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Old 30th June 2020, 06:15 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Woman: A feminine person, in contrast to a masculine person.
Feminine is an adjective related to women, so your definition is circular.

Quote:
I see no reason why a strict biological definition must be used, especially when much of gender roles and presentation is defined by social contexts, not biology.
We're not asking you to define gender roles, but genders.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:15 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's absolutely imperative that we exclude trans women from the definition women just out of spite and hatred. But don't call it transphobia.
Know what? You can exclude trans women from the definition of women and still treat them fairly and with respect. Do you think I despise and hate trans women?

Well I don't.

I said in another thread that most people are sympathetic to transgender people and certainly don't want to see them discriminated against. But when people with male characteristics like penises, beards and massive torsos demand to use women's locker rooms and play on the same sporting fields, there will be a backlash. And this will not end well.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:16 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Glinner certainly has made no secret of his animosity towards trans people.
So by "the whole thing" you didn't mean this thread, but the situation from the OP? Fine, then. Never mind.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #164
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Link to Reddit thread Autogynephilic male here big rant about denial of

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to wrap very long url in tags as it was stretching the page for some members
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And there is nothing bigoted about saying that women does not include black women. It is just a difference of opinion and not something that can be called out as racist.
How much longer are you going to keep mischaracterising what I and others are saying?
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Know what? You can exclude trans women from the definition of women and still treat them fairly and with respect. Do you think I despise and hate trans women?
Separate but equal like men and black men. None of that silly "I am a Man" crap from the civil rights movement means anything.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:17 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Know what? You can exclude trans women from the definition of women and still treat them fairly and with respect.
That's something I've been trying to get across for years. You're wasting your time.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:18 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is utterly ridiculous. You take "African" etc away and each and every person described is a woman, unless words have lost all meaning (which is closely approaching). Adding "trans" to woman qualifies the word. It's up to individuals to decide whether they are identical to those previously described as women or not.

To argue otherwise is utterly disingenuous.
Oh and I can't hold people to account for their opinions? Is that it?

People have a right to voice their racist, homophobic, xenophobic, transphobic, antisemitic and islamophobic opinions anytime anywhere without consequence?
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:18 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How much longer are you going to mischaracterising what I and others are saying?
You've got your answer:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Separate but equal like men and black men. None of that silly "I am a Man" crap from the civil rights movement means anything.
And you've also got your answer to the post I responded last. People like ponderingturtle CANNOT tell the difference between disagreeing on definitions and sending people to the gas chambers.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:19 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Feminine is an adjective related to women, so your definition is circular.



We're not asking you to define gender roles, but genders.
It is circular. Femininity and masculinity are largely social constructs. It's a collection of contrasting traits that society has divided into opposing gender roles, which are not consistent across time or even across contemporary cultures.

Why is it that anti-trans advocates are dead-set in defining men and women by strictly clinical, biological terms. Why do they deliberately elide the obvious ambiguity of gender?

Why do we need the word "Woman" defined strictly by biological fact when the word "female" already communicates this?
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:19 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh and I can't hold people to account for their opinions? Is that it?
No, it isn't it.

Quote:
People have a right to voice their racist, homophobic, xenophobic, transphobic, antisemitic and islamophobic opinions anytime anywhere without consequence?
No. The entire discussion is WHETHER the tweet in question qualifies as transphobic in the first place, and whether that's worthy of such a consequence.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:20 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How much longer are you going to mischaracterising what I and others are saying?
I am not miss characterizing it, I am just applying it in the same fashion to different categories to demonstrate the bigotry in the position. It is the same argument just applied to different qualifiers. As such it should not be viewed as more bigoted in one grouping than the other.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:21 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It is circular. Femininity and masculinity are largely social constructs. It's a collection of contrasting traits that society has divided into opposing gender roles.
Then the word means nothing, and the whole crusade of trying to get trans women to be recognised as women is pointless. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Quote:
Why is it that anti-trans advocates are dead-set in defining men and women by strictly clinical, biological terms.
Because a lot of people still define women and men as adult human females and males, respectively, as we had been historically doing. Also, they are not anti-trans just because they disagree on definitions. We've been through this over and over.

Quote:
Why do they deliberately elide the obvious ambiguity of gender?
So obvious that we've managed to miss them for thousands of yeard. I think "obvious", as usual, just means "it's my opinion".
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:23 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why is it that anti-trans advocates are dead-set in defining men and women by strictly clinical, biological terms.
And yet also reject it because it creates to many others like a gelding is not a man. So any man who has lost his testicles is not a man and should not be called as such. Strict biology is not the realm of anti trans bigot, rather they like a more pseudo science perspective to support their existing position. They want he veneer of science with out the complexity.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:23 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then the word means nothing, and the whole crusade of trying to get trans women to be recognised as women is pointless. You can't have your cake and eat it too.



Because a lot of people still define women and men as adult human females and males, respectively, as we had been historically doing. Also, they are not anti-trans just because they disagree on definitions. We've been through this over and over.



So obvious that we've managed to miss them for thousands of yeard. I think "obvious", as usual, just means "it's my opinion".
The concept of the tomboy has existed forever. Same with with feminine males. History is rife with examples of gender not neatly correlating to biological sex. In the past, these were dismissed as mental illness or abominations, but they still existed. Nothing has changed in modern times other than a growing movement not to ostracize and discriminate against these people.

I see no reason to continue such an inapt categorization. The bipolar description of genders has always been inadequate for describing observed reality.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:27 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's something I've been trying to get across for years. You're wasting your time.
A lot racists would appreciate this kind of sentiment since it's the exact same line of argumentation that they use to exclude racial and ethnic minorities from their nationality while insisting that they are not racist at all.

They love almost all the races and peoples of the world. They just think that they shouldn't mix and be kept separate.

So don't call them racist. It's their opponents who are the real racists.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:28 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh and I can't hold people to account for their opinions? Is that it?

People have a right to voice their racist, homophobic, xenophobic, transphobic, antisemitic and islamophobic opinions anytime anywhere without consequence?
What consequences? Out with it.

And what do you mean by "I can't hold other people to account for their opinions?"? Are you going to beat people up? Dox them?

This internet tough guy crap is both sad and boring.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:29 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What consequences? Out with it.

And what do you mean by "I can't hold other people to account for their opinions?"? Are you going to beat people up? Dox them?

This internet tough guy crap is both sad and boring.
This is a thread about a person being banned for twitter for bad behavior. Use context clues.

Being excluded from polite society is a consequence of insisting on being impolite.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:30 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What consequences? Out with it.

And what do you mean by "I can't hold other people to account for their opinions?"? Are you going to beat people up? Dox them?

This internet tough guy crap is both sad and boring.
He was banned from Twitter, not executed. Get a grip.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:32 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
He was banned from Twitter and not executed. Get a grip.
Cancel culture, where getting thrown off a free website is the same as being crucified in the public square. /s

C E N S O R S H I P ! ! ! ! 1 ! !
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:33 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The concept of the tomboy has existed forever. Same with with feminine males.
And tomboys were never called actual men.

Quote:
History is rife with examples of gender not neatly correlating to biological sex.
Now you're confusing gender and gender identity. No wonder it's so hard to get answers.

Quote:
The bipolar description of genders has always been inadequate for describing observed reality.
Except for 99.7% of the population, that is.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:34 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is a thread about a person being banned for twitter for bad behavior. Use context clues.

Being excluded from polite society is a consequence of insisting on being impolite.
And this has gone beyond twitter. Arcade's comment I responded to was a general one and did not reference Linehan.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:35 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
A lot racists would appreciate this kind of sentiment since it's the exact same line of argumentation that they use to exclude racial and ethnic minorities from their nationality while insisting that they are not racist at all.

They love almost all the races and peoples of the world. They just think that they shouldn't mix and be kept separate.
By all means, quote someone here who has argued that trans people should be kept separate from the rest of us, before claiming that we're using the same arguments.

Or were you lying again?
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:35 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And tomboys were never called actual men.



Now you're confusing gender and gender identity. No wonder it's so hard to get answers.



Except for 99.7% of the population, that is.
What's the threshold percentage for minorities you decide don't matter? I'm curious, is it 80/20, 90/10, 95/5?

You seem to be basing your appeal to tradition pretty narrowly on Western civilizations that have taken a firm stance on the bipolarness of genders. You are aware that other civilizations did not share this idea of a firm divide between masculine and feminine, right? While Westerners where hacking, shocking, medicating, or murdering non-conforming people, other civilizations took a more nuanced approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_...d_third_gender

It's quite clear that gender roles involve several aspects of the human experience of sexuality.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:38 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Woman: A feminine person, in contrast to a masculine person.

I see no reason why a strict biological definition must be used, especially when much of gender roles and presentation is defined by social contexts, not biology.
Wouldn't this definition exclude people who define as women, but look and act like Eddie Hall? This definition would be transphobic to some.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:39 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What's the threshold percentage for minorities you decide don't matter?
Who said they don't matter?

Really, this entire discussion exists because people like you can't tell one argument or claim from another. NO ONE has said that trans people should not exist, or should be segregated, or don't matter, or aren't human, or any other stupid strawman you can come up with.

This bait and switch you keep doing is childish and dishonest. You know EXACTLY what I was talking about: that the "bipolar" (by which I think you meant binary) definition of gender actually does work. That there are exceptions doesn't mean it doesn't work. If it did, you would never be able to do anything, since there are exceptions to every rule and procedure in existence. No one is saying that exceptions don't matter.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:41 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Who said they don't matter?

Really, this entire discussion exists because people like you can't tell one argument or claim from another. NO ONE has said that trans people should not exist, or should be segregated, or don't matter, or aren't human, or any other stupid strawman you can come up with.

This bait and switch you keep doing is childish and dishonest. You know EXACTLY what I was talking about: that the "bipolar" (by which I think you meant binary) definition of gender actually does work. That there are exceptions doesn't mean it doesn't work. If it did, you would never be able to do anything, since there are exceptions to every rule and procedure in existence. No one is saying that exceptions don't matter.
TERFs, like Glinner, regularly imply that Trans people are mentally diseased and/or bad-faith perverts.

I'll repost this here, since I edited it in after you had already responded to my post. I'm genuinely curious how you would respond to it:

You seem to be basing your appeal to tradition pretty narrowly on Western civilizations that have taken a firm stance on the bipolarness of genders. You are aware that other civilizations did not share this idea of a firm divide between masculine and feminine, right? While Westerners where hacking, shocking, medicating, or murdering non-conforming people, other civilizations took a more nuanced approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_...d_third_gender

It's quite clear that gender roles involve several aspects of the human experience of sexuality.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:45 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
TERFs, like Glinner, regularly imply that Trans people are mentally diseased and/or bad-faith perverts.
Of all the weasel words in the English language, this one takes the cake. Please quote Linehan saying these sorts of things.

It's one thing to argue with good faith. Its another to make **** up.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:48 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Of all the weasel words in the English language, this one takes the cake. Please quote Linehan saying these sorts of things.

It's one thing to argue with good faith. Its another to make **** up.
Here it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham...ender_activism

Notable is that Linehan has compared trans-affirming medical care to Nazi medical experiments and claimed that trans-inclusivity is a gambit by "fetishists, con-men, and simply abusive misogynists"

It's quite clear that Linehan opposes any public policy that provides any kind of affirming aid to trans people.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:50 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I see no reason to continue such an inapt categorization. The bipolar description of genders has always been inadequate for describing observed reality.
All definitions of things in the real world have grey areas and gaps where things don't fit. How wide can an armchair be before it becomes a sofa? How far can you lower the back of a stool before it becomes a sofa.

Given that this is a problem for all definitions based on "objective" characteristics, why are people only OCD about this in the case of trans? It's a fake, ******** argument.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:51 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
TERFs, like Glinner, regularly imply that Trans people are mentally diseased and/or bad-faith perverts.
And what does that have to do with OUR arguments HERE?

You can't just assume that people who disagree with you one one thing either disagree with you on all things or agree on all things with other people who disagree with you. I really don't give a toss about TERFS one way or another.

Quote:
You seem to be basing your appeal to tradition pretty narrowly on Western civilizations that have taken a firm stance on the bipolarness of genders.
No, I'm basing my argument on the overwhelming majority of history. Now, clearly that it's been done a certain way in the past doesn't mean that it's the right way to do it, but it does mean that if you want to change it you need at least some sort of convincing case.

Quote:
If you're going to clarrify trans people as a third gender then that nullifies your earlier arguments re women, since trans women would still not be women.

Quote:
It's quite clear that gender roles involve several aspects of the human experience of sexuality.
Gender roles and genders are not the same thing. Gender roles are the behaviours we expect from people of various genders. That's not the same thing as the gender itself.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:52 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
All definitions of things in the real world have grey areas and gaps where things don't fit. How wide can an armchair be before it becomes a sofa? How far can you lower the back of a stool before it becomes a sofa.
There are plenty of things that are either/or, too. Not all definitions are like that.

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Given that this is a problem for all definitions based on "objective" characteristics, why are people only OCD about this in the case of trans?
I'm not.

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It's a fake, ******** argument.
Translation: "I disagree with it."
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:54 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And what does that have to do with OUR arguments HERE?

You can't just assume that people who disagree with you one one thing either disagree with you on all things or agree on all things with other people who disagree with you. I really don't give a toss about TERFS one way or another.



No, I'm basing my argument on the overwhelming majority of history. Now, clearly that it's been done a certain way in the past doesn't mean that it's the right way to do it, but it does mean that if you want to change it you need at least some sort of convincing case.



If you're going to clarrify trans people as a third gender then that nullifies your earlier arguments re women, since trans women would still not be women.



Gender roles and genders are not the same thing. Gender roles are the behaviours we expect from people of various genders. That's not the same thing as the gender itself.
Would love a measurement of the "majority of human history" that isn't heavily biased towards Western civilization. Your argument is a textbook argument from tradition. Since "the majority of recorded human history" involves Western civilizations snuffing out other cultures, I don't find this particularly compelling unless you think "might makes right".

If you had read the section, you would see that it goes into much more detail than "third gender". There are multiple civilizations that have seen gender with more nuance, including 3, or 4, or fluid, gender roles. I did not mean to imply that any one of them was correct or appropriate, but it does illustrate that ambiguity around gender is nothing new. They were "corrected" during the period of colonial conquest.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:10 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
By all means, quote someone here who has argued that trans people should be kept separate from the rest of us, before claiming that we're using the same arguments.

Or were you lying again?
By your own words you insist that trans women are to be prevented from being included among other women.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:12 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
By all means, quote someone here who has argued that trans people should be kept separate from the rest of us, before claiming that we're using the same arguments.

Or were you lying again?
Glinner came out of left field to remind everyone that "men aren't women" when some women's org decided to wish trans-women a happy pride day.

It's quite clear that keeping trans-women separate is a hill he is willing to die on. And he died on it. RIP to a TERF warrior, have fun on mumsnet.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:15 AM   #196
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When are we going to start hearing consistency in arguments like how Eunuchs are not Men and so Lance Armstrong should never have been able to compete as a man.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:20 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Here it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham...ender_activism

Notable is that Linehan has compared trans-affirming medical care to Nazi medical experiments and claimed that trans-inclusivity is a gambit by "fetishists, con-men, and simply abusive misogynists"

It's quite clear that Linehan opposes any public policy that provides any kind of affirming aid to trans people.
His mindset is no different from the people who insist that homosexuals are secretly all a bunch of mentally ill pedophiles, perverted criminals, and other types of degenerates who should not be socially accepted or given legal protection because doing so is tantamount to an attack on normal healthy relationships and society as a whole.

They are of course never homophobic.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:23 AM   #198
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Question Deadnaming

For those of you who hope to propagate a new moral norm against "deadnaming," I'd be interested to know when it is immoral and when it is socially acceptable to mention an individual's previous legal identity. I assume it is okay when Wikipedia tells us the birth names of Dr. DreWP and Lady GagaWP, since that is longstanding encyclopedic protocol. I assume it is okay for people to say that I had a different surname before 1994, since my legal adoption did not involve any confidentiality agreements. I assume it is also okay to say that my wife had a different surname before 1996, for basically the same reasons. I assume it was okay for The Times to publish the previous names of Stephanie Hayden, since they were quoting her own words from an on-the-record interview.

My question is when it is not okay to mention someone's previous identity, assuming they have become newsworthy/notable in a reasonably public way.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:27 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
For those of you who hope to propagate a new moral norm against "deadnaming," I'd be interested to know when it is immoral and when it is socially acceptable to mention an individual's previous legal identity. I assume it is okay when Wikipedia tells us the birth names of Dr. DreWP and Lady GagaWP, since that is longstanding encyclopedic protocol. I assume it is okay for people to say that I had a different surname before 1994, since my legal adoption did not involve any confidentiality agreements. I assume it is also okay to say that my wife had a different surname before 1996, for basically the same reasons. I assume it was okay for The Times to publish the previous names of Stephanie Hayden, since they were quoting her own words from an on-the-record interview.

My question is when it is not okay to mention someone's previous identity, assuming they have become newsworthy/notable in a reasonably public way.
Bringing up someones past name is not what real deadnaming is though, it is calling them by it and refusing to acknowledge their actual name.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:37 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When are we going to start hearing consistency in arguments like how Eunuchs are not Men and so Lance Armstrong should never have been able to compete as a man.
There's no need for any kind of consistency when it comes to issues like this apparently.

One can apparently insist that it's absolutely imperative that trans women are not to be considered as women, because it is contrary to the historical norm of how "woman" was defined, while having no problem discarding the millennial old tradition of opposite-sex marriages only being the "real" kind of marriage.

The worst argument for exclusionary essentialist discrimination is and continues to be "tradition".
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