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Old 30th June 2020, 11:47 AM   #81
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We should commemorate Columbus as the guy who discovered the Americas as far as the rest of the world was concerned...

...and then we should condemn him as the monster he was.
I think Columbus was much too early to judge by any kind of modern standards. In his time abuse and suppression was SOP. There is probably not a single human alive at his time that you wouldn't have to condemn if judging by modern standards.

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Old 30th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #82
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Well then, lets don't judge anyone in the past by modern standards...

How much time needs to pass before we judge by modern standards.

There probably wasn't a white man alive in the 1950's that didn't think the coloreds were an inferior race.

How many times have I heard the Old Testament genocides defended by " that's just the way it was back then "..
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:24 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Well then, lets don't judge anyone in the past by modern standards...

How much time needs to pass before we judge by modern standards.

There probably wasn't a white man alive in the 1950's that didn't think the coloreds were an inferior race.

How many times have I heard the Old Testament genocides defended by " that's just the way it was back then "..
I suggest we judge modern people by modern standards. Historical people we judge by their achievements, and what standards they held according to their own time.

We'd better not judge anybody for not being centuries ahead of their time, lest we are judged ourselves, by the future.

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Old 30th June 2020, 12:25 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think Columbus was much too early to judge by any kind of modern standards. In his time abuse and suppression was SOP. There is probably not a single human alive at his time that you wouldn't have to condemn if judging by modern standards.

Hans
That's some nonsense. Columbus was supposedly a Christian and Christianity had been around for over a thousand years. Just how much slack are we supposed to cut people who claimed to believe in Jesus and his love?
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:29 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I suggest we judge modern people by modern standards. Historical people we judge by their achievements, and what standards they held according to their own time.

We'd better not judge anybody for not being centuries ahead of their time, lest we are judged ourselves, by the future.
Fine. But we're not putting Columbus on trial in the past, we're sitting in the present wondering if we really want a statue of him riding a horse in our nice public park. We don't have to judge him as if we were God weighing up his faults and graces in the context of his lifetime, we just need to decide do we like him enough to look at his damn statue in ours. And right now it's sounding like a good many people are answering no.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:30 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think Columbus was much too early to judge by any kind of modern standards. In his time abuse and suppression was SOP. There is probably not a single human alive at his time that you wouldn't have to condemn if judging by modern standards.

Hans
Charles V came out hard against mistreatment of the people of the Americas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Laws

People knew what ethical behavior was.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:56 PM   #87
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Isabella, Columbus' sponsor, was of the same mind
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:57 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
...
We'd better not judge anybody for not being centuries ahead of their time, lest we are judged ourselves, by the future.

Hans
Why is that a problem?
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:14 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Well then, lets don't judge anyone in the past by modern standards...
Works for me.

Quote:
There probably wasn't a white man alive in the 1950's that didn't think the coloreds were an inferior race.
There were lots of people in the 1950s that didn't think the coloreds were an inferior race.

But, I do think I would judge a racist in the 1950s very differently than a racist in the 1980s, or the 2020s.

I doubt that there was a white man alive in the 1490s that didn't think of the coloreds as an inferior race. There certainly weren't many.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Isabella, Columbus' sponsor, was of the same mind
Isabella? The person who conquered the last Moslem kingdom in Spain, turned around and threw the Jews out of Spain, and started the Spanish Inquisition? That Isabella?

She did reject enslavement of the native Americans, but she did also declare them to be subjects of the Spanish Crown.

Not exactly a humanitarian, by today's standards. If she may have done a good deed now and again with respect to Native Americans, she didn't make a habit of it or treat them as equals.

Don't get me wrong. Isabella's fine, but not exactly PC.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:54 PM   #91
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Quote:
Though Isabella opposed taking harsh measures against Jews on economic grounds, Torquemada was able to convince Ferdinand.
Expulsion of the Jews by Spain

Wasn't Isabella's idea..
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Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 30th June 2020 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:00 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, boring dude. Never did anything worthwhile. Anyone could have done better.

And yet, no one did. Someone certainly would have if he hadn't, Someone besides Neil Armstrong would have stepped on the moon if he hadn't, but we commemorate Armstrong, because he is the one that actually did it.

And we commemorate Werner Von Braun, because he made it possible, even though Von Braun was a literal Nazi. And someone would have done it even if Von Braun didn't.

And we commemorate Queen Isabella, for making Columbus' journey possible.


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Fabulous video, Meadmaker. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 1st July 2020, 12:14 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
There’s a reason why Columbus Day is observed on October 12th.

Now, Christopher Columbus was a bad evil person who had A LOT of blood on his hands, and is responsible for many inexcusable actions.
No, not really. Columbus merely applied existing Spanish law to new Spanish territories. Enslavement of conquered peoples was the norm at the time and legal practice in Spain. To was torture and maiming of those that rebelled against their rule, this was all what he was supposed to do as a colonial viceroy. Columbus was no better and no worse than the country that hired him.

Inexcusable? Maybe I don't know. I happen think Aztec practice of ritual human sacrifice of hundreds and thousands of war captives and others, including children, was also pretty bad.

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Old 1st July 2020, 12:20 AM   #94
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So let's not put up any statues of Aztec warlords.
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Old 1st July 2020, 02:15 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Fine. But we're not putting Columbus on trial in the past, we're sitting in the present wondering if we really want a statue of him riding a horse in our nice public park. We don't have to judge him as if we were God weighing up his faults and graces in the context of his lifetime, we just need to decide do we like him enough to look at his damn statue in ours. And right now it's sounding like a good many people are answering no.
Oh, I'm of the opinion that statues should be a public decision (and none of Trump's business). And it's true that he was not such a hero for finding America. And if he hadn't, someone else would, and not much later.



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Old 1st July 2020, 08:54 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
No, not really. Columbus merely applied existing Spanish law to new Spanish territories. Enslavement of conquered peoples was the norm at the time and legal practice in Spain. To was torture and maiming of those that rebelled against their rule, this was all what he was supposed to do as a colonial viceroy. Columbus was no better and no worse than the country that hired him.

Inexcusable? Maybe I don't know. I happen think Aztec practice of ritual human sacrifice of hundreds and thousands of war captives and others, including children, was also pretty bad.

McHrozni
Which is why I don't get why people think King Leopold was such a bad guy, he was just bringing traditional values to the Congo.
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