Whiteness was heralded and strictly defined to the extent even the irish and Italians were considered "other" (I'm sure you know this).




Quote:
What I'm "on about" is that I don't understand your point. Is there anyone on either side who denies the inaction of the conservative administrations in this regard? I hadn't seen anyone stating otherwise. It seems like the argument is more about the successful implementation of "liberal" policy and an opinion that such policy is harmful. Nobody was saying that conservatives have been successful or inclined to reverse the policies. Generally speaking, conservative politicians are nothing if not hypocritical or ineffective.
Yes tanabear alluded to some vague notion of a "liberal takeover" being the cause of crime and disorder when conservative Republicans dominated most of the era. Not only that but Republicans have blood on their hands and hold responsibility for the creation of the prison industrial complex and beginning the era of mass incarceration which only helped make crime and disorder more likely. This cant be ignored when discussing crime and disorder
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:48 AM   #145
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IIRC it was Erlichman who admitted that the War on Drugs was purpose-designed to ruin black and hippy (liberal) communities, allowing them to be disrupted constantly at every level, from street to organization.

There were less than a half million people in prison in the mid 1970's. Today there are over two million, and the population has not quadrupled in that same time.
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In September 2013, the incarceration rate of the United States of America was the highest in the world at 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.
Gee, whatever does the map indicate? When did the war on drugs start, and what does the chart below indicate? (Source: Wiki.)
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:51 AM   #146
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Now add private prisons, 3-strike and mandatory long prison terms, and in-prison production of private goods for sale, and you have yourself a fine, dandy, Jim Crow, good ole smiling whine boy reversal of the 13th Amendment, and modern day slavery.

Now, jus' ain't them whine boys so cleva, I do declare!

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Old 29th June 2020, 06:16 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
It seems in the midst of any racially contentious event many love to trot out black crime statistics as a device to dog whistle to racist without providing a solution or explanation so let me explain. First it needs to be said, to attribute crime in black communities to nothing but poverty (as many do) is doing a huge disservice to the complexity and origin of this problem.


Let's be clear, these high crime communities represent the direct pipeline from slavery, to Jim crow, to ghettoization (and yes that's a real sociological term). For example Jew's were ghettoized (forced into segregated communities) by mandate, while blacks were ghettoized by policies and practices made to restrict movement, autonomy and contact with whites (specifically residential redlining, restrictive covenants, blockbusting, racial steering and secondary causes like white flight). Hence nearly every sizable american city has a ghetto(s). It was a successful campaign


Being trapped on an island of poverty combined with the effects of social isolation, concentrated poverty, generational wealth inequality and alienation, high crime is inevitable.


The mitigating factor that continues to fuel this fire is the drug war. We all know how disastrous prohibition was and the drug war = prohibition 2.0. Just like alcohol prohibition it promotes the development of organized crime, destabilizes communities and grows black markets. In many instances ghettoized black communities adapted to the restrictive, impoverished economic environment, and participation in the black market economy became mainstreamed and somewhat normative within many of these communities.

The difference between prohibition 1.0 and 2.0 is the secondary human cost of the drug war is exponentially higher but wasn't enough for the Gov't to stop waging the war unlike alcohol prohibition (presumably because the primary casualties are black Americans with minor collateral damage to white communities). The war being waged was fought mostly in impoverished black communities and the casualties of this "war" weren't/aren't attributed to a failed, broken, racially biased system but are wrongly attributed to failures In character and black culture.


Let's be clear, this phenomenon is a legacy/vestige of jim crow America and as long as we believe we can beat, arrest and imprison the problem away, nothing will change.
There is a such thing as free will. No one has to use dope. Drugs destroy everything good about a human being. The lack of character and a sense of decency fall by the wayside except between highs. That's not enough. Some of the most miserable work experiences occurred to me when I was harassed and eventually assaulted by a black man on Crack cocaine.

While certain negative things do occur more often in certain communities its still no excuse for illegal or harmful or unproductive behaviour.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:03 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
There is a such thing as free will. No one has to use dope. Drugs destroy everything good about a human being. The lack of character and a sense of decency fall by the wayside except between highs. That's not enough. Some of the most miserable work experiences occurred to me when I was harassed and eventually assaulted by a black man on Crack cocaine.

While certain negative things do occur more often in certain communities its still no excuse for illegal or harmful or unproductive behaviour.
Did you import this argument from 1920? These exact same arguments were made to justify the prohibition of alcohol and weed.

Point is it shouldn't be a criminal issue but a health issue. We realized the futility of alcohol prohibition in the early day's, it's time we do the same for the drug war.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:06 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
IIRC it was Erlichman who admitted that the War on Drugs was purpose-designed to ruin black and hippy (liberal) communities, allowing them to be disrupted constantly at every level, from street to organization.

There were less than a half million people in prison in the mid 1970's. Today there are over two million, and the population has not quadrupled in that same time.

Gee, whatever does the map indicate? When did the war on drugs start, and what does the chart below indicate? (Source: Wiki.)
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Now add private prisons, 3-strike and mandatory long prison terms, and in-prison production of private goods for sale, and you have yourself a fine, dandy, Jim Crow, good ole smiling whine boy reversal of the 13th Amendment, and modern day slavery.

Now, jus' ain't them whine boys so cleva, I do declare!
Bingo. Made this point early in the thread but needs to be reiterated.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:38 AM   #150
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It seems like we have two rival explanations here.

1. That the war on drugs ruined black communities and led to criminality.
2. That welfare ruined black communities and led to criminality.

Those things didn't happen at exactly the same time, and welfare has been implemented in different countries. It seems like there should be opportunities to test the theories in the data?

Three strikes rules have been mentioned. They seem like a relatively recent thing in many states when compared to increased criminality, so presumably are a reaction rather than a cause? Violent crime seems to have gone down since many states introduced them in the 90s.
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Old 29th June 2020, 08:27 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It seems like we have two rival explanations here.

1. That the war on drugs ruined black communities and led to criminality.
2. That welfare ruined black communities and led to criminality.

Those things didn't happen at exactly the same time, and welfare has been implemented in different countries. It seems like there should be opportunities to test the theories in the data?

Three strikes rules have been mentioned. They seem like a relatively recent thing in many states when compared to increased criminality, so presumably are a reaction rather than a cause? Violent crime seems to have gone down since many states introduced them in the 90s.
The black community was fractured long before the drug war. Helped "destabilize the black family unit" is more apt. My contention is the drug war was the catalyst behind mass incarceration and that combined with the draconian approach to sentencing and drug criminalization helped create, maintain and fuel the relatively high level of crime within those communities. Also 3 strikes is an isolated variable in this equation but one that perfectly exemplifies the excesses of the drug war.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:23 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
The black community was fractured long before the drug war. Helped "destabilize the black family unit" is more apt. My contention is the drug war was the catalyst behind mass incarceration and that combined with the draconian approach to sentencing and drug criminalization helped create, maintain and fuel the relatively high level of crime within those communities. Also 3 strikes is an isolated variable in this equation but one that perfectly exemplifies the excesses of the drug war.
You have a story of what happened, Doghouse Reilly has a story. I don't doubt that you can show graphs that show the prison population has greatly increased. What I don't see in this thread is anything in this thread that shows your story is right, and his is wrong.

This graph:
seems to show the rate of single motherhood beginning to go up in the mid-60s.

If we went with your story, wouldn't we expect to see the rate of increase go up in the early 70s at exactly the point where the rate of increase slows?

You've also got the homicide rate going up from the mid-60s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_...s1900-2001.jpg

It looks from these graphs as if something is happening before any Nixon policy like the war on drugs could be a factor. If the war on drugs was the decisive factor in the destruction of family and community, wouldn't we expect to see it in the graph of single parent families?

I wish countries rolled out policy in a way it was possible to determine the impact, maybe one state/region at a time? I don't claim that the above answers the question, but I'm curious what evidence you have that shows the war on drugs is the correct one for explaining the issues mentioned in the OP.

Last edited by shuttlt; 29th June 2020 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 1st July 2020, 08:52 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
This is demonstrably false. Not even a matter of opinion. You can keep deferring to Sowell all you want but he's wrong.
How is this demonstrably false? The black crime rate was declining in the 40s and 50s then exploded in the 1960s along with the illegitimacy rate. This was a hundred years after slavery ended. Candace Owens even made the same point in a debate with Cornell West, "...the first 100 years after slavery the black community was going up, up, up...then they socialized our communities via welfare policy and the black community started going down, down down."

Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
If you truly believe a "liberal" set of social safety programs created in 1964 caused the social disorder (namely crime and increased illegitimacy) than the conservatives dropped the ball in effectively reforming the welfare system to the benefit of blacks. Conservative Republican administrations reigned for almost two decades beginning in 1969.
Political leaders, and Presidents in particular, deal with the larger more immediate concerns of a nation, the Vietnam war, inflation, unemployment etc. Social trends are something that Presidents do not have normally have their eyes on and it can take a decade or more to fully comprehend their impact; long after they have left office. But Democrats did control the House and Senate (except 1980-1986) during these years. The Republicans did not win the House back until 1994 after 40 years in the wilderness. Once they did they made welfare reform a top priority.

Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
Racism, Jim Crow segregation and 2nd class citizenship was the defining feature of black America prior to the civil rights movement. OBVIOUSLY. It's not like there wasn't a....Civil...Rights...Movement (remember the thing you just referred to in your post?) for this exact reason. You attempting to paint this era as a rosy time for us is pretty telling but you're not exactly what i'd call an honest actor.
That is how we view the past today through our politically correct lens. But I don't believe that even most black people living through those eras thought in those terms. Marxists view the past through the lens of the class struggle. But most people living in the past did not view their society in such a way.

Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
You do realize BLM is nothing more than a protest movement right?
There are a few necessary requirements to make a protest movement legitimate. One, you have to actually be in a real sense fighting the power. Black Lives Matter version 1.0 (circa 2014-2017) had the support of the President, Attorney General, the head of the DHS, Silicon Valley and many politicians. Two, you have to have a legitimate cause. The rallying cry of BLM version 1.0 was "Hands-Up, Don't Shoot." This was a fake news story that never happened. BLM version 2.0 (circa 2020) has the complete support of every powerful institution in this country. BLM is not fighting the power; they are the shock troops of the power establishment. To say that BLM fights the power is akin to saying that the Storm Troopers fought the power.

Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Again they still suffered from racism.
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
The whole "welfare ruined the black community" seems to be a racist narrative. It implies that blacks were previously successful but when offered welfare they suddenly dumped everything and became lazy. Why did black people need welfare and why were whites not effected as badly?
Blacks did not need welfare. The poverty rate in the black community had dropped precipitously in the two decades prior to the Great Society programs. The incentives offered by the Great Society welfare programs were insidious.

"We launched this so-called war on poverty in the 60s, where literally Lyndon Johnson sent people knocking on doors …. apprising women of their availability to welfare provided there was no man in the house and we went from 25% of blacks being born out of wedlock in 1965 to 75% right now...We’ve economically incentivized women to marry the government, and we’ve allowed men to abandon their financial and moral responsibility and now we have this."
Larry Elder

Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
But of course the GOP crusade was to actively undermine the black community and court racist so they'd rather use it as an opportunity to reinforce negative black stereotypes of laziness and criminality.
How could the GOP undermine the black community when almost all the big cities are controlled by Democrats? The one time a Republican was elected in a major city, Rudolph Giuliani in New York, the crime rate collapsed and the city improved mightily.

Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
The black community was fractured long before the drug war. Helped "destabilize the black family unit" is more apt. My contention is the drug war was the catalyst behind mass incarceration and that combined with the draconian approach to sentencing and drug criminalization helped create, maintain and fuel the relatively high level of crime within those communities. Also 3 strikes is an isolated variable in this equation but one that perfectly exemplifies the excesses of the drug war.
No. The huge rise in the black crime rate is what led to mass incarceration. If there are more criminals you simply need more places to lock them up. The murder rate in America doubled between 1964 and 1974. We aren't just incarcerating black people for no reason. If it was due to the "drug war" then why is there a huge difference in criminality between black children from married families versus those from single-parent families?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 10:37 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
It seemed, wrote Machiavelli, that in the midst of murders and civil wars, our republic became stronger [and] its citizens infused with virtues..."
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Right and famines are great because people lose weight. You still haven't explain how they could escape from racism if they were successful and had the family together considering that didn't help them in the past.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Blacks did not need welfare. The poverty rate in the black community had dropped precipitously in the two decades prior to the Great Society programs. The incentives offered by the Great Society welfare programs were insidious.

"We launched this so-called war on poverty in the 60s, where literally Lyndon Johnson sent people knocking on doors …. apprising women of their availability to welfare provided there was no man in the house and we went from 25% of blacks being born out of wedlock in 1965 to 75% right now...We’ve economically incentivized women to marry the government, and we’ve allowed men to abandon their financial and moral responsibility and now we have this."
Larry Elder
That's a lie. It was Southern conservatives who added in no-man-in-the-home rules for welfare and this was at the state level.

Last edited by Jerrymander; 2nd July 2020 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 12:09 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
That's a lie. It was Southern conservatives who added in no-man-in-the-home rules for welfare and this was at the state level.
Source?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 12:49 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Source?
Look up the journal article "Democratic Divisions in the 1960s and the Road to Welfare Reform" among others.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 01:37 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Look up the journal article "Democratic Divisions in the 1960s and the Road to Welfare Reform" among others.
I can't a free copy.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:16 PM   #158
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Get a Jstor account and you can access one.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 03:02 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
Look up the journal article "Democratic Divisions in the 1960s and the Road to Welfare Reform" among others.
Wikipedia has the Man-in-the-house rule struck down in '68. Again, according to Wikipedia, Man-in-the-house seems to be a state by state thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aid_to...%20whatsoever.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 03:11 AM   #160
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On further reading, the man in the house rule, is about households where the father of the children is no longer in the picture. This welfare not being available to married couples, or households where the father of the children is still in the picture seems to go back to it's original introduction in the 30s.

Are we claiming that black families collapsed because for 6 years families where the father had left were disincentive to have a new man in the house who didn't take responsibility for the household?
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