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Old 8th June 2020, 10:19 AM   #121
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
We're back to apologetics.
Not really.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:22 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Put it back. It's important Bristol isn't allowed to whitewash it's past and avoid scrutiny.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well that's true.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:22 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Looks at the black community*

Sorry, guess the statues have to stay up. The white folk ain't done talking about where the line goes.

It will be a hundred years from now and in the discussion we'll being swapping out the perfectly spherical statues in a trolley problem piece until no original piece remains over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a frictionless vacuum that's not technically in the Champagne region of France......and the goddamn statutes will still be there in real life.
I've probably mentioned about a dozen times that I'm not necessarily against such statues being taken down, but you can carry on sobbing and wailing as though I had, if you like.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:23 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To JoeMorgue,

You see, Joe. It isn't some right wing bogeyman.

It isn't some slippery slope fallacy.

I've been persuaded that statues of Confederate generals don't belong, and especially not in abundance, but let's be careful out there. You can throw out an awful lot of good with the bad. If you let the mob throw out Colston, and they enjoy it, they're going to look for other opportunities. It's human nature.
I don't give one tin-penny company **** about any of that nonsense.

Yet again we're a point where we can make the lives of black people a little bit better and yet again your standing there going "Okay but we have to talk more." That's what I care about.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:23 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I reckon there are a lot of Britons who have learned more about the British slave trade since the statue got chucked in the Avon than they did at school.
Very likely, given what I saw the last time I saw a GCSE history text.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Online Poll result says that the statue should be replace with one of Shaun the Sheep.
Paul Stephenson.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:28 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do give one tin-penny company **** about any of that nonsense.

Yet again we're a point where we can make the lives of black people a little bit better and yet again your standing there going "Okay but we have to talk more." That's what I care about.
Hold onto your hat, but I think we can actually strive to do both. Talk more about it and act accordingly.

I'm not against removing very dubious ties to a less tasteful history, but that doesn't mean I'm all gung-ho for a drunken mob mentality of just destroying the things we don't agree with. As Bob Hoskins once said, "it's good to talk."
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:30 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Hold onto your hat, but I think we can actually strive to do both.
No we can't because we aren't going to do anything while we have people sitting here doing the whole mealy-mouth "Lookit me handwring!" routine. That routine is EXACTLY why they statues are still up.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:36 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No we can't because we aren't going to do anything while we have people sitting here doing the whole mealy-mouth "Lookit me handwring!" routine. That routine is EXACTLY why they statues are still up.
Well if you want to get technical, you're not going to change anything by sitting on the ISF talking to me about hand-wringing, either, mate.

I don't know what this obsession you have with hand-wringing is, but my hands are calmly typing away on this laptop. We always have time to talk about these things, we're members of a forum, it's literally what we do.

By all means, you can go out and tear whatever you want down, I won't stop you, but I might ask you a few questions about it when you get back.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:37 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In 1895, when the statue of Colston was erected in 1895 175 years after his death. That's the same year that Oscar Wilde was arrested for homosexuality and the Army was attacking the Ashanti Empire in modern day Ghana and slaughtering them into submission.

Appropriate that it was thrown in the dock as at least 20,000 of his ‘cargo’ died and their bodies thrown in to the sea.
I'm sure the death rate was within the level allowed by law.

The acceptable death rate, for those of you not familiar with British history and the "Triangular Trade", set at 2% by parliament in the Slave Trade Act 1788, resulting from the Wilberforce Committee.
This act set limits on the number of slaves a ship could carry (1.67 per ton).

Generally the space allocated was:
Adult male: six feet x sixteen inches
Adult female:, five feet x sixteen inches
Adolescent male: five feet x fourteen inches
Adolescent female: four feet six x twelve inches

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A crowd has climbed onto the statue of colonial King Léopold II in Brussels chanting “murderer” and waving the flag of the Democratic Republic of Congo
It's hard to argue with that.
Well actually it's impossible given the history of Belgium in the Congo, and the unwillingness of Belgians to admit their past.
I wonder where Michel H is?
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:39 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't give one tin-penny company **** about any of that nonsense.

Yet again we're a point where we can make the lives of black people a little bit better and yet again your standing there going "Okay but we have to talk more." That's what I care about.
Well, a problem with your posts, consistently, is that you don't give a tin-penny whatever about anything except your very narrow interests.

However, those who create policy have to be broader than that, and those of us who discuss these issues as a hobby sometimes consider the broader implications.

Nevertheless, I support removing most statues of Robert E. Lee and other Confederate notables, but I will continue to discuss broader issues around when, how, and which statues ought to removed, with or without your tin-pennies.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:39 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Good on 'em!

For those who don't know why:

Congo Free State

A genocide for which Belgium has never adequately paid.

Of course, the U.S. has never adequately paid for several genocides either (Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.).
Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost,
Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host.
Hear how the demons chuckle and yell,
Cutting his hands off, down in Hell.


ETA: I probably should add that amputation of the right hand was a common "punishment" in Leopold's genocidal slave state. And also a measure to ensure the Force Publique, native Janissaries, didn't waste ammunition
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Last edited by catsmate; 8th June 2020 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:40 AM   #132
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I hope if any of you every get into a car accident the paramedics spend 20 minutes debating about whether or car is a coupe or a sedan before rescuing you.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:45 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'm getting too old for this, but if anyone wants to come to New Hampshire and take down a few Franklin Pierce statues, I certainly won't stand in your way.

Franklin_PierceWP
Ah, the Man Without A Chin.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:46 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You keep mentioning this insurance on 20,000 people killed and thrown into the sea; do you have a source for that? It strikes me that the insurance company marketing that particular policy must have gone broke.
In the Wikipedia article about the statue of Edward Colston it says that more than 20,000 African men died during the voyage. I think Captain Swoop has translated "died during the voyage" into "killed and thrown into the sea".

Not completely unfairly. Surely the slavers were responsible for their deaths, but I think the words paint an inaccurate picture.

Their lawyers weren't as detailed and verbose as we are today, but I'm guessing that even then the insurance policies refused to pay in cases where the deaths were deliberate. Even back then I'm sure that insurance companies had some way of protecting themselves against people who would deliberately create a coverable insurance event.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:46 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I hope if any of you every get into a car accident the paramedic spend 20 minutes debating about whether or car is a coupe or a sedan before rescuing you.
Totally the same thing as what we're discussing.

I often wonder why we even have a forum, since nobody is interested in having an actual discussion that doesn't involve stone-throwing and petty squabbles. Do you all act like this in person, or just on forums?
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:47 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Put it back. It's important Bristol isn't allowed to whitewash it's past and avoid scrutiny.
How is tearing down a statue of a slave trader avoiding scrutiny of Bristol's past? Couldn't scrutiny better be served by, say, a memorial to the slaves? Or, as I've said previously, a statue of important black people from history? My suggestion was the men who created and led the Bristol bus boycott - it's still the history of the town, it's appropriate because it replaces a racist with people who campaigned against racism, and it's filling a space emptied by a protest with a statue to people who instigated a protest.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:48 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The highlighted seems particularly ... I don't think 'ironic' really covers it.
Not really, he was (to use the tired phrase) a man of his times. Remember the Atlantic Slave Trade was regulated by law, laws debated in, and voted by, the Mother of Parliaments.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:49 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Looks at the black community*

Sorry, guess the statues have to stay up. The white folk ain't done talking about where the line goes.

It will be a hundred years from now and in the discussion we'll being swapping out the perfectly spherical statues in a trolley problem piece until no original piece remains over an infinite plane of uniform gravity in a frictionless vacuum that's not technically in the Champagne region of France......and the goddamn statutes will still be there in real life.
How about simply "those who made great strides towards freedom and equality, even if incomplete and imperfect, versus those who made great efforts to reduce equality and freedom"?

Doesn't seem to be that hard.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:50 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Next time you guys sing 'Amazing Grace', remember who wrote it!
A man who realised the evils of slavery? Who campaigned to end it? Who lived to see the trade banned by a law he'd helped create?
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:51 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How about simply "those who made great strides towards freedom and equality, even if incomplete and imperfect, versus those who made great efforts to reduce equality and freedom"?

Doesn't seem to be that hard.
It is not hard. Yet people seem determined to make it so and pretend like that determination has no negative consequences.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:57 AM   #141
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In Liverpool, one proposal we had a long time ago was to change one of the names of the streets in the city center from its former name pertaining to a slave owner/trader, to something that honoured Anthony Walker.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...street-3516881

One obvious problem people couldn't agree on was that Penny Lane itself would be something that would have to be changed, and obviously Beatles fans worldwide got their mop tops all bent out of shape over it.

Ms Hyatt urged Liverpool City Council to keep the debate about the slavery street names open.

She said: "It has to be a public debate. At the end of the day, the people in power are white and black people should be given a say."


Also from the article:

But Tony Excell, chairman of the Campaign Against Racial Terrorism (CART), said street names should not be changed.

He said: "We don't really believe there is any need to remove slave-traders' names, because that is effectively wiping out an important part of history.

"We condemn the decision to recognise and reward these people in the first place, but that was many years ago.

"But there are people who were significant in the abolition of the slave trade who we also think should be recognised in the same way."
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:58 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It is not hard. Yet people seem determined to make it so and pretend like that determination has no negative consequences.
You're the only person who appears to be finding simple discussion difficult.
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Old 8th June 2020, 10:58 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The ruling classes get to put up the statues.
And everyone else gets to remove them. Like this, or this, or this, or this, or this.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:00 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Okay, so let's not celebrate the British Empire.
An excellent idea. You tell the Brits.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:07 AM   #145
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Changing a street name isn't "wiping out an important part of history". Just like erecting statues, street names aren't created to teach or record or preserve history. They are acts of speech, designed to communicate that a person, place, or thing is worthy of special honor. It is okay to remove the statue or change the street name as another, separate act of speech intended to communicate that the present public no longer considers that person, place, or thing worthy of special honor. Doing so does not "delete them" from history like some kind of Twilight Zone gimmick.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:09 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You keep mentioning this insurance on 20,000 people killed and thrown into the sea; do you have a source for that? It strikes me that the insurance company marketing that particular policy must have gone broke.
Or you could go and find it for yourself; we live in the most information rich period in human history (so far). It would have take you less time to find the information yourself that type that post.

Insuring the Transatlantic Slave Trade

Quote:
One important, but overlooked, risk mitigation device that facilitated the growth of the slave trade in the eighteenth century was the increasing availability of insurance for ships and their human cargoes. In this article we explore, for the first time, the relative cost of insurance for British slave traders, the underlying processes by which this key aspect of the business of slavery was conducted, and the factors behind price and other changes over time. Comparisons are also drawn with the transatlantic slave trades of other nations. As well as analyzing the business of underwriting slave voyages, we have two other objectives. First, we explore the meaning of slave insurance from the perspective of those directly involved in the trade. Was it about insuring lives or goods? Second, we provide new estimates of the importance of the slave trade to U.K. marine insurance. Did the former drive the growth of the latter, as Joseph Inikori has claimed?
Quote:
A critical factor enabling the transatlantic slave trade to grow to such dimensions was the ability of the merchants to find ways to mitigate not only the usual risks of trans-oceanic commerce in a pre-industrial age, but also those risks peculiar to the trade itself. The latter included high crew and slave morbidity rates, highly variable loading rates and ocean crossing times and the difficulties of provisioning for these, the moral hazard of crew neglecting their cargoes or trading for themselves, losses caused through shipboard slave revolt or resistance, and a variety of transaction risks, including exchange value uncertainties, price volatility and planter credit default in the purchase of new slaves. Historians have noted how failure to manage such risks undermined the trading capacities of some companies involved in the slaving business
Quote:
On 29 November 1781 the master of the Zong, a Liverpool slaver becalmed in the doldrums and running out of provisions, threw 132 living slaves overboard on the assumption that insurance would cover the loss. When the underwriters refused the claim the owners successfully sued. The underwriters applied for a retrial. At the Kings Bench in May 1783 Lord Mansfield and his fellow judges ruled in favor of the applicants, finding that there was no evidence that the loss had been occasioned by “perils of the sea” covered by the standard marine insurance policy.
Two years later Mansfield adjudicated another case, where a Bristol ship had lost 55 slaves during a revolt off the coast of Africa. The dispute centered on which losses the underwriters were liable for under the slave insurrection clause in the policy. The court ruled that they were to compensate for slaves shot dead or who died from wounds incurred directly in the struggle, but that they were not liable for deaths by other means, such as drowning, jumping overboard, or “abstinence” from despair at the failure of the uprising.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:14 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Changing a street name isn't "wiping out an important part of history". Just like erecting statues, street names aren't created to teach or record or preserve history. They are acts of speech, designed to communicate that a person, place, or thing is worthy of special honor. It is okay to remove the statue or change the street name as another, separate act of speech intended to communicate that the present public no longer considers that person, place, or thing worthy of special honor. Doing so does not "delete them" from history like some kind of Twilight Zone gimmick.
I don't necessarily disagree, but if that's the case, why even change them at all? Most people don't even know who James Penny was, for instance.

I'd be happy to see an "Anthony Walker Square", to be honest, as would a lot of people. I wouldn't, however, like to see the beautifully constructed town hall knocked down because of its links to slavery. I'm weird like that.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:19 AM   #148
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Apparently, our old fat mayor, Joe Anderson, has said that plaques will be put up to highlight information about street names with a link to slavery.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...links-18380746
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:48 AM   #149
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The desire to preserve some nice, gauzy memory of our ancestors is inexplicable to me. The inability to say that someone was a bad person even if they did some good things seems like the height of intellectual laziness. Cognitive dissonance has become an insult rather than the sign of a thinker it's supposed to be.

George Washington was a hero of the American Revolution and he was a racist piece of **** who committed the terrible crime of keeping slaves. One does not negate the other, but the latter is bad enough that it should be brought up any time one brings up the former.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:49 AM   #150
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Here is Michigan we have a lot of places named after Lewis Cass. He was a Governor (of the territory of Michigan) Senator (of the State of Michigan), presidential candidate, cabinet member, and generally powerful guy in the early 19th century. And, surprise, surprise, he was a racist. He didn't treat the Indians very nicely, and he didn't vote to limit slavery to existing territories.

Periodically, people get all bent out of shape about his name being on so many things. In my humble opinion, I can see why people would prefer that he not be remembered, except that he was a creature of his times, and, even more important, it would be a lot of work to rename towns, and the mail would probably get lost for a while. Not very many people even know who he is. (I kind of wondered, but I didn't know until NPR had a piece on him one day when I was listening.)
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:57 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Statue deserved to go down. The guy was a freaking slave trader he is more directly guilty then the Confederate generals (though their statues should go also.
Of course a dirty little secret is that a lot of the great British Trading Fortunes were founfrf on "The Blackbird Trade".
This is an interesting thread on that:

https://twitter.com/tonys2009/status...56654683013122

Quote:
Re: Bristol & slavery.

I worked for a while in a shop at the top of Blackboy Hill. (Named for it's participation in the trade.)

The shop had the warehouse in cellars. Several smaller rooms off a larger main room.

In the walls of the small rooms, there were ...
Worth a read to get even some of the obscenity of the infrastructure of slavery.
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:00 PM   #152
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Hey why isn't the Jimmy Savile statue included in this talks of important historic statues that totally shouldn't be torn down over being a creature of their times?
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:12 PM   #153
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The desire to preserve some nice, gauzy memory of our ancestors is inexplicable to me. The inability to say that someone was a bad person even if they did some good things seems like the height of intellectual laziness. Cognitive dissonance has become an insult rather than the sign of a thinker it's supposed to be.

George Washington was a hero of the American Revolution and he was a racist piece of **** who committed the terrible crime of keeping slaves. One does not negate the other, but the latter is bad enough that it should be brought up any time one brings up the former.
It's just a part of our nature.

You'd have a hard time finding any one person who was innocent of any type of wrongdoing during their existence. Colston's involvement with the slave trade was obviously not going to win him any awards, but his generosity towards others was something he was apparently given a monument for...

It's a weird part of humanity that we're a part of something we don't and can't always agree with.

Should Colston's statue still stand? I don't care, I didn't care that it stood and I don't care that it now no longer stands, but it's a question for everyone, isn't it?

Grantham wanted a Thatcher statue, everyone else said nah, mate.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ed-in-grantham

I can sort of see why some of them want it, and yet I can totally see why people don't want it. Was Thatcher someone to celebrate? Was Colston?
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:16 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It's just a part of our nature.

You'd have a hard time finding any one person who was innocent of any type of wrongdoing during their existence. Colston's involvement with the slave trade was obviously not going to win him any awards, but his generosity towards others was something he was apparently given a monument for...
Exactly, so what if he raped some kids, that doesn't undermine the charity work Jimmy Savile did one iota. We need to rebuilt his statue!
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey why isn't the Jimmy Savile statue included in this talks of important historic statues that totally shouldn't be torn down over being a creature of their times?
Now then, now then, now then!
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:19 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Now then, now then, now then!
Probably not going to work on this yank who knows him because of the long term rape hobby he had.
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:20 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly, so what if he raped some kids, that doesn't undermine the charity work Jimmy Savile did one iota. We need to rebuilt his statue!
You appear to be confusing me with someone who is opposed to the tearing down of statues.

I'm merely asking whether the eradication of such unfavourable monuments should extend further, and if so, how far?
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:22 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Probably not going to work on this yank who knows him because of the long term rape hobby he had.
And to think us Brits only know him because of that episode of Fix It where the chubby scout threw up on the roller-coaster!
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:50 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
This is an interesting thread on that:

https://twitter.com/tonys2009/status...56654683013122



Worth a read to get even some of the obscenity of the infrastructure of slavery.
Now that surprised me. I'm familiar with the "triangular trade" story of slaves taken directly from Africa to the West Indies and America, and the sugar, tobacco and cotton which was the produce of their labour shipped to Britain, but not that slaves were brought to Britain, specifically because as I understood it slavery was not lawful here (though plenty were happy to tolerate and profit from it overseas). Is it really the case that African slaves were held in Bristol?
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:51 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Is that everyone else's take on it, though? Because if that's the case, I'd agree with it, but I don't know if that's the stance being taken by everyone involved in tearing it down, tbh.
Well, given that the earlier suggested compromise that was rejected was a second plaque explaining where his fortune came from, it seems likely that at least some people are taking that stance.
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