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Tags Derek Chauvin , George Floyd , Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges

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Old 11th July 2020, 07:56 AM   #1361
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The primary duty of the police is to apprehend and remove bad actors from society- increasing (theoretically) the safety of the community and upholding community standards.

That is different from "public safety".
Not in the UK, they are also for "keeping the peace".
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Old 11th July 2020, 07:56 AM   #1362
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If she was doing something against her medical training or something that is known to be potentially lethal for no medical reason than yes she has murdered her patient.
And as surgeons, we are able to make that determination based upon the result, no?
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Old 11th July 2020, 07:56 AM   #1363
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And as surgeons, we are able to make that determination based upon the result, no?
What question are you asking?
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:03 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What question are you asking?
Reiteration of the initial point that led to this sidebar. Which was "how well do we- as non police- understand the job of policing?"

We understand that ,as non- surgeons, we are qualified to judge only the most apparently egregious acts of a surgeon that lead to death, and even then it is quite possible that we could still be in error as to wether what was done constitutes a "murder".

The claim was made that police unions protect the police by claiming what is essentially the same thing- that people not intimately familiar with that job are ill qualified to pass judgment on how it is performed.
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:05 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not in the UK, they are also for "keeping the peace".
I can accept that assertion without question, although "keeping the peace" is about as vague as "to protect and serve".
Pax Romana, et al..
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:48 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The primary duty of the police is to apprehend and remove bad actors from society- increasing (theoretically) the safety of the community and upholding community standards.

That is different from "public safety".
They behave in ways that reduce their own ability to correctly identify, locate, and apprehend such persons. In many cases, the communities don't even bother reporting the crimes.
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Old 11th July 2020, 08:59 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
They behave in ways that reduce their own ability to correctly identify, locate, and apprehend such persons. In many cases, the communities don't even bother reporting the crimes.
How so?
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:05 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Reiteration of the initial point that led to this sidebar. Which was "how well do we- as non police- understand the job of policing?"

We understand that ,as non- surgeons, we are qualified to judge only the most apparently egregious acts of a surgeon that lead to death, and even then it is quite possible that we could still be in error as to wether what was done constitutes a "murder".

The claim was made that police unions protect the police by claiming what is essentially the same thing- that people not intimately familiar with that job are ill qualified to pass judgment on how it is performed.
Right, thanks. Slight difference here, in your anaolgy we are all observers in the operating theatre so I think your analogy fails to help establish your conclusion.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:07 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How so?
If police aren't trusted by a community investigations are going to be stymied time and time again. If you police on the whole "by consent" people will want to and will help the police do their jobs.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:10 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If police aren't trusted by a community investigations are going to be stymied time and time again. If you police on the whole "by consent" people will want to and will help the police do their jobs.
Yet, the police are generally trusted by the community.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:11 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How so?
Community tips, C.I.'s, cooperative witnesses at trial, jurors who believe in the institutions, etc.

It's a downward spiral. As the underlying casework and classic procedure become less successful, more coercive/aggressive style strategies become the norm, furthering the distrust. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:34 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yet, the police are generally trusted by the community.
What survey is that from?

Depends on which community you are talking about..
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:42 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
What survey is that from?

Depends on which community you are talking about..
How large a portion of communities need to trust in the police, and by what margin, do you think is required to make the assertion that the police are "generally" trusted?
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:44 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If police aren't trusted by a community investigations are going to be stymied time and time again. If you police on the whole "by consent" people will want to and will help the police do their jobs.
Again, the majority of Americans do "consent" to policing- with little change from the way it is currently done.

Do the majority of Americans not constitute "the community"
How big of a minority must be unhappy with it in order for one to be able to claim that "the community" is unhappy with it?
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:52 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How large a portion of communities need to trust in the police, and by what margin, do you think is required to make the assertion that the police are "generally" trusted?
How large? How about a majority?

To assert that the police are "generally trusted " requires some kind of data gathering and not your best guess..
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:57 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Again, the majority of Americans do "consent" to policing- with little change from the way it is currently done.

Do the majority of Americans not constitute "the community"
How big of a minority must be unhappy with it in order for one to be able to claim that "the community" is unhappy with it?

How about when the minority is being disproportionately targeted by the police?


Why would the majority have a problem with making changes that addresses that discrepancy?
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Old 11th July 2020, 12:02 PM   #1377
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Right, thanks. Slight difference here, in your anaolgy we are all observers in the operating theatre so I think your analogy fails to help establish your conclusion.
I don't understand your claim here. Would you be willing to explain it again?
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Old 11th July 2020, 12:16 PM   #1378
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I have little doubt that most of us consent to policing when the presumption is that the choice is what we have, or no police. Unless one can come up with some evidence, I'd be less inclined to believe that most of us consent to the policing we have now, if the alternative is better policing.
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:10 PM   #1379
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A new suggestion, or an old one with a new name: Unbundling the police.
Quote:
The #Unbundle concept, first coined by the music entrepreneur Trevor McFedries, is best thought of not as an alternative to defunding but as a kind of framework to see how bloated modern police work has become—and how a bit of disentangling could make cities safer places for everyone.

When people think about the police, they might imagine a group of law-enforcement officers whose only job is to do the sort of stuff you see in cop shows, such as investigate murders and chase down meanies who steal Grandma’s purse on the street. But police work is a bundle of services, and much of it has little to do with the violent crime that shows up on television.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...police/612913/
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:18 PM   #1380
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A new suggestion, or an old one with a new name: Unbundling the police.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...police/612913/
I don't think there is much disagreement (even among police themselves) that they are ,in many situations, a sledgehammer asked to be used to thread a needle.
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:24 PM   #1381
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How large? How about a majority?

To assert that the police are "generally trusted " requires some kind of data gathering and not your best guess..
Unsurprisingly, as a survey quoted by the NY Times last year, the trust in police depends on which community you live in.
“...more than 70 percent of white Americans said police officers treated racial and ethnic groups equally at least some of the time, just half of Hispanic Americans and only a third of black Americans said the same...”
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:28 PM   #1382
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Unsurprisingly, as a survey quoted by the NY Times last year, the trust in police depends on which community you live in.
“...more than 70 percent of white Americans said police officers treated racial and ethnic groups equally at least some of the time, just half of Hispanic Americans and only a third of black Americans said the same...”
A majority of Americans trust the police.
A majority of black Americans desire more police.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/u...ry-police.html
From link:
However, when it comes to policing and crime, black attitudes elude simple explanations. In polling, black people often express disgust at police racism yet support more funding for police. A 2015 Gallup poll found that black adults who believed police treated black people unfairly were also more likely to desire a larger police presence in their local area than those who thought police treated black people fairly. A 2019 Vox poll found that despite being the racial group with the most unfavorable view of the police, most black people still supported hiring more police officers. And more recently, a June 2020 Yahoo News/YouGov survey taken after the killing of George Floyd found that 50 percent of black respondents still said that “we need more cops on the street,” even as 49 percent of black respondents said when they personally see a police officer it makes them feel “less secure.”
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:34 PM   #1383
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I have little doubt that most of us consent to policing when the presumption is that the choice is what we have, or no police. Unless one can come up with some evidence, I'd be less inclined to believe that most of us consent to the policing we have now, if the alternative is better policing.
Better policing at what cost, though?
Would we be fine with the police we have if police that were %5 better cost us 100% more?
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Old 11th July 2020, 04:57 PM   #1384
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Quote:
Would we be fine with the police we have if police that were %5 better cost us 100% more?
5% Less harassment and summary execution of minorities?

I think we can do better than that at considerably less cost..

Exactly what do you feel " policing " entails?
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Old 11th July 2020, 05:32 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
5% Less harassment and summary execution of minorities?

I think we can do better than that at considerably less cost..

Exactly what do you feel " policing " entails?
Removing bad actors from the populace.
Full stop.
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Old 11th July 2020, 09:56 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Removing bad actors from the populace.
Full stop.
I think that is a very frightening idea when put that way, which is, I suspect, the way many police see their job as well.

But if we are going to live in a reasonably civilized and humane society, we are going to have to limit that removal to people who are acting badly, which is a very different thing from being (or being perceived as) a bad actor, and to remember that the job of removal is shared with a justice system.

Maybe your expression is ambiguous, but "removing bad actors from the populace" implies giving the police power to decide who the bad actors are, without action directly attributed, and to eliminate them as they choose.

I count myself lucky indeed that I live far from whatever sinkhole of iniquity you inhabit, and I hope that whatever dystopian police state you advocate will be slow to reach here.
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:38 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Removing bad actors from the populace.
Full stop.
By killing them, or should putting them in prison suffice?

In any case there are plenty of crimes whose penalty is not a custodial sentence. Including rampant corruption and lying to Congress, apparently, according to the current POTUS.
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Old 12th July 2020, 06:50 AM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
By killing them, or should putting them in prison suffice?

In any case there are plenty of crimes whose penalty is not a custodial sentence. Including rampant corruption and lying to Congress, apparently, according to the current POTUS.
Indeed, one of the problems of Distracted1's simplistic definition is that it could be used to justify the actions of rioters and assassins, kangaroo courts and lynch mobs, removing bad actors the police can or will not handle.
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Old 12th July 2020, 08:27 AM   #1389
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The author explores the role of firearms in police/civilian interaction.
Quote:
American police kill about 1,000 people every year. Adjusted for population, that body count is five times higher than that in Sweden, 30 times higher than that in Germany, and 100 times higher than that in the United Kingdom.

Many differences between the U.S. and the European Union can partly explain these gaps, including our history of systemic racism and our porous social safety net. But without the mention of guns, no explanation for America’s record of police violence is complete.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...debate/613258/
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Old 12th July 2020, 10:29 AM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Removing bad actors from the populace.
Full stop.

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
By killing them, or should putting them in prison suffice?

In any case there are plenty of crimes whose penalty is not a custodial sentence. Including rampant corruption and lying to Congress, apparently, according to the current POTUS.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Indeed, one of the problems of Distracted1's simplistic definition is that it could be used to justify the actions of rioters and assassins, kangaroo courts and lynch mobs, removing bad actors the police can or will not handle.

Exactly - deciding on guilt or innocence and and sentencing is not the role of the police.


Deciding that the overriding role of the police is not to protect the public, nor even to keep the peace, but instead to remove bad actors, promotes tyranny because there's a pressure to lock up ten innocent people in order to be sure of catching a single criminal. There's a reason why the burden of proof in a criminal trial is so high. Because the state should not commit wrongs on its innocent citizens, who are supposedly equal in sight of the law.

It promotes a lack of oversight of the police, and allows them to act as they see fit, with the figleaf of trying to remove bad actors - when often they would end up being the worst actors.

If the role is simply to remove bad actors, just issue the police with nukes. Sure, a lot of innocent people would be killed, but hey, at least some people killed would have been guilty of something.


Judge Dredd was intended as a satire not a role-model.
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Old 12th July 2020, 10:33 AM   #1391
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The author explores the role of firearms in police/civilian interaction.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...debate/613258/
I had pointed out something similar on another thread, drawing data from the Washington Posts database. Of a thousand people killed by police, only 55 were unarmed. Gotta say that seems significant.
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Old 12th July 2020, 10:34 AM   #1392
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If police aren't trusted by a community investigations are going to be stymied time and time again. If you police on the whole "by consent" people will want to and will help the police do their jobs.
IME, if an assault happened outside in the street, depending on the street, the residents would queue up to give statements to the police to help catch those involved, or they would all claim they had seen nothing.

Those two streets could literally be a few streets apart.
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Old 12th July 2020, 10:34 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Removing bad actors from the populace.
Full stop.
Sure hope their judgement is failsafe.
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Old 12th July 2020, 11:49 AM   #1394
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I had pointed out something similar on another thread, drawing data from the Washington Posts database. Of a thousand people killed by police, only 55 were unarmed. Gotta say that seems significant.
But were the rest in fact armed? Or is that just what the police thought or claimed they thought when they opened fire? And were the weapons always guns? Or are cops shooting people who possess any object that could conceivably be used as a weapon?

I don't think those numbers are the whole picture. Tamar Rice and Philandro Castile were "armed" in the narrowest sense, but they were no threat to anybody. The key question is are cops killing people who are not an immediate threat to their lives?
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Old 12th July 2020, 11:56 AM   #1395
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But were the rest in fact armed? Or is that just what the police thought or claimed they thought when they opened fire? And were the weapons always guns? Or are cops shooting people who possess any object that could conceivably be used as a weapon?

I don't think those numbers are the whole picture. Tamar Rice and Philandro Castile were "armed" in the narrowest sense, but they were no threat to anybody. The key question is are cops killing people who are not an immediate threat to their lives?
I clicked on some stories linked to the WaPo database somewhat randomly till I got bored. They were linked to news stories, and all I linked (randomly) to reported guns and suspects firing on police, or aggressively attacking with other conventional deadly weapons. Didn't see any about toys or anything, but a thousand articles seems like rather a lot to sort through. As the data is from media reporting, are you claiming Fake News?
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Old 12th July 2020, 01:13 PM   #1396
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I clicked on some stories linked to the WaPo database somewhat randomly till I got bored. They were linked to news stories, and all I linked (randomly) to reported guns and suspects firing on police, or aggressively attacking with other conventional deadly weapons. Didn't see any about toys or anything, but a thousand articles seems like rather a lot to sort through. As the data is from media reporting, are you claiming Fake News?
Media reports are largely based on what the police themselves say, and the local media generally repeat their accounts accurately. That's not fake news, but it's not always the whole picture. Reporters don't usually have other sources in these matters. It's only in this age of a camera in every pocket that a more complete picture is being revealed. The police first claimed George Floyd died of a drug overdose while resisting arrest instead of being choked to death. Police first claimed that Laquan MacDonald was attacking them with a knife instead of running away. The Atlanta cop first claimed that Rayshard Brooks was threatening his life with his own Taser instead of running away. Walter Scott was running away, and the cop who killed him planted his Taser on the body. What would the final word about these be if there were no videos? Stephon Clark was "armed" with what turned out to be his cell phone. Etc., etc.

And even if someone was "armed," one way or another, the question is still did the cops have to kill him instead of arresting him? I suspect that the majority of police killings are probably justified. But that still leaves a lot of bodies in the streets for no good reason.

And here's the WP database. Even clicking on the first few brings up some UNarmed victims.

And here's your hero in blue at work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6UzGIxQ_Qg

Without the video he would have walked.
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Old 12th July 2020, 01:22 PM   #1397
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I had pointed out something similar on another thread, drawing data from the Washington Posts database. Of a thousand people killed by police, only 55 were unarmed. Gotta say that seems significant.
i wonder what the numbers would look like if you could weed out the cases in which a cop planted a gun on his victim.
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Old 12th July 2020, 01:49 PM   #1398
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The minorities that end up dead are only the tip of a very large iceberg.
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Old 12th July 2020, 03:47 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Sure hope their judgement is failsafe.
That is asking a lot.
Doctors spend the better part of a decade training, practicing, and being mentored and reviewed-and still manage to make mistakes that cost (by some estimates) up to 100,000 lives per year

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1117251/
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Old 12th July 2020, 03:49 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think that is a very frightening idea when put that way, which is, I suspect, the way many police see their job as well.

But if we are going to live in a reasonably civilized and humane society, we are going to have to limit that removal to people who are acting badly, which is a very different thing from being (or being perceived as) a bad actor, and to remember that the job of removal is shared with a justice system.

Maybe your expression is ambiguous, but "removing bad actors from the populace" implies giving the police power to decide who the bad actors are, without action directly attributed, and to eliminate them as they choose.

I count myself lucky indeed that I live far from whatever sinkhole of iniquity you inhabit, and I hope that whatever dystopian police state you advocate will be slow to reach here.
How is a "bad actor" defined- if not as someone who is (or has) acted badly?

The determination as to how long a bad actor is to be held separate from the populace is, of course, made by the justice system. Yet the actual removal is performed by the police- the assistant DA is not the one out there subduing someone with a murder warrant.

And yes, in most cases the police investigate reported crimes to determine who the bad actors are. Who else?
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