ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 22nd June 2020, 06:52 AM   #81
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You are, of course, free to make up whatever opinions for me you wish.
And yet I gave you the opportunity for clarification instead. What would you say is the word that people should use to talk about human females of at least childbearing age, especially in civil rights contexts such as the Hellerstedt case?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 22nd June 2020 at 06:53 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 06:54 AM   #82
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,142
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, because I have better things to do think about than categorize individuals' behaviour according to arbitrary socially-conventional "behaviour templates."
So if you have no opinion about what makes a person effeminate that you are willing to share I am wondering why you are even joining in on this part of the discussion.

I am trying to find out what people consider makes a person "effeminate" and it is unhelpful if someone is going to be evasive about it.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 06:57 AM   #83
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,142
Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:01 AM   #84
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?
Sure: Empathy, kindness, deescalation, active listening, playing with dolls which don't have guns or kung-fu grip. Basically anything people generally consider girly/feminine instead of manly/masculine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 22nd June 2020 at 07:03 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:03 AM   #85
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,142
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Sure: Empathy, kindness, deescalation, active listening, playing with dolls which don't have guns or kung-fu grip.
It sounds like "effeminate" means "not a complete dickhead".
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:04 AM   #86
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,723
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A friend of mine (female) did the same thing recently.

I've only talked via Zoom since this happened, and not one on one, always in groups, since she made this announcement, so I don't have much insight into what's going on with their life. (She has requested the use of "they/them". I don't know if she is actually declaring herself to be transgender, or non-gender. Linguistically, "they/them" is just incredibly awkward.)

I don't feel like a jerk at all. I thought of her as a woman. I still think of her as a woman. I'll do my best to go along with her new declaration of identity. It's not likely that I'll ever have to behave any differently around her, anyway. It's not like I was trying to start some romance with her.

However, there are still issues. If she tries to shower with the men, I'll think she is a fool.
Well, in my case, it is someone I used to date. And things were semi-serious at one point. So I definitely feel as though I wasn't there for her correctly, because I never even dreamed she was dealing with all that. Prior to this reveal, I had sort of given up on being able to understand this topic. The debates around it were too heated, and I don't care who changes with me anyway, so I just felt there wasn't any place for me in the discussion. "I'll call people whatever they like. I'm good!" I said to myself. But now, it has struck me that those of us who think we aren't really affected by this issue might simply not be approachable to closeted trans people in our lives.

I hope that makes sense.
__________________
- Formerly isissxn
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:05 AM   #87
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
It sounds like "effeminate" means "not a complete dickhead".
I'm not about to dispute this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:05 AM   #88
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,142
And I question whether most people would consider empathy, kindness or active listening to be "girly" or "feminine" or that most people would consider these things to be unmasculine.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:08 AM   #89
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,723
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?
Well, the only person I've ever really heard call guys "effeminate" with any regularity is my dad. When he says it, it can mean all kinds of things. Usually some mix of skinny, soft-spoken, un-athletic, eats healthy, doesn't like action movies, wears jewelry, etc. It's actually hilariously regressive. When I was younger, I used to go on tirades and try to call the old man out, but his eyes just glaze over. Now, I merely give him a death glare if he says crap like "effeminate" or "unladylike" around me, and I change the subject as rapidly as possible.
__________________
- Formerly isissxn
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:12 AM   #90
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,723
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And I question whether most people would consider empathy, kindness or active listening to be "girly" or "feminine" or that most people would consider these things to be unmasculine.
Yeah, my parents have expressed this exact view. My mom has even told me, "Men who care about you will listen to your problem once. They don't want to hear you go over it and over it. That's the way women like to talk about things, and men don't have any patience for it. So if you don't want to fight, just remember to make your point once."

She cannot comprehend why I get so offended when she gives me this sage advice.
__________________
- Formerly isissxn
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:22 AM   #91
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And I question whether most people would consider empathy, kindness or active listening to be "girly" or "feminine" or that most people would consider these things to be unmasculine.
Trying to be nuanced for a change, I'd say there is one set of virtues more associated with masculinity than femininity, and a distinct set of virtues more associated with femininity than masculinity. Some of these virtues become foibles when you take them too far, e.g. when empathy becomes abnegation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 22nd June 2020 at 07:25 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:26 AM   #92
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,502
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Is there anyone who is willing to commit themselves on the traits or behaviours that they would consider would make a boy effeminate?

From my childhood and my observations of working the last few years with a lot of under 20 year olds it is still defined as “acting like a queer”.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:26 AM   #93
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,017
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What would you say is the word that people should use to talk about human females of at least childbearing age, especially in civil rights contexts such as the Hellerstedt case?
It depends on the exact context, and exactly what you mean by "should". In the context of an article about menstrual health, the menstrual health professionals decided it was "people who menstruate", for reasons already gone in to at length. It was Rowling who objected to that.

You keep trying to reframe this conversation as if it's me who's trying to dictate to other people what language they should use, as opposed to Rowling trying to dictate to professionals in a specific field that they should use her preferred terminology as opposed to their own.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:27 AM   #94
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,220
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So if you have no opinion about what makes a person effeminate that you are willing to share I am wondering why you are even joining in on this part of the discussion.

I am trying to find out what people consider makes a person "effeminate" and it is unhelpful if someone is going to be evasive about it.
You suggested it would be inconsistent for someone to hold both "transwomen are not women" and "effeminate boys exist" as true. I showed that to be false. If you want to find out what people consider makes a person "effeminate" then it would probably be more helpful to ask people who give such things some thought since I, as I indicated, have better things to think about than whatever random irredeemably daft nonsense those idiots *gestures vaguely at the world around him* managed to argue themselves into this time.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:35 AM   #95
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 22,046
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Well, in my case, it is someone I used to date. And things were semi-serious at one point. So I definitely feel as though I wasn't there for her correctly, because I never even dreamed she was dealing with all that. Prior to this reveal, I had sort of given up on being able to understand this topic. The debates around it were too heated, and I don't care who changes with me anyway, so I just felt there wasn't any place for me in the discussion. "I'll call people whatever they like. I'm good!" I said to myself. But now, it has struck me that those of us who think we aren't really affected by this issue might simply not be approachable to closeted trans people in our lives.

I hope that makes sense.
Yes. That makes sense. Definitely very different from my case.

I don't know that anyone is very approachable on this topic, and I suspect that people involved in romantic or sexual relationships might be the least approachable. It's kind of a game changer in the relationship. It's one thing to tell a friend. There's no real risk. Telling a spouse, lover, or romantic interest carries a whole extra level of weight.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:38 AM   #96
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,142
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You suggested it would be inconsistent for someone to hold both "transwomen are not women" and "effeminate boys exist" as true. I showed that to be false.
No you didn't. The very idea of there being behaviours stereotypically regarded as "masculine" or "feminine" merely bears my point out.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 22nd June 2020 at 07:39 AM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:39 AM   #97
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 22,046
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Yeah, my parents have expressed this exact view. My mom has even told me, "Men who care about you will listen to your problem once. They don't want to hear you go over it and over it. That's the way women like to talk about things, and men don't have any patience for it. So if you don't want to fight, just remember to make your point once."

She cannot comprehend why I get so offended when she gives me this sage advice.
And yet, I very much wish someone (other than me) would give that advice to my wife.

But your mom is wrong. If men care about you, they'll listen at least twice.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 07:44 AM   #98
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 45,223
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I am interested to see if Rolfe will answer your question. She was the one who said trans girls are "effeminate youths".

I don't know what the question was supposed to be, but to me an effeminate youth is one whose mannerisms interests and tastes (with a heavy emphasis on the mannerisms) are more aligned with those associated with girls.

Taken further this behaviour morphs into a conscious LARPing of the male's own internal idea of femininity, which is frequently not at all aligned with the behaviour or appearance of actual females.

Sometimes it's more about being camp than being effeminate. I don't know how you distinguish really. Maybe camp is a better term because it's a thing on its own that's actually a perfectly valid way of being a male and doesn't have to relate to being female at all.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:01 AM   #99
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,220
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
No you didn't. The very idea of there being behaviours stereotypically regarded as "masculine" or "feminine" merely bears my point out.
Sure I did. It's perfectly consistent to hold that trans-women are not female humans and that there exist male humans who display behaviours stereotypically regarded as feminine.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:02 AM   #100
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It depends on the exact context, and exactly what you mean by "should". In the context of an article about menstrual health, the menstrual health professionals decided it was "people who menstruate", for reasons already gone in to at length.
This feels like something of a dodge. I am skeptical of whether you'd ever approve of "woman" as the term for human females of at least childbearing age, in any context.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:15 AM   #101
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,142
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sometimes it's more about being camp than being effeminate. I don't know how you distinguish really. Maybe camp is a better term because it's a thing on its own that's actually a perfectly valid way of being a male and doesn't have to relate to being female at all.
But as I said before, being camp is much more associated with men than it is with women. Thinking about it I might have met one or two women that might be described as "camp" but it is very unusual to find women being camp.

So a camp youth is showing behaviour more often associated with men than with women.

Also, nearly every trans woman or trans girls I have met has not been camp. I did once come across a trans woman who was camp - but the whole effect was to make her seem more like a gay man than a woman.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:17 AM   #102
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,502
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This feels like something of a dodge. I am skeptical of whether you'd ever approve of "woman" as the term for human females of at least childbearing age, in any context.
You mean females of 5 years old and above?
The youngest confirmed female to have a live birth was something like 5 and a half years old.

Now that is obviously an outlier of outliers but it does show that when we get down to the actual details the clear demarcation we assume exists is not that clear.

The world is simply not as black and white as we would like it to be or we usually assume it is.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:18 AM   #103
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,017
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This feels like something of a dodge.
Well, I'm not responsible for your feelings.

Quote:
I am skeptical of whether you'd ever approve of "woman" as the term for human females of at least childbearing age, in any context.
You are, of course, free to make up whatever you want, even if it contradicts what I've actually said.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:35 AM   #104
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,723
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You mean females of 5 years old and above?
The youngest confirmed female to have a live birth was something like 5 and a half years old.

Now that is obviously an outlier of outliers but it does show that when we get down to the actual details the clear demarcation we assume exists is not that clear.

The world is simply not as black and white as we would like it to be or we usually assume it is.







That's all that can really be said about that.
__________________
- Formerly isissxn

Last edited by Butter!; 22nd June 2020 at 08:41 AM.
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:45 AM   #105
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The world is simply not as black and white as we would like it to be or we usually assume it is.
As a said upthread, well known problems of semantic vaguenessWP do not make categorical terms (such as "woman" or "adult" or "female") useless.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 22nd June 2020 at 08:48 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 08:47 AM   #106
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You are, of course, free to make up whatever you want, even if it contradicts what I've actually said.
If you ever said it's okay to group adult female people under the rubric of "women" I must have missed it. So far as I can tell, you've called that practice misgendering.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 09:03 AM   #107
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,734
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You mean females of 5 years old and above?
The youngest confirmed female to have a live birth was something like 5 and a half years old..
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post







That's all that can really be said about that.
Yep. Lina Medina, a Peruvian girl in 1939. Gave birth to a full term healthy baby boy (6 pounds) via C-Section at the age of 5 years, 7 months, and 21 days.

The girls parents originally thought she simply had some form of abdominal tumor. Lina's father was briefly jailed but they were unable to determine if he was the father or indeed who the father was and she's never identified who it was.

There was some medical anomalies at work here, many of which are not fully understood since this was in the late 30s. Lina was certainly suffering from some sort of developmental or hormonal conditions, she was menstruating and developing breasts at the age of 3, but the exact medical details are forever lost to history.

Lina is ironically still alive, living happily in Peru at the age of 83. Her son, Gerardo, died in 1979 and was told until the age of 10 that his mother was his older sister.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/youngest-mother/ (Warning. Contains unclothed medical style photos of the pregnant girl which might be considered offensive or inappropriate)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Medina
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:00 AM   #108
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,734
This is again the core of the question we keep coming back to and have never got a meaningful or satisfactory answer on.

This is not a trap, a setup for a gotcha, or any other form of dishonesty or subterfuge. It is an open, honest question I want an open, honest answer on.

Let's take the big 3 things that form the core of this discussion off the table for a moment. I'm not denying them or dismissing them and will revisit them, but I want to remove them from the discussion just for a moment for some context and points of view, fair?

So sports (i.e does Person X play in the mens or womens league), bathrooms, and pronouns just... put to the back burner for now.

I've asked this question multiple times. There is a person standing in front of me that traditionally has been identified as a biological male. This person informs me that they identify as a woman. For this concept to mean anything some concept of how I functionally treat, not just internally conceptualize but functionally treat, this person has to now change.

What changes? It's not a hard or unreasonable question. I know have to treat this person functionally different because I have been given this new, valid information about them.

So what do I do? What do I do, not think but do, differently? It's not important (at this point in the discussion) what this things is, but we have, have, have, have, have to agree that there is something there. We'll call this "Factor X." Factor X, whatever it is, is what differentiates a biological man who identifies as a man and a biological man who identifies as a woman. We can fight about what it is all day, but we can't fight that it has to exist.

I initially considered the person in front of me a man, they have informed me they identify as a woman, so "Factor X" changes. Okay. Let's roll with this.

We now have to accept Factor X as a valid difference between men and women. We have put a difference between the genders on the table and we cannot take it off. No amount of hemming and hawing or "it's not that simple" can make it so a valid difference is not transferable.

If I treat this person differently because they identify as a woman, I have to factor in that difference in how I treat men and women. Factor X is know a valid point of distinction and difference between men and women. You can't make that not true. If a biological man having that factor validates his identify as a woman, it is now an identifying characteristic of being woman.

The entire concept of transgenderism is trying to create inherent factors in the... sexual dimorphism of the human species that we only use in "identity" never in any other context.

Person A is a biological man. He identifies as a woman. This identity changes something. That thing is X, whatever it is. X is now a valid difference between men and women. A woman who doesn't have X is less of a woman. A man who does have X is now less of man.

If there is no "Factor X" this whole thing is the longest and most pointless thing since "is a hotdog a sandwich?" And honestly since if history holds true people are going to fight me on defining X in equal passion to arguing X simply has to exist, that's still the thing I'm leaning toward.

It's vitally important that a biological man who identifies as a woman and a biological man who identifies (or defaults) to identify as a man are treated differently, but it's also vitally important that we don't actually define what the a difference because then to not be thinking at random we'd have to treat men and women differently based on that same criteria and nobody wants that.

So a biological man and a biological woman I can't treat differently, but a biological man and a biological man who identifies as a woman I have to treat differently in some way that will literally never be defined even though that differences has to be exactly the same by definition.

This is not tenable. There cannot be no differences between the genders and sexes (that aren't already accepted as purely biological) but differences between the concept of gender and sex that don't use the same criteria.

And if I'm wrong about literally all of this we eventually do have to start defining these difference beyond "Whatever the transgender person says they are, we just have to believe them and can never question it, and every single case is its own case with no consistency or standards needed.

Okay so having said all that let's revisit the core practical applications of this; pronouns sports and bathrooms.

Pronouns. Fine after identifying as a woman I have to refer to this person using her/she pronouns. No problem if means that much to them I will certainly do so. I have some issues with how much of an "attack" misgendering is often presented as, but even with thinks I don't fully get I am not the kind of person to deliberately do things that other people find uncomfortable or insulting.

But... pronouns are weird. A lot of language doesn't even have them, don't have gendered versions of them, or implement them in radically different ways. So we have a civil rights issue that is language dependant? That's... weird.

Bathrooms. This person is now going to use the female bathroom instead of the male bathroom. Fine, I don't care in the slightest. But I don't care which bathroom anyone uses. The idea that feces and urine expression have to be segregated is stupid. A woman who identifies as a woman is as welcome in my bathroom as a woman who identifies as man. Just wash your hand and remember to courtesy flush if necessary.

But again under the framework of the transgender argument woman who identifies as a man going into the men's room and a woman who identifies as a woman going into the men's room have to treated differently, one has to be more welcomed then the other and... well I don't agree. So again I'm doing the right thing but not for the right reason.

Sports is the most complicated but oddly enough for me the answer is simple. Sports are entertainment. The answer is whatever people want to watch. If nobody wants to watch trans-athletes compete in certain leagues they simply won't watch, the leagues fold, and nobody wins in that scenario.
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:03 AM   #109
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,017
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If you ever said it's okay to group adult female people under the rubric of "women" I must have missed it. So far as I can tell, you've called that practice misgendering.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
What can I say? I'm back to suggesting that if you want to comment on my posts then perhaps you first ought to take the time to read them.

Perhaps I should make it clear that when I use the term "read" in this context I mean "pay attention to what they say", rather than "skim them in order to work out how to fit me into a predetermined box or for an opportunity to dishonestly engineer a gotcha".
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:20 AM   #110
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 22,046
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Bathrooms. This person is now going to use the female bathroom instead of the male bathroom. Fine, I don't care in the slightest....

Sports is the most complicated but oddly enough for me the answer is simple. Sports are entertainment. The answer is whatever people want to watch. If nobody wants to watch trans-athletes compete in certain leagues they simply won't watch, the leagues fold, and nobody wins in that scenario.
Your answers seem to be, "I don't care, so no one should care."

An awful lot of men feel that way.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:26 AM   #111
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,734
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your answers seem to be, "I don't care, so no one should care."

An awful lot of men feel that way.
If that's what you got out of over a dozen paragraphs, knock yourself out.
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:26 AM   #112
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
What can I say?
You could point to a post number in which you said it's not immoral to use the term "woman" to denote sex rather than gender.

You could say it right now.

Or, you could just be snarky as usual.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 22nd June 2020 at 10:28 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:27 AM   #113
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 22,046
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've asked this question multiple times. There is a person standing in front of me that traditionally has been identified as a biological male. This person informs me that they identify as a woman. For this concept to mean anything some concept of how I functionally treat, not just internally conceptualize but functionally treat, this person has to now change.

What changes? It's not a hard or unreasonable question.
I had a longer answer in the works and then I realized you are right. The person is a biological male. I will not change anything at all about how I treat this person if he declares that he identifies as a woman.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:37 AM   #114
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,017
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You could point to a post number in which you said it's not immoral to use the term "woman" to denote sex rather than gender.
I've already said that I'm not going to get into a tedious "arguing about arguing" thing. This goes exponentially so for someone who has more times than I can count misrepresented what I've said or just plain invented things out of whole cloth. Oh, and who has already said that they're likely to just assume that I'm lying anyway.

So, no, I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly in the vain hope that you'll either pay attention this time or, to float a less charitable alternative, that you'll stop deliberately lying.

I don't know which of those is true. I do know that neither makes me inclined to jump through hoops for you.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 22nd June 2020 at 10:40 AM.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:41 AM   #115
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
You're being deliberately evasive, Squeegee.

Here are three distinct positions:

A) "Woman" should (nearly always) refer to gender rather than sex [Any glossary of social justice]

B) "Woman" should (nearly always) refer to sex rather than gender [OP, Rowling, Murphy]

C) Neither of the above, the word can refer to either sex or gender, depending on context and usage

These aren't hoops, bro, these are linguistic/political positions we've seen advocated in the course of these threads. I've repeatedly argued for the last of the three.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 22nd June 2020 at 11:24 AM.
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:41 AM   #116
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 22,046
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If that's what you got out of over a dozen paragraphs, knock yourself out.
That's not all I got out of the lengthy discussion. I think I get what you are saying, and it's related to what Rolfe and Emily's Cat have been saying about women and identity. I honestly don't know if you intended it to be, or not.

You're looking for that "factor X" that is somehow supposed to change if someone is a man versus if someone is a woman.

Whatever that "factor X" is*, it doesn't change when someone who is one sex declares themself to identify as the other sex, so the way you have formulated it is a bit strange. However it relates to what the others were saying. For millenia, people have said that women ought to act one way and men ought to act a different way. As part of the women's rights movement, people rejected the requirement that women need to act a certain way. Now, people are trying to say that anyone behaves a certain way is a woman.

Many object to that idea, as they ought to.

As for my comment about not caring, I was drawing attention to the fact that you don't seem to care about the answers to when we ought to care about the real differences between men and women. That's common, among men. The women seem to care a great deal more.

As an aside, in the issues that you took off the table, you mentioned bathrooms. You didn't mention locker rooms. That's a common pattern, but locker rooms and other forms of changing rooms are a lot bigger issue than bathrooms.



*The real factor X is who can make whom pregnant. That matters.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 10:54 AM   #117
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,734
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For millenia, people have said that women ought to act one way and men ought to act a different way. As part of the women's rights movement, people rejected the requirement that women need to act a certain way. Now, people are trying to say that anyone behaves a certain way is a woman.
That's literally always been my point. We're putting gender stereotypes back on the table specifically to appease the concept of transgenderism because, as I keep trying to get across, there has to be a difference between a cis-male and a trans-male or... this all is nothing piled on nothing with a side of nothing pulling a cart filled with nothing multiply by nothing to the power of nothing... and if that difference exist is also has to exist between men and women.

You can't have difference between cis-people and trans-people without having differences between the sexes. It's simply not logically possible.
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 11:03 AM   #118
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,284
"I want you to treat me like a woman, not like a man."

"That's sexist. I try to treat everyone the same."

"Well, I want you to treat me different."

"Different how?"

"Like a woman."

"What would treating you like a woman look like?"

"..."

Checkmate, transwomen.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 11:16 AM   #119
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,276
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"I want you to treat me like a woman, not like a man."

"That's sexist. I try to treat everyone the same."

"Well, I want you to treat me different."

"Different how?"
Allowing them to compete in the women's division in the Commonwealth Games, for example.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd June 2020, 11:22 AM   #120
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 25,734
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Allowing them to compete in the women's division in the Commonwealth Games, for example.
No gendered sports period. Problem solved.

Why is that not the solution?
__________________
- I don't know how to tell you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.