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Tags Jay Inslee , protest incidents , Seattle incidents , Seattle issues

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Old 15th June 2020, 12:23 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
“Metaphorically speaking” meaning completely invented out of whole cloth? Just for the sake of my curiosity could you please indicate what parts of your highlighted post are facts rather than “metaphors?” And what is your source for this information?

Thanks.
You know what a metaphor is, don't you ?

Suppose, just suppose there was a source mentioned in the post I was responding to. Suppose I was actually able to research multiple sites for multiple viewpoints on this particular incident and suppose I was able to piece together that brief narrative I wrote, base solely on fact, with a couple of literary devices to continue a theme that previously popped up in this thread.

Now having been down this road ( not a literal road, but a figure of speech ) before where the baying mob ( not literally....or is it ? ) on a previous thread is unable to function without their sources being handed to them I shall enact the labour of posting a link so that the source itself can be attacked rather than the content that proves my somewwhat dramatic point.

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Old 16th June 2020, 12:38 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Yeah, there is clearly a misinformation campaign going on from the right. Maybe I'm just jaded, or overly cynical, but I don't trust the other side to show the unvarnished truth.
Isn't that what the right always says when it knows it's in the wrong?

Dave
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Old 16th June 2020, 04:08 AM   #163
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Proud boys showed up at the CHAZ yesterday, assaulted a man, and smashed his phone.

Taking part in the assault and robbery was Tiny Toese, who is currently on probation for other violent crimes.

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/...18909737586688
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Old 16th June 2020, 06:28 AM   #164
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Seattle City Council unanimously voted to ban SPD from owning, purchasing, or using any crowd control weapons including tear gas, kinetic impact weapons (rubber bullets and similar weapons), water cannons, and acoustic weapons.

The council cited a lack of trustworthiness with these weapons.

The council also banned chokeholds and concealing bad numbers.

it's not just CHOP anarchists who have had enough of the SPD's brutality.

https://q13fox.com/2020/06/15/seattl...ng-chokeholds/
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:01 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Proud boys showed up at the CHAZ yesterday, assaulted a man, and smashed his phone.

Taking part in the assault and robbery was Tiny Toese, who is currently on probation for other violent crimes.

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/...18909737586688
It was 5 Proud Boys on one dude and they couldn't drop him. Then they ran off like scared kittens when one other guy strolled up. That's about as cowardly as you get.

No tags on the minivan they were in, which is a little weird.
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:09 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Isn't that what the right always says when it knows it's in the wrong?

Dave
Not sure how my belief that everyone in the media are lying (or showing only the facts that fit their pre-determined narrative), is a right wing point. But, then again, I don't watch either media.
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:32 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Not sure how my belief that everyone in the media are lying (or showing only the facts that fit their pre-determined narrative), is a right wing point.
It seems to be what the right wing say whenever they get caught lying; "Yes, we lied, but we're sure that you tell lies too even though we can't think of any at the moment, so that proves you're exactly as bad as we are."

Dave
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Old 16th June 2020, 07:39 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seattle City Council unanimously voted to ban SPD from owning, purchasing, or using any crowd control weapons including tear gas, kinetic impact weapons (rubber bullets and similar weapons), water cannons, and acoustic weapons.

The council cited a lack of trustworthiness with these weapons.

The council also banned chokeholds and concealing bad numbers.

it's not just CHOP anarchists who have had enough of the SPD's brutality.

https://q13fox.com/2020/06/15/seattl...ng-chokeholds/
So they banned non-lethal weapons, because they don't trust them to use them correctly, but are letting them keep the lethal ones?

I kinda get the ban on chokeholds. The problem is, they aren't really that dangerous when correctly applied. It's been used in various martial arts for centuries without incident. Hundreds of people are probably choked out every day in gyms across America. Zero deaths. But if they are done with malice, then yes, they can turn deadly.

From the article, the Mayor has agreed to a bunch of things that I've no real issue with. Maybe not a flat ban on prosecution for protestors. I would have left some room to go after anyone who committed a major felony. I'm not saying any were committed, I would also accept they are few and far between, but I would leave that door open.

But it does appear that the SPD could use a fumigation. They may need to fire everyone and post some job openings with a different set of standards. Sure, some might get re-hired, but you could weed a ton of the problems out with a proper interview and resume review.

So I guess my problem is they are looking at the tools and policies, and blaming the violence on those tools and policies and not at the people wielding those tools. The funny thing is the occupiers have that right. But they aren't selling that message. Ironically, it's the same issue I have with gun control. So maybe they should co-op some of those messages.
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:26 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It seems to be what the right wing say whenever they get caught lying; "Yes, we lied, but we're sure that you tell lies too even though we can't think of any at the moment, so that proves you're exactly as bad as we are."

Dave
And that's a less and less defensible position to take in this era of live-feed video.

There are about a 1/2 dozen live feeds coming from CHAZ/CHOP at any given time. It is pretty easy to see quite a bit of what is happening without using the press at all.

Right now city workers are in there setting up cement traffic barriers. I think it may be to protect the "Black Live Matter" mural while still allowing some vehicle traffic along that street.
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Old 16th June 2020, 02:40 PM   #170
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Some of the barriers are being removed by the protesters. The city has added new barriers in different locations. Apparently the city and the protesters have worked out an arrangement for traffic flow, with fewer closed roads.

Right now, a broken down car is preventing reopening of one of the checkpoints.

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https://twitter.com/DeedeeKIRO7/stat...47152284471296
Quote:
Security from #CHAZ / #CHOP protest zone tells me they’re working with Seattle Fire, SDOT, and Public Utilities to change up some of the protest areas/ barricades and where emergency vehicles are allowed.

This is to improve first responder access.

https://twitter.com/DeedeeKIRO7/stat...14164004999168
Quote:
Big changes in the #CHAZ/ #CHOP this morning.

Seattle Fire and Department of Transportation moving the concrete barriers at 10th & E. Pine.

Part of protest area is opening up.

Fire Chief says this is part of the plan for improved emergency access.
@KIRO7Seattle
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Old 16th June 2020, 03:19 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If you guys are so keen on wealth redistribution, I could use some scratch. I call my autonomous zone 'Cops Unwelcome Near Thermal's Street'. Cash is fine.
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Old 16th June 2020, 03:31 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seattle City Council unanimously voted to ban SPD from owning, purchasing, or using any crowd control weapons including tear gas, kinetic impact weapons (rubber bullets and similar weapons), water cannons, and acoustic weapons.

The council cited a lack of trustworthiness with these weapons.

The council also banned chokeholds and concealing bad numbers.

it's not just CHOP anarchists who have had enough of the SPD's brutality.

https://q13fox.com/2020/06/15/seattl...ng-chokeholds/
So what happens next time rhere is a riot or a demonstration turns violent?
And they take away non lethal weapons, but let the police keep their guns?
I am beginning to smell a anarachist who basically wants no police, period.
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Old 16th June 2020, 04:10 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We do know what's going on. People come and go freely. Journalists have reported from within the CHAZ. Ordinary people are sharing their experience online all over. There's no hard border other than a flimsy barricade stopping traffic.

The right wing reporting on the matter is largely a work of fiction and propaganda.
Take for example, Trump, who continues to describe it as a large part of Seattle where protesters are out of control.

Never mind nothing is out of control, Trump has to have been told by now in terms a toddler can understand that this is a tiny dot on a Seattle map. So he continues to lie on purpose.
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Old 16th June 2020, 04:27 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I kinda get the ban on chokeholds. The problem is, they aren't really that dangerous when correctly applied. It's been used in various martial arts for centuries without incident. Hundreds of people are probably choked out every day in gyms across America. Zero deaths. But if they are done with malice, then yes, they can turn deadly.
Evidence? I mean, seriously, how many impossible absolutes and numbers pulled directly from your ass can you sling in one paragraph? Do you not see the wide, wide distance between two people participating in consensual erotic MMA play and what a cop might do (j/k - "will do") to a citizen against their will, a distance so wide that the two things have nothing whatsoever to do with each other?
Quote:
So I guess my problem is they are looking at the tools and policies, and blaming the violence on those tools and policies and not at the people wielding those tools. The funny thing is the occupiers have that right. But they aren't selling that message. Ironically, it's the same issue I have with gun control. So maybe they should co-op some of those messages.
Assuming people don't forget this **** anytime soon, one could presume that the proposals currently being adopted are only the first steps on a long road that, FSM willing, ends with us not having nearly as many armed cops roaming the streets looking for someone "with warrants" to pad their weekly arrest numbers.
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Old 16th June 2020, 04:39 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Yeah, there is clearly a misinformation campaign going on from the right. Maybe I'm just jaded, or overly cynical, but I don't trust the other side to show the unvarnished truth. They also have a motive to give us a dog and pony show.

I'm not sure the truth can ever be known, but if there is no confirmable harm, then ramping up the troops to restore law and order, in a place that already seems to have order, at least, seems to be a bit too aggressive. As we agree, it will eventually fail. So let it do that. If they have a better way of dealing with some of the uglier sides of human nature, we can learn from it and use it.

Of course, as noted, as a leaderless organization, any one can make up a set of "demands" and have just as much legitimacy and any other list. The one I saw, included (#16) "empty its “lost and found” and return property owned by denizens of the city" To whom, exactly? The problem of ownership is why it's in the Lost and Found I would think. There may be something missing but the demand doesn't really explain the problem. Reading the requirements of reclaiming property to be that onerous. Maybe it's a local homeless thing I'm not versed in, being out of state.
There are example after example of the alt-right promoting a false picture of the BLM protests.

What examples do you have of the BLM people or protesters purposefully doctoring photos, injecting false stories into social media and amplifying them and so on.

Yeah there have been some idiots looting and vandalizing and it's shameful. They are a small minority the news media likes to glom on to. As for this list of demands or that list, whether it is an autonomous zone or an occupy protest, and the stupid repeating phrase "defund the police", those are minor hiccoughs.

Clyburn says 'nobody is going to defund the police,' calls for 'reimagining' of law enforcement
Quote:
Rep. Jim Clyburn, D-S.C., made it clear on Sunday that despite the public rancor following the protests over the recent deaths of African-Americans involving law enforcement, Congress will not make moves to defund police departments.
Defund messaging only serves as a dog whistle for the right.


Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Not sure how my belief that everyone in the media are lying (or showing only the facts that fit their pre-determined narrative), is a right wing point. But, then again, I don't watch either media.
So you don't watch the media but you're sure there's equivalency on both sides?
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Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 16th June 2020 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 16th June 2020, 04:40 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So what happens next time rhere is a riot or a demonstration turns violent?
And they take away non lethal weapons, but let the police keep their guns?
I am beginning to smell a anarachist who basically wants no police, period.
Things must be bad in Seattle if all 9 city council members are anarchists.
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Old 16th June 2020, 06:56 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So what happens next time rhere is a riot or a demonstration turns violent?


The cops will have to find some other way to escalate it?
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Old 16th June 2020, 08:01 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Not sure how my belief that everyone in the media are lying (or showing only the facts that fit their pre-determined narrative), is a right wing point. But, then again, I don't watch either media.
I believe that the core of the right wing strategy absolutely is to convince the public that the mainstream media is lying to them. That way they can put forward any made-up crap to advance their own agenda without fear of being shot down by the facts. It is essential for Trump to succeed and, for much of the public, it has been successful. If someone can’t be convinced that Fox eg al. are the fountain of truth, at least they can be convinced that there is no place to turn to find the truth.

It is ironic because the mainstream media is largely ..mainstream. It possesses and typically reports news from a very middle class, moderate perspective. IMO there is a modest liberal tone because most reporters come from liberal backgrounds, but most reporters exert an effort to be professional and present as accurate an accounting as they can tell. This subconsciously colors how they report the news a bit, but unlike Fox et al. they do not routinely and intentionally make up stuff for purely political agendas. The result is imperfect but no less so for how they cover the far left as the far right.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:10 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think this particular type of hyperbole probably explains why you think the left leaning media is not warping reality. The idea that people have to ask not to be murdered by police is silly and has absolutely no basis in reality. It's extraordinarily easy to not be murdered by police and, yes, this includes people of color.
472 people shot by police so far in 2020.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019. Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.
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Old 16th June 2020, 09:35 PM   #180
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I don’t think that % of population is a fair measure. I want to start a thread on this, once things cool down a little. I have no doubt that it will be catnip to those uninterested in facts, but I’m going to try.
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Old 17th June 2020, 01:33 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
IIt's extraordinarily easy to not be murdered by police and, yes, this includes people of color.
This is a grossly misleading statement. You could just as well say that, as about 98% of people with Covid-19 survive, it's therefore relatively easy to survive the disease. But "easy" and "hard" are not relevant concepts to a situation over which you have little or no control. It's extraordinarily common to not be murdered by police; however, once the police have started escalating a previously peaceful situation, it can become quite impossible not to be murdered by them.

Dave
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Old 17th June 2020, 01:53 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yes, they are asking white people to give black people money.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/protes...give-out-cash/
Got a real source for that claim, rather than the Murdoch rag?
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Old 17th June 2020, 03:52 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I don't know...the word "infinitesimal" comes to mind.

Really. Some of the cases you posted I am familiar with. I even know a few you've not yet mentioned. Let's say we come up with fifty of them. The population of the US is still 300+ million.
So you are claiming that none of it matters because it was only a few ******* that were killed and there are plenty more where they came from.

Take a long hard look at who and what you are.
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Old 17th June 2020, 04:33 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
472 people shot by police so far in 2020.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019. Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.
Does this mean that 76% of the people who were killed by police were not black?
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Old 17th June 2020, 05:01 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
472 people shot by police so far in 2020.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019. Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.
I guess they should start killing white people more often then.
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Old 17th June 2020, 05:21 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I guess they should start killing white people more often then.
In order to stop the rioting or somehow appease the BLM Movement?
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Old 17th June 2020, 08:10 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah there have been some idiots looting and vandalizing and it's shameful. They are a small minority the news media likes to glom on to. As for this list of demands or that list, whether it is an autonomous zone or an occupy protest, and the stupid repeating phrase "defund the police", those are minor hiccoughs.

So you don't watch the media but you're sure there's equivalency on both sides?
So it's only the right wing media that gloms on to these small minorities of vandals?

Just because I don't watch MSNBC or CNN, doesn't mean I'm not familiar with their content. MSNBC wants to be Fox news, but lacks the skill. CNN wants to be pure news, but also lacks the skill to keep opinion out of reporting.

I can't point to the exact time or day it happened, but the news went from solid reporting of facts, to slightly veiled opinion pieces years ago. In the early 90's NBC was rigging trucks to blow up to get eyeballs. I don't need to keep touching fire to know it is hot.

And as bad as that is, social media is the worse. Saw a quick video on an "influencer" showing up to "clean up" after a riot. Borrowed a drill, faked some work, returned the drill, jumped back into her Mercedes and drove away. The only worthwhile twitter accounts are WeRateDogs and Thoughtsofdog.

I tend to watch local reporting, mostly in print, and avoid the cesspool that are the national channels. Hell, the weather channel has devolved from a place where you can get local and national weather information into mostly propaganda. Unwatchable. I'll stick to my local climatologist for the daily forecast.
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Old 17th June 2020, 08:47 AM   #188
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People may know of the plan for out-of-state patriots to “retake” Seattle from its residents on July 4th

While the event page dubiously calls for a peaceful conquest of the city, organizers and attendees are unambiguous about their violent intentions


Twitter thread documenting threats towards CHAZ/CHOP. Lots of rumors flying around about intentions to violently "retake" the area on July 4.

There are some seriously unhinged people out there.
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Old 17th June 2020, 08:51 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
People may know of the plan for out-of-state patriots to “retake” Seattle from its residents on July 4th

While the event page dubiously calls for a peaceful conquest of the city, organizers and attendees are unambiguous about their violent intentions


Twitter thread documenting threats towards CHAZ/CHOP. Lots of rumors flying around about intentions to violently "retake" the area on July 4.

There are some seriously unhinged people out there.
Sounds like a good thing for cops to handle.
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Old 17th June 2020, 08:56 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Sounds like a good thing for cops to handle.
No, "unhinged" people need to be dealt with by Social Workers. Get with the program!!
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Old 17th June 2020, 08:59 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Sounds like a good thing for cops to handle.
Given the history of local cops coordinating with right wing street fighters in Seattle and Portland in the past, there involvement may not be helpful anyway.
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Old 17th June 2020, 11:29 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
(...)
Every time I see someone declaring "both side are same reee", I see someone from side that bears most if not all of blame and trying to shift/dilute it. Nice try.
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Old 17th June 2020, 12:26 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Every time I see someone declaring "both side are same reee", I see someone from side that bears most if not all of blame and trying to shift/dilute it. Nice try.
That's pretty much an evergreen statement though.
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Old 17th June 2020, 12:33 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Are you saying, then, that non-violent protesting cannot possibly effect change? That the very act of protesting without damaging anything, is something easily ignored and brushed aside by those in power?
It can, but other methods, up to an including violence, are often more effective and faster.
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Old 17th June 2020, 12:57 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Every time I see someone declaring "both side are same reee", I see someone from side that bears most if not all of blame and trying to shift/dilute it. Nice try.
I didn't take a side. All I said was that I don't know and I'm perfectly fine with letting things work out organically without any intervention. The fact I acknowledge both sides are willing to lie about their circumstances to gain favor shouldn't be taken as a sign that I favor one side over another. I'm totally agnostic on this issue. I don't live there, it has no real impact on me, so I really don't give a ****.

I came into it to make a coffee joke. Then added some thoughts to keep it on topic. If you trust your favorite media to tell you the unvarnished truth, that's on you. But why is it your favorite? Does it conform to your already existing world view? How is that not a problem. Most of fox news consumers are there because it fits into their world view. Same with MSNBC and CNN. It's all commentary pretending to be news. And I see that as the problem. So I don't watch.
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Old 17th June 2020, 02:56 PM   #196
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OMG! Jim Jordan and Chabot (another GOP rep) are claiming Seattle is the only place in the country that has foregone law and order.

Now they are claiming rapes are occurring there, along with race based extortion.

This thing has really become a focus of an incredible-fear mongering campaign for some Republicans.
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Old 17th June 2020, 03:25 PM   #197
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Jim Jordan is too stupid to wear his suit jacket on the floor of the Senate, and he just said "Chaz Warlords" out loud in public. Maybe that's his secret gay porn name.
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Old 17th June 2020, 03:53 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Got a real source for that claim, rather than the Murdoch rag?
Is that some sort of attempt to disprove the content or is it just a bit of a whine about the platform hosting it ?
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Old 17th June 2020, 03:59 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Does this mean that 76% of the people who were killed by police were not black?
What it means is that a disproportionate number of non-white black people are being killed by police.

If you looked at the link, you'd see that 72% of those killed are non-white.
Yet they only make up 27% of the US population.

ETA: OK, those numbers are not good. 106 of the records for 2020 don't identify "race", so number that we can be more sure of are;
White - 182 = 50%. % of US population - 73%
Black - 100 = 27%. % of US population - 12.7%

Still disproportionate
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Old 17th June 2020, 04:01 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Is that some sort of attempt to disprove the content or is it just a bit of a whine about the platform hosting it ?
The New York Post is a worse source than Fox News. It's not whinging to ask for a better source.
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