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Old 29th June 2020, 09:52 AM   #81
Belz...
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You could try explaining your point in a different way.
Ok, then. It's quite simple. Lionking said "Pointless in the prevailing hive mind of this forum. Where long standing and brilliant members like Rolfe and others are dismissed for not toeing the line.", meaning that discussion is impossible in an environment where any deviation from the orthodoxy is treated as some sort of aberration best left ridiculed (note that I don't necessarily agree with Lionking here). You responded with ridicule, which kind of proves his point. My point is that your response amounted to saying "well, since we've got the ordhodoxy now you can just suck it.", which further proves his point.

If he's wrong, actually engaging him and his argument would've gone a long way to demonstrating that.

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(Unless of course you already did, but the Society of Shadow deleted your post.)
That happens to me all the time.
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Old 29th June 2020, 09:54 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Let me demonstrate: "People with kinky black hair are just as smart as people with straight blonde hair". I'll be called a racist in 3-2-1-...
...what?
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Old 29th June 2020, 10:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok, then. It's quite simple. Lionking said "Pointless in the prevailing hive mind of this forum. Where long standing and brilliant members like Rolfe and others are dismissed for not toeing the line.", meaning that discussion is impossible in an environment where any deviation from the orthodoxy is treated as some sort of aberration best left ridiculed (note that I don't necessarily agree with Lionking here). You responded with ridicule, which kind of proves his point. My point is that your response amounted to saying "well, since we've got the ordhodoxy now you can just suck it.", which further proves his point.
And you make the same mistake, conflating popularity with power. Transphobic threads still stand, transphobic comments abound, nobody's getting banned, deleted, suppressed, or "cancelled" here.

This isn't persecution by the powerful. This is people upset that they might not be likeable any more because people don't agree with them.
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Old 29th June 2020, 10:25 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And you make the same mistake, conflating popularity with power. Transphobic threads still stand, transphobic comments abound, nobody's getting banned, deleted, suppressed, or "cancelled" here.

This isn't persecution by the powerful. This is people upset that they might not be likeable any more because people don't agree with them.
Pretty much this. If you are going to be transphobic, you will be treated as a tansphobe. Thankfully, being transphobic is frowned upon by polite society these days. Thus, your transphobic posts will have people disagreeing with them and your disgusting views.
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:05 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'll grant that it could be seen as somewhat trollish, although voicing one's opinion is not trolling. It sure wasn't transphobic, though.
It's never transphobia.
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:23 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's never transphobia.
Is transPHOBIA really the right label to hang on those of us who don't think trans-women are ACTUALLY women? Really?
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And you make the same mistake, conflating popularity with power.
The two are very closely related.

Quote:
Transphobic threads still stand, transphobic comments abound, nobody's getting banned, deleted, suppressed, or "cancelled" here.
You misunderstand my point AGAIN, even though I just explained it, at length, to you. This is becoming more than just a pattern.

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This isn't persecution by the powerful.
You are the one who brought up persecution, not Lionking, nor me.
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Old 29th June 2020, 11:51 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's never transphobia.
The first step to determining if something is transphobia is to define the term. The problem is that the definition is often very fluid, to the point of uselessness.

I think the way most people understand the term "transphobia" is that it describes a fearful and hostile attitude towards trans people. Someone who wants discrimination against trans people to end, who wants trans people to be recognised and their specific issues addressed, and who wants to make sure they have a voice is not a transphobe. So why is it that anyone who checks all those boxes, as soon as they voice an opinion that doesn't contradict any of that, but doesn't quite align with your own opinion, gets called a transphobe anyway? If someone says that a trans woman is not a woman, which is true by definition, why is that transphobic, if that person wants all of the things I listed above? Give me something to work with, here.

You can't redefine the term on the fly and then retroactively call something transphobic. That smacks of wanting that thing to be transphobic, which is circular.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Is transPHOBIA really the right label to hang on those of us who don't think trans-women are ACTUALLY women? Really?
Anyone who responds to a positive, general tweet about the subject with that type of statement is absolutely a hater and a troll. Transphobic would be one accurate word with which one could describe such a person.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:11 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Anyone who responds to a positive, general tweet about the subject with that type of statement is absolutely a hater and a troll.
Opinion noted.

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Transphobic would be one accurate word with which one could describe such a person.
If they're trolling then they are not being sincere. Ergo you cannot conclude that they are transphobic.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:21 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Opinion noted.



If they're trolling then they are not being sincere. Ergo you cannot conclude that they are transphobic.
Only if you ignore the word "hater" in my post.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:36 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Only if you ignore the word "hater" in my post.
I didn't. You said a hater AND a troll, which is kinda contradictory. Hater and troll and transphobe! I guess you're throwing every possible label in there, but you forgot to call him a nazi.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:42 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The funny part is what each generation chooses to complain about once they get old, and their total lack of self-awareness when they do it.

My great-grandfather complained about the Jews and Catholics.

My grandfather married a Catholic and thought anti-Semitism was idiotic. But he complained of "the blacks".

My mother thinks racism is idiotic. But she complains of the gays.

I just wonder which group I'll be stupidly complaining of when I get old. I'm only in my forties so there's still time for AI to be invented, then perhaps I'll be muttering about robots in my old age. "OMG, you said 'robots'?! That's a slur! It's 'androids'! I'm SO embarrassed by you, Uncle Monkey!"
I knew I was getting old when I heard myself saying the same things about rap and hip-hop that my Mom said about rock music. I still for the most part dislike those musical genres, but I try to avoid imagining that my personal tastes are universal laws.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:49 PM   #94
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I am reading a novel by Ben Elton right now. I'm halfway through the book. It's amazing how similar the opinions and the attitudes in it are to all the trans threads I have seen here. It's the first time I have ever seen a reference to mumsnet. The second time was today on page one of this thread. Racists, sexists, TERFs, #metoo, Christian fundamentalists, homophobes, white supremacists, SJWs, Weinstein and Spacey, they are all there, even a company as close to Cambridge Analytica as it could possibly be.
It's brilliant! (so far)

Quote:
Why are we all so hostile? So quick to take offence? Truly we are living in the age of outrage.
A series of apparently random murders draws amiable, old-school Detective Mick Matlock into a world of sex, politics, reality TV and a bewildering kaleidoscope of opposing identity groups. Lost in a blizzard of hashtags, his already complex investigation is further impeded by the fact that he simply doesn’t ‘get’ a single thing about anything anymore.
Meanwhile, each day another public figure confesses to having ‘misspoken’ and prostrates themselves before the judgement of Twitter. Begging for forgiveness, assuring the public “that is not who I am”.
But if nobody is who they are anymore - then who the f##k are we?

Ben Elton returns with a blistering satire of the world as it fractures around us. Get ready for a roller-coaster thriller, where nothing - and no one - is off limits.
Identity Crisis (GoodReads)
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:11 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If they're trolling then they are not being sincere. Ergo you cannot conclude that they are transphobic.
WRONG. You can troll and simultaneously be sincere.

For example, if you know that your sincere opinion (for example, "all Jews should be gassed") is upsetting some people and deliberately telling that opinion to them with goal to upset them.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:23 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
WRONG. You can troll and simultaneously be sincere.

For example, if you know that your sincere opinion (for example, "all Jews should be gassed") is upsetting some people and deliberately telling that opinion to them with goal to upset them.
That doesn't sound sincere to me.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:36 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I thought it was pretty clear. I thought he was saying that discussion was pointless here because dissent from the orthodox position does not lead to fruitful discussion.
Huh? What is the orthodox position? Lionking first off expressed sympathy with the idea that it is better to be dead than live in todayís society. If he is sincerely posing that as a position worth fruitfully discussing he is off-topic.

He also said that Twitter is a ďdisgraceĒ because they let Trump post. Is the orthodoxy that Trump should be able to post but Graham Linehan not?

Iíve stated my views on this and I havenít seen lionking come remotely close to engaging them. You have to make a good faith attempt to actually have a discussion before you dismiss the whole forum of having only one view and refusing to tolerate dissent. And I have seen plenty of different views on this topic right here in the thread. Stamping your feet and declaring everyone part of a hive mind is NOT the method by which you can have a proper discussion so if he is upset about it he has himself to blame.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh? What is the orthodox position? Lionking first off expressed sympathy with the idea that it is better to be dead than live in todayís society.
You'll have to ask Lionking exactly what he meant by that. I assume he means "gender = whatever you identify as" or something like that.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:44 PM   #99
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Welcome to 2020, where stating the obvious is a hate crime.
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Old 29th June 2020, 02:54 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You'll have to ask Lionking exactly what he meant by that. I assume he means "gender = whatever you identify as" or something like that.
Huh? What the....? Is that the orthodox opinion? Really? I see a lot of dissent from that position. Havenít we had whole threads about how it is ridiculous to let a man just claim to be woman before deadlifting, etc...?

Sure, some people may believe that but the number of dissenters looks to be higher.
I donít hold that position that gender=whatever you want it to be myself and think the idea is pretty silly. Maybe lionking should try to actually put forward the view instead of simply claiming that everyone is in agreement.

Sorry, lionking, your application for persecuted minority care has been denied. Feel free to come and have a fruitful discussion about it anyway.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh? What the....? Is that the orthodox opinion? Really?
I said you'll have to ask Lionking what he meant.

I'm sure you realise that clarifying part of his post doesn't mean I agree with it.

Quote:
I see a lot of dissent from that position.
So do I. That's not the point.

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Sorry, lionking, your application for persecuted minority care has been denied.
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Old 29th June 2020, 03:47 PM   #102
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Did anyone happen to get screencaps of what Graham Linehan did that finally put him over the top re: Twitter TOS?

ETA: Wait is this it?
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:44 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I am reading a novel by Ben Elton right now. I'm halfway through the book. It's amazing how similar the opinions and the attitudes in it are to all the trans threads I have seen here. It's the first time I have ever seen a reference to mumsnet. The second time was today on page one of this thread. Racists, sexists, TERFs, #metoo, Christian fundamentalists, homophobes, white supremacists, SJWs, Weinstein and Spacey, they are all there, even a company as close to Cambridge Analytica as it could possibly be.
It's brilliant! (so far)
From what I can gather from the reviews, Ben Elton, the man who cancelled Benny Hill, doesn't like cancel culture.
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:45 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
WRONG. You can troll and simultaneously be sincere.

For example, if you know that your sincere opinion (for example, "all Jews should be gassed") is upsetting some people and deliberately telling that opinion to them with goal to upset them.
That doesn't sound sincere to me.
Really? What exactly you find unbelievable?

That someone can hold sincere and honest opinion that all Jews should be gassed?

That someone can get jollies from upsetting people?

That someone simultaneously can get jollies from upsetting people and hold sincere and honest opinion that all Jews should be gassed?
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:53 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Welcome to 2020, where stating the obvious is a hate crime.
And the punishment for hate crimes is not being ground into data for Twitter's customers anymore.
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:54 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did anyone happen to get screencaps of what Graham Linehan did that finally put him over the top re: Twitter TOS?

ETA: Wait is this it?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a2000db29c.jpg
I think so.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th June 2020, 04:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think so.
Considering how often I've seen similar sentiments expressed on conservative Twitter (which remain up) I have to wonder what makes Linehan a special case. Alas, the answer probably lies in tweets we can no longer see.

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Old 29th June 2020, 05:10 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If someone says that a trans woman is not a woman, which is true by definition, why is that transphobic, if that person wants all of the things I listed above? Give me something to work with, here.
And of course we cannot ever change how we define things ever no matter what. Just like with marriage we must stand up for what is just and defend it from the sick deviants who want to broaden those sacred notions in ways that are contrary to nature. We can never allow people to tweak the way these terms are used.

A man is a man, a woman is a woman. Marriage is between a man and a woman. So it has been and so it shall be for all eternity.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:15 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Considering how often I've seen similar sentiments expressed on conservative Twitter (which remain up) I have to wonder what makes Linehan a special case. Alas, the answer probably lies in tweets we can no longer see.

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Maybe. Perhaps it depends on whether people complain or not.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:16 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did anyone happen to get screencaps of what Graham Linehan did that finally put him over the top re: Twitter TOS?

ETA: Wait is this it?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a2000db29c.jpg
He sure seems obsessed with making sure trans people know their place. Nothing subtle about that.

But don't call it transphobia.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:20 PM   #111
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I said you'll have to ask Lionking what he meant.

I'm sure you realise that clarifying part of his post doesn't mean I agree with it.



So do I. That's not the point.



Then it still isnít clear to me what lionkingís point actually is.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Considering how often I've seen similar sentiments expressed on conservative Twitter (which remain up) I have to wonder what makes Linehan a special case. Alas, the answer probably lies in tweets we can no longer see.

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When his past activities on the subject have had him condemned by the UK special envoy for Holocaust memorial and Twitter also cited platform manipulation, yeah, I doubt you can see the offending Tweets any longer and the straw that broke the back isn't going to be in and of itself insightful.

But don't call him a transphobe because hurting the feelings of deadnaming, harassing, misgendering clownshoes is the real problem in much the same way as being accused of racism is more important than racism.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:26 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Really? What exactly you find unbelievable?
I didn't say "unbelievable", so why are you asking this?

Quote:
That someone simultaneously can get jollies from upsetting people and hold sincere and honest opinion that all Jews should be gassed?
The definition of a "hater" is that THEY are emotionally involved in the discussion. Poking other people for funsies isn't their usual style. The implication that anyone who posts what Linehan posted must be both is ludicrous.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:27 PM   #114
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This makes me sad. I haven't followed anything about Linehan personally, but I've been a big fan of The IT Crowd and Black Books.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:27 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
And of course we cannot ever change how we define things ever no matter what.
Strawman. Don't play that game.

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A man is a man, a woman is a woman. Marriage is between a man and a woman. So it has been and so it shall be for all eternity.
When you're ready to actually discuss this issue rather than be snarky, give me a shout. You're clearly not interested in understanding my point.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:39 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I didn't say "unbelievable", so why are you asking this?



The definition of a "hater" is that THEY are emotionally involved in the discussion. Poking other people for funsies isn't their usual style. The implication that anyone who posts what Linehan posted must be both is ludicrous.
I think some people such as Bernard Manning were actual sincere racists who also told racist jokes and enjoyed mocking people of different racists because of not in spite of their sincere racist beliefs.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:42 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think some people such as Bernard Manning were actual sincere racists who also told racist jokes and enjoyed mocking people of different racists because of not in spite of their sincere racist beliefs.
A troll is not just someone who mocks people.
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:52 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A troll is not just someone who mocks people.
A troll could be someone who mocks people in order to get a reaction.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th June 2020, 05:54 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A troll could be someone who mocks people in order to get a reaction.
Sure, they could be. I wasn't addressing the claim that they are.
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Old 29th June 2020, 07:13 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, getting rid of trolls makes Twitter a more enjoyable platform. Twitter never claimed to be a free-speech free-for-all zone.
Like, never?

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ng-free-speech
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