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Old 30th June 2020, 10:00 AM   #241
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I triple dog dare anyone to tell a soldier injured in an IED explosion in Afghanistan that he's not a man any more. Preferably while surrounded by his buddies.
Threats of violence and intimidation do seem to be the way social progress is made nowadays, none the less... it's clearly part of normal usage. Maybe in the modern world we should insist that he is in fact 100% the man he always was and insist he run back into combat? Language is slippery and self contradictory. Trying to force normal usage to conform to a rationalistic notion of what the "right" definition should be is an ideological exercise.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:01 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
They seem to be offending Graham Linehan, and making him angry, perhaps also sad. Should they modify their behaviour to try and fit in with his world view?
Given that he has no good reason to be upset, no.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:07 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But how do I know if the thing in front of me is a man or has had a vasectomy and is clearly not a man anymore? I need to know these things to know if they are truly a man.
Inspired by this question I just sought knowledge, and received it, from the internet! According to several actually legit medical sources there is no difference in the taste of semen after a vasectomy. I entrust everyone with this information in the hopes that it brightens your day, although I fear for a few this knowledge spoils a rather fun series of scientific experiments.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:08 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Inspired by this question I just sought knowledge, and received it, from the internet! According to several actually legit medical sources there is no difference in the taste of semen after a vasectomy. I entrust everyone with this information in the hopes that it brightens your day, although I fear for a few this knowledge spoils a rather fun series of scientific experiments.
This is a skeptics forum, my friend. Don't accept that argument from authority, verify verify verify!
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:08 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But how do I know if the thing in front of me is a man or has had a vasectomy and is clearly not a man anymore? I need to know these things to know if they are truly a man.
Do you? I think most people are happy with a somewhat wooley definition that puts people into the categories that our societies rules and customs have evolved for them to be in. We have conventions around sex that categorize people based on whether they can or can't get somebody pregnant/get pregnant, that category is arbitrary beyond the fact that people seem to find it useful to make the distinction. If I decided that actually it was about identity, I probably wouldn't be thanked.

You can't change the definitions without changing the social rules that go along with the definitions. Well, you can, but it doesn't strike me as a way to win friends.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:11 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't get the impression that Linehan's position is one that is widely shared.
I'm just answering your point that this is how non-conforming people feel. How do people generally feel?
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:14 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Do you? I think most people are happy with a somewhat wooley definition that puts people into the categories that our societies rules and customs have evolved for them to be in.
But wooleyness is the enemy, we need precise biological definitions for people and if they are really men or women no matter what they claim. People should be outraged by Eunuchs pretending to be Men. Men is a precise biological definition after all and this is just science.

But suddenly science and biology isn't good enough for people we have to be wooley and empathetic for some silly reason.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:15 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Who said that? What I'm getting at is that we are behind a sort of veil of ignorance here, at least respecting what happened on the Twitter platform itself.
In general? Yes. In this case? Much less so.

Quote:
What you provided, as I recall, was an article reporting that Hayden (the individual with whom Linehan was in a public row) had claimed he deadnamed her and that she brought him to court for doing so. Presumably we could find the case in question and resolve the (open) question of what he actually did to her.

And of course the Linehan quote that he does in fact do this to trans women he considers misogynists.

The set of people who have seen the offending tweets (with the Hayden issue) we are aware of is Linehan, Hayden, Twitter, and the police. Three of those four agree on at LEAST them constituting harassment if continued. What Linehan is accused of is not only consistent with what he has done in the past, but what he claims he is justified in doing.

It is not exactly some huge arcane mystery if he continued doing what he says he does and others have concluded constitutes harassment in the past and is one of the criteria Twitter cited in his ban. The only real mystery is what exact platform manipulation he may have engaged in.

It's also important to note that the civil case was not cited by me as evidence. I've also not cited Hayden as some moral authority nor is it in any way needed.

What you have done with the information you said was important is handwave it. What other goalposts are you going to set?
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:19 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm just answering your point that this is how non-conforming people feel. How do people generally feel?
If this polling is to be believed, self-identified American Democrats seem more pro-trans than anti-trans. Republicans remain a bastion of anti-LGBT rights as ever.

https://www.prri.org/research/americ...gender-rights/
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:22 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If this polling is to be believed, self-identified American Democrats seem more pro-trans than anti-trans.
No, that's not what I mean, as it's not what I was responding to.

You said "It's wrong in the sense that non-conforming people are making it very clear that this kind of definition is marginalizing."

Is this, specifically, something most people agree with? You can't go from "most people are pro-trans" to "most people agree that this kind of definition is marginalising", unless you continue to conflate disagreement on one aspect of the topic with disagreement on every aspect of it.

In asking whether the banning of Linehan was justified, there are a number of things to clear up first.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:26 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, that's not what I mean, as it's not what I was responding to.

You said "It's wrong in the sense that non-conforming people are making it very clear that this kind of definition is marginalizing."

Is this, specifically, something most people agree with?
Beats me.

My impression is that the overwhelming majority of pro-gay people are also pro-trans. I don't have any data for that, it's just a gut instinct.

Twitter's policy against anti-trans bigotry doesn't strike me as particularly radical or unique.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:29 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Beats me.
Beats me too. But do we agree that we'd need to know that before reaching a conclusion about whether we can make the claim that "this kind of definition is marginalizing"?

Quote:
My impression is that the overwhelming majority of pro-gay people are also pro-trans.
Not sure of the relevance of this. Can you clarify?

Quote:
Twitter's policy against anti-trans bigotry doesn't strike me as particularly radical or unique.
I generally agree.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:30 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Beats me too. But do we agree that we'd need to know that before reaching a conclusion about whether we can make the claim that "this kind of definition is marginalizing"?



Not sure of the relevance of this. Can you clarify?



I generally agree.
I think we're talking passed each other. I don't know what you're asking me about anymore.

My point about TERF's is that it's a unique viewpoint that seems to alienate just about everyone but the TERFs. Outside of transphobia, they are mostly in alignment with other liberals or progressive types, so they aren't cozy with conservatives. But their strident anti-trans position makes them estranged from other pro-trans liberals, which seem to me to be the majority. It strikes me as quite a niche to be in. Probably why they end up politically homeless and generally hated. Glinner getting the boot is not a shock to me.

Although Glinner twice used the phrase "clown world", which is ripped right out of 4chan's /pol and I associate with alt-right types. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:34 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The set of people who have seen the offending tweets (with the Hayden issue) we are aware of is Linehan, Hayden, Twitter, and the police.
Did either Twitter or the UK police say anything about misgendering or deadnaming in particular?

ETA: Twitter cited "repeated violations of our rules against hateful conduct and platform manipulation" which could possibly encompass those behaviors, or possibly not.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:38 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The set of people who have seen the offending tweets (with the Hayden issue) we are aware of is Linehan, Hayden, Twitter, and the police. Three of those four agree on at LEAST them constituting harassment if continued.
I'm only counting one agreeing on that, and that is Hayden herself. Linehan disagrees, twitter reinstated his account after he appealed, thereby overturning their previous decision (so also seems to disagree) and the police has made no statement or done no action from which one could conclude that they agree.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:38 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think we're talking passed each other. I don't know what you're asking me about anymore.
I'm asking you if you agree that your statement about the marginalising definition should be checked against how people in general see it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:40 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm asking you if you agree that your statement about the marginalising definition should be checked against how people in general see it.
I think marginalized people are probably the best resource for defining what is marginalizing language.

Given that Glinner's stance is essentially trans-denialism, I don't really think there's much point in debating whether it was meant to be marginalizing or not. He doesn't seem to think trans people are legitimate, so it's a non-starter. Seems like prima facie evidence of animus to me.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:50 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In general? Yes. In this case? Much less so.




And of course the Linehan quote that he does in fact do this to trans women he considers misogynists.

The set of people who have seen the offending tweets (with the Hayden issue) we are aware of is Linehan, Hayden, Twitter, and the police. Three of those four agree on at LEAST them constituting harassment if continued. What Linehan is accused of is not only consistent with what he has done in the past, but what he claims he is justified in doing.

It is not exactly some huge arcane mystery if he continued doing what he says he does and others have concluded constitutes harassment in the past and is one of the criteria Twitter cited in his ban. The only real mystery is what exact platform manipulation he may have engaged in.

It's also important to note that the civil case was not cited by me as evidence. I've also not cited Hayden as some moral authority nor is it in any way needed.

What you have done with the information you said was important is handwave it. What other goalposts are you going to set?
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did either Twitter or the UK police say anything about misgendering or deadnaming in particular?

ETA: Twitter cited "repeated violations of our rules against hateful conduct and platform manipulation" which could possibly encompass those behaviors, or possibly not.
You're not engaged in this in good faith. If your concern was if he did this or not, you'd be satisfied by his justification for him doing this to others.

What possible use is it trying to prove to your satisfaction that Twitter specifically found he did what he said he does in other cases? My claim didn't rest on Twitter finding he was deadnaming specifically, and your original question came from my calling him that, not Twitter.

Not sure why you feel entitled to have your hoops jumped through when you're not going to justify the hoops in the first place. If you want to make an argument you can make it without twisting what I have said. Good luck.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:50 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think marginalized people are probably the best resource for defining what is marginalizing language.
I'm not sure it's a good idea to let anyone define what will be advantageous or disadvantageous to them.

Besides, gender-conforming people are here all the time telling us what's good or bad for trans people without the latter's input, so why stop now?
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:54 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not sure it's a good idea to let anyone define what will be advantageous or disadvantageous to them.

Besides, gender-conforming people are here all the time telling us what's good or bad for trans people without the latter's input, so why stop now?
To steer this back to the topic, do you think Twitter's policy is a bad one?

Do you think Linehan's shtick of purposefully ignoring trans' peoples preferred names and pronouns falls within civil behavior?
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:00 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You're not engaged in this in good faith.
What can I even say to that?

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What possible use is it trying to prove to your satisfaction that Twitter specifically found he did what he said he does in other cases?
People adjust themselves to different social expectations in different situations, every day (e.g. I try to follow the rules against profanity here, but I don't worry about profanity on Twitter); it doesn't follow that Linehan's behavior on one platform predicts his behavior on another.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
My claim didn't rest on Twitter finding he was deadnaming specifically, and your original question came from my calling him that, not Twitter.
Okay, so do you have an example of him deadnaming people on another platform? Surely you wouldn't make a strong claim about immoral behavior without knowing you could back it up.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:04 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To steer this back to the topic, do you think Twitter's policy is a bad one?
Not on the face of it. The question is really a question of application.

Quote:
Do you think Linehan's shtick of purposefully ignoring trans' peoples preferred names and pronouns falls within civil behavior?
In the general case, it really depends. I have no issue calling Blair White "she" even though she's not gone through the final operation at the time of this writing. But if I, bearded guy that I am, were to suddenly ask people to treat me as a woman, I wouldn't expect that it would be easy for them.

But there's a difference between inadvertent mistakes, difficulty coping with one's requests due to perception, and deliberately saying things to insult or bully people. So in the specific, no it doesn't sound very civil.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:27 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What can I even say to that?
You could try building an actual argument of your own and show some ability to process information you asked for and claimed was important. For instance explain why it is important.


Quote:
People adjust themselves to different social expectations in different situations, every day (e.g. I try to follow the rules against profanity here, but I don't worry about profanity on Twitter); it doesn't follow that Linehan's behavior on one platform predicts his behavior on another.

Okay, so do you have an example of him deadnaming people on another platform? Surely you wouldn't make a strong claim about immoral behavior without knowing you could back it up.

Don't know why you assume 'other cases' means 'other platforms'. As it turns out the quote "I will call all my trans friends ‘she’. I think of them as women, they are respectful and not misogynists. But I refuse to respect the pronouns of misogynists." comes from him talking specifically about Hayden, which I had missed because it really just throws his entire assertion he didn't out the window.

But even that is a blatant lie from him because he does it to teen girls too. When he's not trying to prevent people whose actions have greatly reduced suicide and calling gender reaffirming surgery 'Cronenberg-ian monsters'.

Yet again we have a case that isn't even marginal of a bigot trying to hide his bigotry behind feminism, ignoring the evidence, and claiming persecution, and the fine skeptics here cranking up to denialism. These rationalizations are tedious and weak. Again.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:50 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
As it turns out the quote "I will call all my trans friends ‘she’. I think of them as women, they are respectful and not misogynists. But I refuse to respect the pronouns of misogynists." comes from him talking specifically about Hayden
Refusing to respect Hayden personally does not imply that he also refuses to respect the rules of individual platforms. I am assuming here that Linehan valued his large following on Twitter, and was hoping to keep it awhile longer.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
But even that is a blatant lie from him because he does it to teen girls too.
Thank you! This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Of course, we will have to assume the screencap is reliable, since the tweet itself is gone.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
When he's not trying to prevent people whose actions have greatly reduced suicide and calling gender reaffirming surgery 'Cronenberg-ian monsters'.
I think you may've pasted in the same link twice here.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These rationalizations are tedious and weak.
Asking for evidence is not rationalization. We need the facts on the table first, before we start making value judgments.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:00 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Refusing to respect Hayden personally does not imply that he also refuses to respect the rules of individual platforms. I am assuming here that Linehan valued his large following on Twitter, and was hoping to keep it awhile longer.
So? And, so?



Quote:
Thank you! This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Of course, we will have to assume the screencap is reliable, since the tweet itself is gone.





Quote:
I think you may've pasted in the same link twice here.

Asking for evidence is not rationalization. We need the facts on the table first, before we start making value judgments.

You had evidence, that you claimed was important, that you refused to incorporate into your analysis. Further the uneven application of, and absurd ramping up of, skepticism isn't actually skepticism. It's motivated reasoning trying to come to the conclusion you wanted. It does not matter if you're trying to do this, or failing to overcome it. You asked caveman for zero citations. You didn't explain your reasoning. You set goals, ignored those goals being met, then set more goals.

Oh, but here is the other link, which hey, it's screenshots too so it is OH so very important to note that maybe it's been edited two years ago, like the last one was even though it lines up with every single other piece of evidence apart from Linehan's self-reporting.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:09 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Refusing to respect Hayden personally does not imply that he also refuses to respect the rules of individual platforms. I am assuming here that Linehan valued his large following on Twitter, and was hoping to keep it awhile longer.
Apparently he valued bashing trans women more. That's important to him.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:30 PM   #267
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Given that he has no good reason to be upset, no.
If we are talking Twitter, then it seems like it's kind of hard to say when all we appear to have is a few screen caps of a couple of Tweets taken by people who don't like him, or a summary of his Tweets as told by the person he was arguing with.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:15 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But wooleyness is the enemy
Woolyness is baked into reality. If one wants to classify things into categories there is going to be woolyness at the fringes. If I stretch a stool, is there are hard line before which it was unambiguously a stool and beyond which it becomes unambiguously a bench?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
we need precise biological definitions for people and if they are really men or women no matter what they claim.
Do we? We've survived fine for thousands of years with wooly definitions. Somehow furniture shops survive despite there not being a hard internationally accepted demarcation between chairs and sofas.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
People should be outraged by Eunuchs pretending to be Men.
Maybe sometimes, somewhere, at some time?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Men is a precise biological definition after all and this is just science.
Maybe, somewhat... but the definitions and who counts as what in the edge cases will probably differ depending on the field. You are still going to have to deal with the possibility of edge cases.... Nature is wooly.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But suddenly science and biology isn't good enough for people we have to be wooley and empathetic for some silly reason.
We've been using "man" and "woman" since long before we knew what a hormone, or a gamete, or a chromosome was. They are socially useful classifications. We may map them on to hormones, or gametes, or chromosomes for one purpose or another but that's because those scientific concepts map well to the colloquial meaning. All ways of classifying objects in the real world have a woolyness at the edges though. It's the nature of the world. That is true for scientific classifications just as much as it is for colloquial ones.

Take species if you want something scientific. Gallus gallus supposedly evolved into the modern chicken Gallus gallus domesticus. Surely you will have chickens that were clearly Gallus gallus, chickens that were Gallus gallus domesticus and chickens that are transitional forms. At the borders of these categories you are going to have ambiguous cases. Wooly ambiguity can't be avoided. That's not a reason to abandon objective categories though.

Last edited by shuttlt; 30th June 2020 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:25 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's motivated reasoning trying to come to the conclusion you wanted.
I do not have a preferred conclusion here.

I would like to know whether Linehan is indeed the monster that you say he is, based on some sort of credible evidence of what he's been up to lately. Last time I checked on him, he was standing up to gamergate misogynists in defense of women.

Thanks for the other screencaps, BTW.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:52 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Getting your way proves you aren't the victim of powerful enemies. If they really existed and really had power you wouldn't have won.
This seems like an odd take, and I don't follow where you're trying to go here. There are plenty of cases throughout history of people actually being the victim of powerful enemies, but who eventually manged to overcome those obstacles.
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Old 30th June 2020, 04:59 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This seems like an odd take, and I don't follow where you're trying to go here. There are plenty of cases throughout history of people actually being the victim of powerful enemies, but who eventually manged to overcome those obstacles.
Does it remind you of "racism is over in the US, look at Obama!"?
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Old 30th June 2020, 05:07 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Acting on that belief by trying to deny women their civil rights and protections, or harassing them continually, among other actions certainly is transphobic
Wouldn't that be misogynistic?
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:05 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Does it remind you of "racism is over in the US, look at Obama!"?
It reminds me of the Christians who insist they are a persecuted minority while they're able to shut down abortion in most states, there's a bajillion untaxed churches all over the country, and they only just two weeks ago lost the ability to fire people from jobs for being gay. If Diocletian 2.0 were actually in charge Christians would be bleeding out into the dirt, not complaining on Twitter that there are men who dress like women on TV.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:17 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It reminds me of the Christians who insist they are a persecuted minority while they're able to shut down abortion in most states
Yes, that too. I didn't think you'd agree with me here.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:21 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, that too. I didn't think you'd agree with me here.
I dislike the modern tendency to frame absolutely everything in terms of struggle. Most people just want to get along with their lives, not achieve victory for whatever ideology they have on each and every topic. That's why I focus on behavior, not thoughts: I don't care if everyone on earth secretly hates me and all my kind, whichever kind they're thinking of, so long as they don't treat me badly. I don't need to convince them that I'm right about X and they're wrong. Victory isn't winning a war, it's ceasing to feel a need to fight.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:41 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I dislike the modern tendency to frame absolutely everything in terms of struggle. Most people just want to get along with their lives, not achieve victory for whatever ideology they have on each and every topic.
No argument from me here.

Still, you realise that Emily was characterising Tyr's argument, right? Just making sure we're on the same frequency, here.
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Old 30th June 2020, 06:55 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No argument from me here.

Still, you realise that Emily was characterising Tyr's argument, right? Just making sure we're on the same frequency, here.
She quoted something I said on page 2, I'm not about to wade back that far. I've run out of interest, I've said what I felt like saying. Time to move on.
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Old 30th June 2020, 07:16 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You can always go to his depressing blog if you want to see the sort of thing he writes. It's here:

https://glinner.co.uk/

I've just looked at the latest entry and he refers to Munroe Bergdorf as "he" and "him", which is against the Twitter policy (it would be "targeted misgendering" I imagine). I don't know if he did that on Twitter also, but it seems likely.
If he has been breaking Twitter’s rules then he can’t really complain when he gets banned. Whether people agree with those rules or not is a different story.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:46 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
From what I can gather from the rest of the world, the man who cancelled Benny Hill was somebody else:
So when people on Twitter do it, it is called 'cancelling', but not when Ben Elton did it?

Let's face it, he more or less invented cancel culture.


Quote:

In my opinion, the Benny Hill Show was one of the world's most boring attempts to do TV comedy,.
Maybe even the most boring.

At least it was until "Father Ted" came along.
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Old 1st July 2020, 03:06 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
She quoted something I said on page 2, I'm not about to wade back that far. I've run out of interest, I've said what I felt like saying. Time to move on.
Oh, you are correct. I misclicked at some point there. Still, we seem to be somehow in agreement.
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