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Old 24th June 2020, 03:29 AM   #81
Distracted1
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In checkers, black goes before red. Should NA groups be contacted to assess their feelings on the matter?
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:35 AM   #82
Robin
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Itís been 24 hours now and this has gone around the world. Whereís the ABC press release denying this?



Theseís skepticism and then thereís head in the sand.



As I said, I hope Iím wrong about this bit of ABC stupidity. If you are right, why the delay? In fact if a see something now from the ABC denying this whole thing, Iíd bet on damage control, nothing else.
So you are ruling out the possibility that when James Valentine "slams Minties for being white" that might be joking?
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:36 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The real issue with chess is that it promotes monarchy.
So do card games then!

Checkers/Drafts is racist against Native Americans

Monopoly is bigoted against poor people

Snakes & Ladders is racist against our Reptilian Overlords

Anyone else got some more ridiculous things to pile in with?

... and I agree 100% with dudalb on this... real racists who are under a bit of social pressure at the moment will be quite happy to see pathetic, namby-pamby liberal whack-jobs coming up with the type of stupidity that LionKing has drawn attention to here. It plays right into their hands by providing something of a relief valve for them.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:37 AM   #84
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Do you mean it?
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:41 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So you are ruling out the possibility that when James Valentine "slams Minties for being white" that might be joking?
Canít you work out that Iím not even talking about that? Iím not even talking about Valentine. Heís the host, but the ABC has editorial control. Iím talking about the stupidity of the ABC.

If you can come up with the ABC saying, a la Trump, ďonly jokingĒ, thatís a matter we can discuss.
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Old 24th June 2020, 03:57 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post

If you can come up with the ABC saying, a la Trump, ďonly jokingĒ, thatís a matter we can discuss.
Shouldn't we first come up with the ABC saying "chess is racist" before we start demanding that they retract it?
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:05 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Canít you work out that Iím not even talking about that? Iím not even talking about Valentine. Heís the host, but the ABC has editorial control. Iím talking about the stupidity of the ABC.



If you can come up with the ABC saying, a la Trump, ďonly jokingĒ, thatís a matter we can discuss.
So you are not even willing to acknowledge the question, never mind answer it?
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:06 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So you are not even willing to acknowledge the question, never mind answer it?
Minties is not the topic.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:08 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Shouldn't we first come up with the ABC saying "chess is racist" before we start demanding that they retract it?
Yes exactly.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:10 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Shouldn't we first come up with the ABC saying "chess is racist" before we start demanding that they retract it?
Give it time.

As Iíve said a number of times, even posing this topic for debate is ridiculous enough.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:47 AM   #91
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Are chess masters and chess players black in the exact same proportion as in the general public?

If not, chess is racist!
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:49 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Give it time.

As Iíve said a number of times, even posing this topic for debate is ridiculous enough.
Yes, indeed - what kind of idiot would do such a thing?

Oh. Sorry.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The white Queen is just a Karen.
Does that make the King the manager? Your job is to keep your opponent's Karen away from it.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:54 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
But tradition says white first.
I would have expected this to be pointed out in the thread by now - but since no-one has done it yet, I will.

The "tradition" of white always going first isn't as old as you might think; it's only been universally standardized for roughly a century. Before then, apparently, the convention was that whichever player was determined to go first was allowed to choose the color of their pieces.

I don't have a particular opinion on which approach is better; it seems to me that each has certain advantages, and it might just be a matter of taste. - Having said that, I see no convincing reasons that the currently established standards would need to be revised; it seems to me that they make notation simpler and take away a level of arbitrary and potentially confusing extra information that does not really serve a purpose in the game.

Nevertheless, it's still good to keep in mind that chess definitely hasn't always been played exactly the way it is played today (which is also true of many other modern rule additions and clarifications), and even some very famous historical games in 19th century and earlier were actually played with black moving first.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:56 AM   #95
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Looks to me like a producer was trying to find an easy way to fill 10 minutes of airtime, rather than that they had an ideological axe to grind.

Looking into host James Valentine's history, it seems that he has spent most of his presenting career working in light entertainment and comedy. Looking at his twitter, he's mentioned segments on a new way to swim, on how small a space you could fit everybody in the world in to if they all crouched down, on whether men or women do the most driving in heterosexual relationships, on a type of bird that has a wedding, and on people saying "rabbits" first thing on the first of the month.

I suspect it was intended to lean more towards "amusing, light-hearted, silly banter" than "explosive investigative journalism that will blow the roof off the chess world, exposing the egregious racism that ABC will no longer stand by for". I could be wrong.
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Old 24th June 2020, 04:59 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Give it time.



As Iíve said a number of times, even posing this topic for debate is ridiculous enough.
Show me where they did that.

All I have seen is a tweet alleging that an ABC producer said something about that debate.

Can you identify the time and station where this debate took place so that can hear it for myself?
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:02 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Looks to me like a producer was trying to find an easy way to fill 10 minutes of airtime, rather than that they had an ideological axe to grind.

Looking into host James Valentine's history, it seems that he has spent most of his presenting career working in light entertainment and comedy. Looking at his twitter, he's mentioned segments on a new way to swim, on how small a space you could fit everybody in the world in to if they all crouched down, on whether men or women do the most driving in heterosexual relationships, on a type of bird that has a wedding, and on people saying "rabbits" first thing on the first of the month.

I suspect it was intended to lean more towards "amusing, light-hearted, silly banter" than "explosive investigative journalism that will blow the roof off the chess world, exposing the egregious racism that ABC will no longer stand by for". I could be wrong.
Also he sometimes approaches more serious topics but uses a light hearted lead-in.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:16 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, indeed - what kind of idiot would do such a thing?

Oh. Sorry.
Nope. Beat you to it. I'm not suggesting this as a topic of debate. I'm ridiculing the whole idea
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:29 AM   #99
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[Looks at OP.]
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:31 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post

Can you identify the time and station where this debate took place so that can hear it for myself?
It was reported that it was this afternoon's show. I didn't listen to it as I'm working and not in Sydney anyway, and it isn't available on line when I just checked.

Is it at all beyond the bounds of possibility that a producer, when alerted to this topic said "James, don't"?

I don't know. And as I said in the OP I hope the ABC would not entertain a topic like this. But on what has been published, it looks like someone in the ABC thought it was a fair enough topic.
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:32 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There are also Star Wars Chess sets. Overpriced Gimmick CHess Sets abound.
And nobody who plays chess more than once a year would ever play with one of those themed chess sets. I think the vast majority of them have to be purchased as gifts, forcing the recipient to pretend that he likes them.
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:33 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
[Looks at OP.]
Good thing it's there for all to see. If you don't think I was saying it was a ridiculous topic for debate, your reading skills are seriously lacking.
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:51 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
As I’ve said a number of times, even posing this topic for debate is ridiculous enough.
Is it more or less ridiculous than menopause in killer whales, whether or not you can boil turtle eggs, dogs posing for nativity scenes, and whether or not people nowadays repeat the words "yeah", "nah", and "bye" rather than just saying them once?* Because how seriously you think this was being taken seems to indicate that you're not very familiar with the concept of daytime radio.

*All topics Valentine has covered recently.
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Old 24th June 2020, 05:55 AM   #104
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:03 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

... and I agree 100% with dudalb on this... real racists who are under a bit of social pressure at the moment will be quite happy to see pathetic, namby-pamby liberal whack-jobs coming up with the type of stupidity that LionKing has drawn attention to here. It plays right into their hands by providing something of a relief valve for them.
I think the three of you need to relax and stop hyperventilating about such a ridiculous issue.

You people are just giving the actual racists fodder! Are you happy now!??
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:07 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
As a chess fan Iíve never heard pieces referred to as other than black and white.
You never read Through the Looking-Glass? The chess pieces there were white and red.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:09 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think the three of you need to relax and stop hyperventilating about such a ridiculous issue.

You people are just giving the actual racists fodder! Are you happy now!??
Okay, fair enough. I will make sure I get your approval before starting a thread in future.

Or otherwise, you might consider not posting in a thread you think so stupid.

Just a thought.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:10 AM   #108
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Is anyone aware that this started on 4chan?

It's just trolling.

https://boards.4chan.org/pol//thread...hess-abolition
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
How about if white takes a black piece, black gets to set fire to the board?
And here comes the white firefighters who will refuse to extinguish the flames.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:11 AM   #110
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I wholeheartedly suggest that anybody who thinks that this is a serious issue should listen to some of the things Scott Mill or Dev & Alice talk about on Radio 1. Your entire conception of what daytime radio DJs talk about and how seriously they take it is going to be blown wide open.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And nobody who plays chess more than once a year would ever play with one of those themed chess sets. I think the vast majority of them have to be purchased as gifts, forcing the recipient to pretend that he likes them.

Take a game played on this set seriously : https://www.chesshouse.com/collectio...mmer-chess-set

You can't, even if you somehow manage to avoid Fast Times at Ridgemont High or Point Break references.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I wholeheartedly suggest that anybody who thinks that this is a serious issue should listen to some of the things Scott Mill or Dev & Alice talk about on Radio 1. Your entire conception of what daytime radio DJs talk about and how seriously they take it is going to be blown wide open.

I'm more familiar with daytime sports talk radio, where the range of subject matter is a bit more narrow. For instance, in February they were mostly talking about how well Tom Brady will play in the 2020 NFL season. Then in March, April, and May, they tackled the topic of how well Tom Brady will play in the 2020 NFL season. Now that it's June, they're exploring the question of how well Tom Brady will play in the 2020 NFL season.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:23 AM   #113
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Does anybody else want to discuss how stupid it would be to discuss this stupid thing that I am discussing?
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:32 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I wholeheartedly suggest that anybody who thinks that this is a serious issue should listen to some of the things Scott Mill or Dev & Alice talk about on Radio 1. Your entire conception of what daytime radio DJs talk about and how seriously they take it is going to be blown wide open.
Are you familiar with Australia's ABC and its charter?

https://me.abcfriendsvic.org.au/wp-c...e__charter.pdf

Quote:
Unlike commercial broadcasters, the ABC regards its audience as citizens, not consumers. The ABCís Charter requires it: to provide innovative and comprehensive services which contribute to a sense of national identity, inform, educate, entertain and reflect Australian cultural diversity; to promote the arts; and to broadcast to other countries programs that will encourage awareness and understanding of Australia.
Hmmm, nothing there about frivolous daytime jocks.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:45 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Hmmn. Most high-level players believe black has the advantage. Going first lets you get a pawn out quickly, but black is better able to avoid pawn islands.
I don't know if most high level players believe this, but if they do, they're wrong.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:46 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Are you familiar with Australia's ABC and its charter?

https://me.abcfriendsvic.org.au/wp-c...e__charter.pdf



Hmmm, nothing there about frivolous daytime jocks.

Apart from "... entertain and reflect Australian cultural diversity ...."
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:48 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
I've argued this for years.

Two sides in the game. Same pieces, safe stop. The only difference in the game is that one color has a small advantage in every single game.


I often jokingly call it the white privilege rule when teaching the game.

Nothing in the game would change if a coin flip or other mechanism was used to decide who goes first.

Hello the game can be played with purple and yellow pieces. (I've done it.)

But tradition says white first.

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I often joke about the concreteness privilege rule when teaching the game.

Nothing in the game would change if instead of physical pieces it was played by writing an initial bit-string of 256 (64 squares x 13 possibilities/4 bits per square) on a blackboard or with pencil on a piece of paper or something, and then players taking turns by changing some of the 0's into 1's or vice versa.

Hello the game can be played without any pieces.

But tradition says pieces are used.

ETA: of course that's still allowing for the length privilege rule of having 256 bits, after all there are only 13 possibilities per square and not 16, so an encoding could be found that needs less than 256 bits but they won't correspond nicely to squares anymore. I think those people go a bit too far, but to each their own I guess.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 24th June 2020 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:50 AM   #118
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I don't know if most high level players believe this, but if they do, they're wrong.
Indeed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-...ntage_in_chess

It's not just a belief, but a proven fact that white has an advantage.

Quote:
In chess, there is a general consensus among players and theorists that the player who makes the first move (White) has an inherent advantage. Since 1851, compiled statistics support this view; White consistently wins slightly more often than Black, usually scoring between 52 and 56 percent. White's winning percentage is about the same for tournament games between humans and games between computers;[nb 1] however, White's advantage is less significant in blitz games and games between novices.
On average white wins slightly more than 50% of the time.
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:53 AM   #119
Darat
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I often joke about the concreteness privilege rule when teaching the game.

Nothing in the game would change if instead of physical pieces it was played by writing an initial bit-string of 256 (64 squares x 13 possibilities/4 bits per square) on a blackboard or with pencil on a piece of paper or something, and then players taking turns by changing some of the 0's into 1's or vice versa.

Hello the game can be played without any pieces.

But tradition says pieces are used.

ETA: of course that's still allowing for the length privilege rule of having 256 bits, after all there are only 13 possibilities per square and not 16, so an encoding could be found that needs less than 256 bits but they won't correspond nicely to squares anymore. I think those people go a bit too far, but to each their own I guess.
Fail.....
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Old 24th June 2020, 06:58 AM   #120
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It's interesting that the most powerful piece is the queen and it protects the much weaker king. If it were the other way around perhaps we could have a thread about chess being a tool of the patriarchy.

Anyway it made me curious enough to go look it up and it seems the piece was originally a "vizier", changed its identity to a queen toward the end of the 10th century and various rule changes in the next several hundred years left it the most powerful piece on the board. So there you go. Even threads like this can result in learning something.
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