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Old 30th June 2020, 07:49 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
My question is when it is not okay to mention someone's previous identity, assuming they have become newsworthy/notable in a reasonably public way.
If it causes people to be offended, angry or sad it would be a good idea to avoid referring to their previous name. Unless of course you want them to be offended, angry or sad which seems to be why people do this.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:55 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Would love a measurement of the "majority of human history" that isn't heavily biased towards Western civilization.
I eagerly await examples of other civilisations that didn't recognise the existence of men and women as separate groups.

Quote:
Your argument is a textbook argument from tradition.
No, I've addressed that in the post you quoted. It ISN'T an argument from tradition at all. If you can't be bothered to read the posts you reply to, what's the point?

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There are multiple civilizations that have seen gender with more nuance, including 3, or 4, or fluid, gender roles.
Again you're confusing genders and gender roles. I can't help you at this point.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:57 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
By your own words you insist that trans women are to be prevented from being included among other women.
Even if that were true, which it isn't, that wouldn't mean that they are to be excluded from society, or kept in ghettos, or whatever else you had in mind when you made that accusation.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Quote:
By all means, quote someone here who has argued that trans people should be kept separate from the rest of us, before claiming that we're using the same arguments.

Or were you lying again?
Glinner came out of left field to remind everyone that "men aren't women" when some women's org decided to wish trans-women a happy pride day.

It's quite clear that keeping trans-women separate is a hill he is willing to die on. And he died on it. RIP to a TERF warrior, have fun on mumsnet.
Can you not read?
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:58 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
There's no need for any kind of consistency when it comes to issues like this apparently.
Wow, that is the most ironic post of the thread so far.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:59 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I might ask for some evidence that Linehan actually did these three things but it would probably be too much to ask nowadays. I shall have to take it on faith.
Last I heard he was suing several people for defamation for making such false claims online.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:04 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Woman: A feminine person, in contrast to a masculine person.

I see no reason why a strict biological definition must be used, especially when much of gender roles and presentation is defined by social contexts, not biology.
Butch lesbians aren't real women? Effeminate gay men aren't real men? How regressive can you get? People have fought for decades against the idea that not performing femininity stops someone from being a "real woman" or not performing masculinity stops someone from being a "real man" - has all that somehow passed by you completely unnoticed?
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:05 AM   #207
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Apart from the post 2 posts back nearly everything here ought to be in The Thread For That, you lot. Knock it off or I’ll ironically quote Father Ted at y’all some more until the thread dies of confusion.

What would Father Dougal think?!?!?!
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:08 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If it causes people to be offended, angry or sad it would be a good idea to avoid referring to their previous name. Unless of course you want them to be offended, angry or sad which seems to be why people do this.
They seem to be offending Graham Linehan, and making him angry, perhaps also sad. Should they modify their behaviour to try and fit in with his world view?
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:11 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Can you not read?
To be fair, you asked him to quote someone here, and he did quote someone here.






(In the sense that he posted the quote here.)
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:11 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Even if that were true, which it isn't, that wouldn't mean that they are to be excluded from society, or kept in ghettos, or whatever else you had in mind when you made that accusation.



Can you not read?
I'm not interested in whatever meta squabble you're trying to gin up here. This thread is about Graham Linehan being ejected from twitter for being a troll. I will continue to relate my arguments to the topic of this thread.

My comments about TERFs trying to wall off trans people from the rest of society is in reference to Linehan's body of work on the matter, which is quite clear he wishes to exclude trans people.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:16 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not interested in whatever meta squabble you're trying to gin up here.
Why is it that you suddenly want to focus on the narrow topic when you've been arguing for a much broader discussion right up until now?
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:21 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why is it that you suddenly want to focus on the narrow topic when you've been arguing for a much broader discussion right up until now?
I'm not interested in probing out each member's stance on trans rights and arguing with them in turn. Glinner took a clear stance that he denies the legitimacy of the trans experience and is a biological sex absolutist, so it seemed relevant to post about gender ambiguity throughout history.

There's already a catch-all anti-trans thread. That seems like a good place to get into a free-wheeling hashing out of your trans standpoint. This thread is about Glinner getting banned from Twitter.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:31 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bringing up someones past name is not what real deadnaming is though, it is calling them by it and refusing to acknowledge their actual name.
I appreciate the clarification. Brings me back to my original point, though, which is that we cannot now know whether Graham actually did this to Hayden, since the alleged offending tweet(s) have been dumped in the bitbucket and there is no public record of what went down. (Perhaps Twitter maintains an internal analogue to AAH for archival and legal purposes, one can only guess.)
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:31 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not interested in probing out each member's stance on trans rights and arguing with them in turn.
There's no need to probe if we're all open about said stances, and any discussion on a topic like this will invariably involve those stances.

Quote:
Glinner took a clear stance that he denies the legitimacy of the trans experience
Since I'm only aware of this one tweet, all I can say is that on its own, it doesn't demonstrate what you describe here. I'd have to see more to form an opinion, but I don't really care much about this one person's opinion, especially since he can't discuss it here.

Quote:
There's already a catch-all anti-trans thread.
If you're refering to the "trans women are not women" thread, this is yet another dishonest characterisation.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:32 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Butch lesbians aren't real women? Effeminate gay men aren't real men? How regressive can you get? People have fought for decades against the idea that not performing femininity stops someone from being a "real woman" or not performing masculinity stops someone from being a "real man" - has all that somehow passed by you completely unnoticed?
You know you can just ask them. Yes a really butch woman and a trans man can be hard to tell apart and first glance. So you can just ask them their gender and pronoun. Kind of like you can ask someone their name or just call them Karen.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:35 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You know you can just ask them. Yes a really butch woman and a trans man can be hard to tell apart and first glance. So you can just ask them their gender and pronoun. Kind of like you can ask someone their name or just call them Karen.
I think a key problem that TERFs and other anti-trans folks have is that they deny the role individual self-perception plays in gender identity.

It makes taxonomy squishy and harder to characterize by the outside observer, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. There's a real difference between a butch lesbian woman and a trans-man.

Strict biological sex-assigned gender roles is much simpler, is right most of the time, and is absolutely barbaric to those non-conforming. I don't see this as a winning system.

Nuance is hard like that, such is life. When it comes to characterizing human behavior and experience, it's hard to draw in sharp lines. It's probably why most of the social sciences involve lots of tricky nuance and poor definitions.

TERFs like Glinner are happy to point at a penis, call it a man, and dig in their heels, with disastrous results.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:37 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You know you can just ask them. Yes a really butch woman and a trans man can be hard to tell apart and first glance. So you can just ask them their gender and pronoun. Kind of like you can ask someone their name or just call them Karen.
SuburbanTurkey clearly stated that people who aren't feminine are not women, and people who aren't masculine are not men. That's about as regressive as it gets and an idea gays and lesbians have been fighting against for decades. It also shows us that the so-called "TERFs" are right when they say that this ideology, when challenged, immediately degenerates into regressive sex-stereotyping.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:41 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
SuburbanTurkey clearly stated that people who aren't feminine are not women, and people who aren't masculine are not men. That's about as regressive as it gets and an idea gays and lesbians have been fighting against for decades. It also shows us that the so-called "TERFs" are right when they say that this ideology, when challenged, immediately degenerates into regressive sex-stereotyping.
Not at all it is about self identification and self identity. Yes it is a real issue about trans people having to either exaggerate their gender or be misgendered. You need to listen to actual people involved in this
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:48 AM   #219
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Mod WarningThis thread is about Graham Linehan being banned from Twitter.
While this may be related to his views on trans people, there is already an active thread for discussion of that particular topic.

Please take comments about the general issue of trans rights to that thread, thank you.
Posted By:zooterkin
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:51 AM   #220
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In the interest of getting this back on topic, here's from Twitter's policy page:

https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-an...conduct-policy

Quote:
Repeated and/or non-consensual slurs, epithets, racist and sexist tropes, or other content that degrades someone
We prohibit targeting individuals with repeated slurs, tropes or other content that intends to dehumanize, degrade or reinforce negative or harmful stereotypes about a protected category. This includes targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals.
Is there any doubt that Glinner wasn't a routine offender? "Men aren't women" in this context is misgendering of trans people per any reasonable understanding of this policy.

So what's this thread really about? Whether or not Twitter should have this policy?
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:06 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Twitter
This includes targeted misgendering or deadnaming of transgender individuals.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any doubt that Glinner wasn't a routine offender? "Men aren't women" in this context is misgendering of trans people per any reasonable understanding of this policy.
Individuals, though?

ETA: Targeting individuals, though?
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:09 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Individuals, though?
It's hard to say really. Some point to his last tweet. Linehan himself seems to claim that his haters were combing through his prior work looking for offending content.

Twitter isn't very clear about what triggers mod action, and it relies heavily on user reporting, so who knows what straw finally broke the camel's back.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:09 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Individuals, though?
You can always go to his depressing blog if you want to see the sort of thing he writes. It's here:

https://glinner.co.uk/

I've just looked at the latest entry and he refers to Munroe Bergdorf as "he" and "him", which is against the Twitter policy (it would be "targeted misgendering" I imagine). I don't know if he did that on Twitter also, but it seems likely.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:16 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any doubt that Glinner wasn't a routine offender? "Men aren't women" in this context is misgendering of trans people per any reasonable understanding of this policy.
For those of us in the reality-based community, "Men aren't women" is correctgendering and self-evident.

But I suppose that counts as "hatespeech" now.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:17 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
For those of us in the reality-based community, "Men aren't women" is correctgendering and self-evident.

But I suppose that counts as "hatespeech" now.
It's obviously in contradiction to the Twitter policy. It's not even a matter of interpretation, they have an explicit section about anti-trans content.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:17 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I've just looked at the latest entry and he refers to Munroe Bergdorf as "he" and "him", which is against the Twitter policy (it would be "targeted misgendering" I imagine). I don't know if he did that on Twitter also, but it seems likely.
I think it's fair to say that Linehan (and anyone paying reasonably close attention) is now on notice that Twitter will not tolerate atting people (replying or tagging them) while using their non-preferred names/pronouns, at least in most cases. I cannot say whether anyone who has been banned actually did this, at least not without digging for screencaps (easily faked) or archived tweets/threads.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:21 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
For those of us in the reality-based community, "Men aren't women" is correctgendering and self-evident.

But I suppose that counts as "hatespeech" now.
And Eunuchs are not men. That is just simple and direct logic that. Get testicular cancer stop being a man. That is simple reality.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:22 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Would you consider it "deadnaming" to look into the background of an individual to see if they happen to have a long history of "offences of dishonesty" or disorderly behaviour? That sort of thing seems relevant enough to me, when dealing with a public-facing moral entrepreneurWP, but personal history is henceforth that which cannot be named?
I guess evidence that is what Linehan was doing on Twitter would be too much to ask...

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I appreciate the clarification. Brings me back to my original point, though, which is that we cannot now know whether Graham actually did this to Hayden, since the alleged offending tweet(s) have been dumped in the bitbucket and there is no public record of what went down. (Perhaps Twitter maintains an internal analogue to AAH for archival and legal purposes, one can only guess.)
...OH, I see. Hayden, Twitter, and the police were wrong if we can't see the tweets, but Linehan's claims should be accepted because we can't see the tweets?

What are you doing with the information you gained about Linehan's other actions on this issue? You claimed you wanted the information then you appear to throw it away when it helps establish a pattern of behavior consistent with the accusations against him. You were provided information that he deadnames and misgenders others, and his own statements that he does so when he considers the trans women 'misogynists'. A way he even treats Mermaids.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:32 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think a key problem that TERFs and other anti-trans folks have is that they deny the role individual self-perception plays in gender identity.

It makes taxonomy squishy and harder to characterize by the outside observer, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
What does "true" mean here? We have two rival rules for categorizing people.

If I want to call single user objects for sitting on with backs chairs, and without backs stools... while you feel it's more about usage, so anything you sit at at a bar is a stool, say.... there is no "true" definition beyond social convention.

Linehan is just using the old definition that we all used until a few years ago. That definition isn't wrong in any objective sense. Twitter's rules pretty much mandate the newspeak definition, but again... that doesn't make one definition true and the other false.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:39 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What does "true" mean here? We have two rival rules for categorizing people.

If I want to call single user objects for sitting on with backs chairs, and without backs stools... while you feel it's more about usage, so anything you sit at at a bar is a stool, say.... there is no "true" definition beyond social convention.

Linehan is just using the old definition that we all used until a few years ago. That definition isn't wrong in any objective sense. Twitter's rules pretty much mandate the newspeak definition, but again... that doesn't make one definition true and the other false.
It's wrong in the sense that non-conforming people are making it very clear that this kind of definition is marginalizing.

Linehan is more than just using an old definition. He's made trans-denial his hobby-horse. I guess he doesn't have anything better to do with his time and wealth.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:39 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What does "true" mean here? We have two rival rules for categorizing people.

If I want to call single user objects for sitting on with backs chairs, and without backs stools... while you feel it's more about usage, so anything you sit at at a bar is a stool, say.... there is no "true" definition beyond social convention.

Linehan is just using the old definition that we all used until a few years ago. That definition isn't wrong in any objective sense. Twitter's rules pretty much mandate the newspeak definition, but again... that doesn't make one definition true and the other false.

Things are what they are, regardless of what words we use to try to describe them. Every definition is just an attempt to convey an idea of what we think we know about a thing. There is disagreement sometimes about what we think we know about a thing, and the labels used to describe it. If you think about it, what's really surprising is that people don't disagree about a lot more definitions.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:41 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And Eunuchs are not men. That is just simple and direct logic that. Get testicular cancer stop being a man. That is simple reality.
It's a question of social convention. Until a few years ago, they would certainly have been considered men... albeit men with reduced male characteristics. Probably there would have been historical, cultural, social, legal... contexts where they would not have been considered men.... but so what? Linehan is not wrong in any absolute sense to say that trans-women aren't women.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:43 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Hayden, Twitter, and the police were wrong if we can't see the tweets, but Linehan's claims should be accepted because we can't see the tweets?
Who said that? What I'm getting at is that we are behind a sort of veil of ignorance here, at least respecting what happened on the Twitter platform itself.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You were provided information that he deadnames and misgenders others...
What you provided, as I recall, was an article reporting that Hayden (the individual with whom Linehan was in a public row) had claimed he deadnamed her and that she brought him to court for doing so. Presumably we could find the case in question and resolve the (open) question of what he actually did to her.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:46 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's a question of social convention. Until a few years ago, they would certainly have been considered men...
I triple dog dare anyone to tell a soldier injured in an IED explosion in Afghanistan that he's not a man any more. Preferably while surrounded by his buddies.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:47 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's wrong in the sense that non-conforming people are making it very clear that this kind of definition is marginalizing.
Wait a second. If definition is via usage, why would the minority view have priority?

Also, do they? Most of the discussion, pro or con, about this issue is had by cis people.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:50 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Things are what they are, regardless of what words we use to try to describe them. Every definition is just an attempt to convey an idea of what we think we know about a thing. There is disagreement sometimes about what we think we know about a thing, and the labels used to describe it. If you think about it, what's really surprising is that people don't disagree about a lot more definitions.
Why disagree? I could start a movement to redefine all chairs that lack arms as stools, but what would be the point? You'd only do it to get an advantage in the real world, like arguing the definition of biscuits and cakes to avoid taxes.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:52 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait a second. If definition is via usage, why would the minority view have priority?

Also, do they? Most of the discussion, pro or con, about this issue is had by cis people.
I don't get the impression that Linehan's position is one that is widely shared. That's the weird thing about TERF's, they are feminists, so they have no home among conservatives, but they are rabid transphobes too, so they alienate many of the progressives. I get the impression it's a lonely hill.

Much of the progressive movement is predicated on non-marginalized people showing empathy and solidarity with the marginalized. It's not just trans people calling for TERFs to get 86'd from polite society.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:57 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Why disagree? I could start a movement to redefine all chairs that lack arms as stools, but what would be the point? You'd only do it to get an advantage in the real world, like arguing the definition of biscuits and cakes to avoid taxes.
People have all sorts of motives for doing all sorts of things. Some people are actually interested in just knowledge itself, so their reasons for exploring the meaning of words and the nature of things is quite different from your baked good tax evoisionist.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:59 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Who said that? What I'm getting at is that we are behind a sort of veil of ignorance here, at least respecting what happened on the Twitter platform itself.

What you provided, as I recall, was an article reporting that Hayden (the individual with whom Linehan was in a public row) had claimed he deadnamed her and that she brought him to court for doing so. Presumably we could find the case in question and resolve the (open) question of what he actually did to her.
Hayden dropped the case, it never event went to court. There are also, contrary to tyr's claims, no police findings of harassment by Linehan of Hayden nor any attempts by him to do so or contact her in any way. Which is probably why Hayden dropped the case, given the complete lack of any evidence.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:00 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's a question of social convention. Until a few years ago, they would certainly have been considered men... albeit men with reduced male characteristics. Probably there would have been historical, cultural, social, legal... contexts where they would not have been considered men.... but so what? Linehan is not wrong in any absolute sense to say that trans-women aren't women.
But how do I know if the thing in front of me is a man or has had a vasectomy and is clearly not a man anymore? I need to know these things to know if they are truly a man.
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