IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

Closed Thread
Old 21st September 2017, 03:04 PM   #2041
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People have recreated what Curatalo could have seen. He had a clear view over Piazza Grimana and the comings and goings of the cottage.
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
You still don't get it, do you. It's not a question of what COULD be seen, it's a question of what the human brain takes in and stores when it has no real reason to do so.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Curatalo was actually an intelligent and educated guy and with high morals. (Drugs was his form of anarchy and also his downfall.)
This is just silly. First of all you didn't know the guy and I'm sure your source, if you even have one, is of the PG variety. But it's irrelevant anyway. Being able to accurately recall something you saw months earlier has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or morality. It's a function of the human brain, and that happens to be notoriously bad at at.
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
I have to say, it's actually quite comical how you can sit here with a straight face (I assume) and describe Curatolo as intelligent, educated and of high moral standard and continuously say the exact opposite of Amanda, even though it's Amanda who has an impressive array of credentials and character witnesses to corroborate her intelligence and morality while Curatolo is the homeless heroin addict. But, ya know, you WANT Curatolo to be a credible witness and you WANT Amanda to be a wicked murderer so...
You nailed it TC. It has nothing to do with Intellect. It has to do with how both observation and memory operate. On the whole, people are not observant as anyone in marketing will tell you. People don't look up or down and they need a reason to remember or repetition. Also, you can't dismiss Curatolo's drug use summarily as opiates cause night blindness and can effect memory. Then under oath Curatalo proved that his memory wasn't reliable by saying that people were in costume waiting for buses. Vixen just dismisses this because she wants so desperately for Amanda to be guilty. But how does anyone with integrity dismiss that Toto has events mixed up that we can confirm? What makes them so willing to ignore that?

They certainly are not giving the defendants the benefit of doubt.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 21st September 2017 at 04:21 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 03:14 PM   #2042
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 15,561
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You nailed it TC. It has nothing to do with Intellect. It has to do with how both observation and memory operate. On the whole, people are not observant as anyone in marketing will tell you. People don't look up or down and they need a reason to remember or repetition. Also, you can't dismiss Curatolo's drug use summarily as opiates cause night blindness and can effect memory. Then under oath Curatalo proved that his memory wasn't reliable by saying that people were in costume waiting for buses. Vixen just dismisses this because she wants so desperately for Amanda to be guilty. But how does anyone with integrity dismiss that Toto has events mixed up that we can confirm? What makes them so willing to ignore that?

They certainly are not giving the defendants the benefit of doubt.
What this thread has been treated to in the last few pages is the anatomy of wrongful convictions. Vixen and Machiavelli fall all over themselves to make excuses for Quintavalle and Curatolo, and put the harshest, most distorted interpretations onto AK and RS`s actions.

I kind of gave up trying to argue with Machiavelli - truly I tried - when he at first claimed that Quintavalle's observations were consistent.

I then replied, what could be MORE INCONSISTENT than first claiming that Knox had not been in his store, and then months' later claiming she had been.

His only response to this glaring inconsistency? "Quintavalle never said she'd not been in his store", or some such nonsense. He then launches into pure dietrology about how.... well, I couldn't follow it, so I'll not try to recreate it here.

But the maximum effort to minimize the flaws of Curatolo and Quintavalle shows the effort it took in 2008-'09 to wrongfully convict the pair. The benefit of the doubt in that effort goes to incredibly dubious "witnesses", not to the accused.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 03:35 PM   #2043
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
What this thread has been treated to in the last few pages is the anatomy of wrongful convictions. Vixen and Machiavelli fall all over themselves to make excuses for Quintavalle and Curatolo, and put the harshest, most distorted interpretations onto AK and RS`s actions.

I kind of gave up trying to argue with Machiavelli - truly I tried - when he at first claimed that Quintavalle's observations were consistent.

I then replied, what could be MORE INCONSISTENT than first claiming that Knox had not been in his store, and then months' later claiming she had been.

His only response to this glaring inconsistency? "Quintavalle never said she'd not been in his store", or some such nonsense. He then launches into pure dietrology about how.... well, I couldn't follow it, so I'll not try to recreate it here.

But the maximum effort to minimize the flaws of Curatolo and Quintavalle shows the effort it took in 2008-'09 to wrongfully convict the pair. The benefit of the doubt in that effort goes to incredibly dubious "witnesses", not to the accused.
We both know that the fact is that they are uncapable of viewing the evidence without putting on their guilt glasses. We can't do that because it is inherently wrong. Neither Q or C's stories pass the smell test . Both of which make no sense at all.


Oh well. Guilters gotta do their thing.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:08 PM   #2044
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People have recreated what Curatalo could have seen. He had a clear view over Piazza Grimana and the comings and goings of the cottage.

Curatalo was actually an intelligent and educated guy and with high morals. (Drugs was his form of anarchy and also his downfall.)
Curatolo never mentioned anything about the cottage the night he claimed to have seen the couple in P. Grimana. He only mentioned getting up and going over to look at the cottage when the men in white were there on the afternoon of Nov 2.

On what do you base your claim that he was "actually an intelligent and educated guy and with high morals"? What was his education level? How do you know he was intelligent? Not that either have any relevancy whatsoever with his credibility as a witness. Do these "high morals" include being a convicted drug dealer? If so, why all the nasty innuendo about Knox having a cocaine dealers number in her phone even though she did not use cocaine nor deal drugs whatsoever? Bit of a double standard, no?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 04:37 PM   #2045
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We both know that the fact is that they are uncapable of viewing the evidence without putting on their guilt glasses. We can't do that because it is inherently wrong. Neither Q or C's stories pass the smell test . Both of which make no sense at all.


Oh well. Guilters gotta do their thing.
An example of PGP biased interpretation of evidence is the bleach/clean up nonsense. They imply that RS and AK cleaned up with bleach. After all, didn't the police smell bleach in his apartment? It simply could not have been the lysoform the maid used the day before! But exactly what bleach did they use? The maid testified that there had been a bottle and a half of bleach in the apartment since before the murder. If it had been missing, that would be incriminating. But that bottle and a half were still there. No one came forward to say AK or RS had bought any bleach...well..except for the lie the police put out about finding a receipt for bleach. Bleach and pizza are easily confused. And why would Amanda or Raff need to buy any bleach when it was already in the apartment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixen
In any case, Raff had a whole bin full of used latex gloves and rags in his bathroom.
Vixen is implying this is somehow incriminating. What else could they have been used for except cleaning up evidence? Except I also keep latex gloves in my house. In fact, I used them today when I was freezing hamburger, chicken, and steak. I also use them when I clean the bathrooms...as could his maid. I wear them for all kinds of things when I don't want to get my hands dirty or contaminated. And not once did I use them to clean up evidence of a murder. Nor did these rags prove to have any connection to a clean up of evidence. But that doesn't stop the suggestion that they did.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 21st September 2017 at 05:19 PM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st September 2017, 05:25 PM   #2046
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
An example of PGP biased interpretation of evidence is the bleach/clean up nonsense. They imply that RS and AK cleaned up with bleach. After all, didn't the police smell bleach in his apartment? It simply could not have been the lysoform the maid used the day before! But exactly what bleach did they use? The maid testified that there had been a bottle and a half of bleach in the apartment since before the murder. If it had been missing, that would be incriminating. But that bottle and a half were still there. No one came forward to say AK or RS had bought any bleach...well..except for the lie the police put out about finding a receipt for bleach. Bleach and pizza are easily confused. And why would Amanda or Raff need to buy any bleach when it was already in the apartment?



Vixen is implying this is somehow incriminating. What else could they have been used for except cleaning up evidence? Except I also keep latex gloves in my house. In fact, I used them today when I was freezing hamburger, chicken, and steak. I also use them when I clean the bathrooms...as could his maid. I wear them for all kinds of things when I don't want to get my hands dirty or contaminated. And not once did I use them to clean up a evidence of a murder. Nor did these rags prove to have any connection to a clean up of evidence. But that doesn't stop the suggestion that they did.
The problem is there isn't really a cleanup. No telltale swirls. Luminol doesn't light up the whole floor as it would if they bleached it and you can't get around the selectivity leaving all that evidence of Rudy and none of their own. And no matter how many times Vixen can say it, there is no evidence in the cottage that is incriminating against Amanda or Raffaele. You can't prove the Luminol stains are blood and none of the stains can't be attributable to anyone and this includes the bathmat.

The ONLY EVIDENCE that could possibly be attributed to Amanda or Raffaele was the bra clasp yet it was never confirmed by a second DNA test and given the multiple male DNA contributions it would be wrong to not consider it's source to be a contamination event.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 21st September 2017 at 06:23 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:38 AM   #2047
Welshman
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 884
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
We both know that the fact is that they are uncapable of viewing the evidence without putting on their guilt glasses. We can't do that because it is inherently wrong. Neither Q or C's stories pass the smell test . Both of which make no sense at all.


Oh well. Guilters gotta do their thing.
When it comes to witness testimony it does not matter how unreliable the testimony is or how many holes there are in their story, PGP will accept testimony as long as it works against Amanda and Raffael. The slavish defence of Quintavelle proves this. Machiavelli completely ignores the numerous holes in the testimony of Quintavelle.
Welshman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 05:44 AM   #2048
sept79
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 338
Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
When it comes to witness testimony it does not matter how unreliable the testimony is or how many holes there are in their story, PGP will accept testimony as long as it works against Amanda and Raffael. The slavish defence of Quintavelle proves this. Machiavelli completely ignores the numerous holes in the testimony of Quintavelle.

Unfortunately, this indictment of the PGP can be applied to the Italian judges.

Why so? Decreed by someone higher in the food change? Ineptness? Anti-Americanism?
sept79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 07:48 AM   #2049
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
When it comes to witness testimony it does not matter how unreliable the testimony is or how many holes there are in their story, PGP will accept testimony as long as it works against Amanda and Raffael. The slavish defence of Quintavelle proves this. Machiavelli completely ignores the numerous holes in the testimony of Quintavelle.
I've never understood why the PGP would think these things.

1. that two people who had just supposedly committed a murder would stand outside in the November cold?

2. That Amanda would wait outside Quintavalle's store for it to open to peruse cleaning supplies when they already had plenty and then not buy.anything?

3. That they would take that big cooking knife too and from the cottage?

4.That 2 new young lovers with no history of violence or psychotic behavior between them would be so disinterested in each other and sex that they would have to spice it up by killing their friend?

5. Why they would include a total stranger that they could have no idea they could trust?

Now granted, it is possible for the very very unlikely to happen. Royal flushes are dealt and longshots sometimes do pay off. If Quintavalle or the park had a security camera then there would be actual credible evidence for the unlikely. Sorry Vixen people coming forward 6 months to a year after the incident is simply not credible. Regardless of their certainty. Especially when their stories are nonsensical and lack corroboration.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 22nd September 2017 at 08:38 AM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:26 AM   #2050
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Quintavalle testified that Chiriboga told him RS had been arrested for the murder and he sent her out for a newspaper. He said he recognized AK as the girl he'd seen in his store "4-5-6 days" earlier. Yet he does not mention this to Chiriboga immediately? He doesn't say, "OMG, that's the girl that came into my store so early the day after the murder!"
So he knows she's been arrested and recognizes her before Volturno ever questioned him. Yet, when Volturno arrives days later to ask him about them, he claims he was never asked about Knox, only Sollecito (as if that would even make sense and which Volturno contradicts). So what does he do thinking AK was in his store the morning after the murder which could be important information? He just says nothing. Yeah, right.

He would have told Volturno that he thinks AK might have been in his store but that he is not 100% certain.

Oh, come on. He wrestled with nothing.

Just because in your culture people might blurt out whatever pops into their heads, e.g.,"OMG, that's the girl that came into my store so early the day after the murder!" the less fluffy-headed amongst us honour the old Yorkshire edict, 'Shut thy gob, pin back t'lug'oles and put t'brain in gear' before gushing forth.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:34 AM   #2051
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Curatolo never mentioned anything about the cottage the night he claimed to have seen the couple in P. Grimana. He only mentioned getting up and going over to look at the cottage when the men in white were there on the afternoon of Nov 2.

On what do you base your claim that he was "actually an intelligent and educated guy and with high morals"? What was his education level? How do you know he was intelligent? Not that either have any relevancy whatsoever with his credibility as a witness. Do these "high morals" include being a convicted drug dealer? If so, why all the nasty innuendo about Knox having a cocaine dealers number in her phone even though she did not use cocaine nor deal drugs whatsoever? Bit of a double standard, no?

Because of his good manners and erudition.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:37 AM   #2052
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
An example of PGP biased interpretation of evidence is the bleach/clean up nonsense. They imply that RS and AK cleaned up with bleach. After all, didn't the police smell bleach in his apartment? It simply could not have been the lysoform the maid used the day before! But exactly what bleach did they use? The maid testified that there had been a bottle and a half of bleach in the apartment since before the murder. If it had been missing, that would be incriminating. But that bottle and a half were still there. No one came forward to say AK or RS had bought any bleach...well..except for the lie the police put out about finding a receipt for bleach. Bleach and pizza are easily confused. And why would Amanda or Raff need to buy any bleach when it was already in the apartment?



Vixen is implying this is somehow incriminating. What else could they have been used for except cleaning up evidence? Except I also keep latex gloves in my house. In fact, I used them today when I was freezing hamburger, chicken, and steak. I also use them when I clean the bathrooms...as could his maid. I wear them for all kinds of things when I don't want to get my hands dirty or contaminated. And not once did I use them to clean up evidence of a murder. Nor did these rags prove to have any connection to a clean up of evidence. But that doesn't stop the suggestion that they did.

<ROFLMAO> The idea of Raff or Knox pulling on Marigolds to do a bit of cleaning before the night of the murder. </roflmao>
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:41 AM   #2053
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem is there isn't really a cleanup. No telltale swirls. Luminol doesn't light up the whole floor as it would if they bleached it and you can't get around the selectivity leaving all that evidence of Rudy and none of their own. And no matter how many times Vixen can say it, there is no evidence in the cottage that is incriminating against Amanda or Raffaele. You can't prove the Luminol stains are blood and none of the stains can't be attributable to anyone and this includes the bathmat.

The ONLY EVIDENCE that could possibly be attributed to Amanda or Raffaele was the bra clasp yet it was never confirmed by a second DNA test and given the multiple male DNA contributions it would be wrong to not consider it's source to be a contamination event.

Depends on what type of bleach they used. In the USA the word 'bleach' is used to denote any old kitchen cleaner. In Europe we mean either ammonia or peroxide. These would light up the whole floor, but only within a critical 24 hour time frame. Ordinary soaps and lauryl sulphates would not.

If luminol is as useless as you claim, how come police forces around the world consider it an essential tool in their kit at murder scenes.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:42 AM   #2054
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
When it comes to witness testimony it does not matter how unreliable the testimony is or how many holes there are in their story, PGP will accept testimony as long as it works against Amanda and Raffael. The slavish defence of Quintavelle proves this. Machiavelli completely ignores the numerous holes in the testimony of Quintavelle.
Truth never contains 'holes'.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:43 AM   #2055
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Just because in your culture people might blurt out whatever pops into their heads, e.g.,"OMG, that's the girl that came into my store so early the day after the murder!" the less fluffy-headed amongst us honour the old Yorkshire edict, 'Shut thy gob, pin back t'lug'oles and put t'brain in gear' before gushing forth.
You can't be this stupid Vixen. Culture HAS NOTHING to do with it. The police are asking for help in solving a murder. And in that spirit one is likely to offer too much information. They are not likely to hold back that they saw one of the most players in the story.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:46 AM   #2056
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Depends on what type of bleach they used. In the USA the word 'bleach' is used to denote any old kitchen cleaner. In Europe we mean either ammonia or peroxide. These would light up the whole floor, but only within a critical 24 hour time frame. Ordinary soaps and lauryl sulphates would not.

If luminol is as useless as you claim, how come police forces around the world consider it an essential tool in their kit at murder scenes.
You really don't know what you're talking about. Nevertheless there is no evidence of a cleanup. And you need evidence to prove there was one. You can't just assert it. It's not like your God. Faith doesn't prove a damn thing.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 08:48 AM   #2057
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Truth never contains 'holes'.
Then we agree. It's not the truth. Because those stories have more holes than Swiss cheese.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:05 AM   #2058
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Just because in your culture people might blurt out whatever pops into their heads, e.g.,"OMG, that's the girl that came into my store so early the day after the murder!" the less fluffy-headed amongst us honour the old Yorkshire edict, 'Shut thy gob, pin back t'lug'oles and put t'brain in gear' before gushing forth.
Thanks for my first laugh of the day! You're bending so far backward in order to make this somehow sensible that you're in danger of snapping your spine. So you think that, after sending his clerk out to buy a newspaper so he could read up on a person he knows being arrested more murder, he wouldn't mention that the girlfriend (who has also been arrested) had been in his store early the morning after.

New flash: Quintavalle isn't from Yorkshire. He's Italian. Your sad attempt to explain away his failure to even mention it is totally irrelevant besides being nonsensical.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:12 AM   #2059
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 15,561
This thread has dropped 88% in both postings and views since the Marasca/Bruno acquittals in 2015 acc. to stats provided by JREF/ISF.

With Vixen's last 5 posts, that activity might drop more. We've been treated to such iron-clad guilter logic like, Quintavalle never told police about Knox in the first week after the crime because he was, "polite like a good Yorkshireman."

The only remaining question is: why are the rest of us here. At some point that ceases to become a criticism of Vixen, and becomes a criticism of..... oh, never mind.

Then there's the claim by Machiavelli that Quintavalle was logically consistent in what he'd told police. That despite the fact he denied seeing Knox in his store, telling them this in the first week after the murder.

Yet Machiavelli claims that that is completely consistent with his other report, 6 months' later, that he remembered seeing her in his store.

The only remaining question is..... wait a minute, I've already posited that remaining question. Never mind.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 22nd September 2017 at 09:14 AM.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:14 AM   #2060
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Because of his good manners and erudition.
Hahahahaha! Because only educated, intelligent and people with high morals can have good manners! Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. People of average education, intelligence and morals can't have manners?

How in the world would you know that he is erudite? What exactly has he said that leads you to assume that he is highly educated? You are just pulling more factoids out of...well...we all know where.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:18 AM   #2061
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Thanks for my first laugh of the day! You're bending so far backward in order to make this somehow sensible that you're in danger of snapping your spine. So you think that, after sending his clerk out to buy a newspaper so he could read up on a person he knows being arrested more murder, he wouldn't mention that the girlfriend (who has also been arrested) had been in his store early the morning after.

New flash: Quintavalle isn't from Yorkshire. He's Italian. Your sad attempt to explain away his failure to even mention it is totally irrelevant besides being nonsensical.
It's ridiculous to think in Yorkshire, Perugia or Venice, California that they wouldn't mention it. But like you said, Vixen is bending over backwards to believe the ridiculous just so they can be guilty. From my view, giving Quintavalle or Curatolo's story any weight at all is flat out wrong. They both are worthless. They don't prove guilt or innocence.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:23 AM   #2062
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
<ROFLMAO> The idea of Raff or Knox pulling on Marigolds to do a bit of cleaning before the night of the murder. </roflmao>
I see you resort to some silly remark instead of addressing the facts that have been pointed out:

1. The bleach that the housekeeper reported having been in the house previous to the murder was still there.

2. There was no need for Knox to buy bleach.

3. Latex gloves are commonly found in many homes.

4. The maid could have used the gloves when she cleaned the house.

The fact that the gloves and rags were never introduced into court indicates they had no probative value whatsoever.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:36 AM   #2063
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I see you resort to some silly remark instead of addressing the facts that have been pointed out:

1. The bleach that the housekeeper reported having been in the house previous to the murder was still there.

2. There was no need for Knox to buy bleach.

3. Latex gloves are commonly found in many homes.

4. The maid could have used the gloves when she cleaned the house.

The fact that the gloves and rags were never introduced into court indicates they had no probative value whatsoever.
This is so bloody stupid it's embarrassing. There WAS NO CLEANUP! Or at least no evidence of a cleanup. That Raffaele and the cottage or Quintavalle's store had cleaning supplies offers no probative value. That Vixen is arguing this point shows a dearth of critical thinking skills.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 09:55 AM   #2064
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Depends on what type of bleach they used. In the USA the word 'bleach' is used to denote any old kitchen cleaner. In Europe we mean either ammonia or peroxide. These would light up the whole floor, but only within a critical 24 hour time frame. Ordinary soaps and lauryl sulphates would not.

If luminol is as useless as you claim, how come police forces around the world consider it an essential tool in their kit at murder scenes.
Umm...no. In the US, "bleach" is NOT used to denote any old kitchen cleaner. It means BLEACH, either chlorine or oxidized. Stop making things up.

No one has claimed luminol is useless and certainly not Acbytesla. Unlike the PGP who still cling to the "luminol is so much more sensitive than TMB which explains why all the luminol prints were TMB negative" excuse. If TMB is so inferior, then why do forensic experts around the world consider it an essential tool in their labs to test for blood after luminol positive reactions?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 10:04 AM   #2065
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
The only remaining question is: why are the rest of us here. At some point that ceases to become a criticism of Vixen, and becomes a criticism of..... oh, never mind.

Honestly, I get a kick out of watching the PGP turn themselves into knots in lame attempts to support their beliefs. I enjoy watching them make up things, posting falsehoods and misrepresentations and then getting exposed for doing so. It's like a bottomless bag of laughs. And, frankly, it fascinates me on a psychological basis that they just keep coming back for more.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 10:04 AM   #2066
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Thanks for my first laugh of the day! You're bending so far backward in order to make this somehow sensible that you're in danger of snapping your spine. So you think that, after sending his clerk out to buy a newspaper so he could read up on a person he knows being arrested more murder, he wouldn't mention that the girlfriend (who has also been arrested) had been in his store early the morning after.

New flash: Quintavalle isn't from Yorkshire. He's Italian. Your sad attempt to explain away his failure to even mention it is totally irrelevant besides being nonsensical.
There are plenty of communities who fear the police and will not come forward. In Italy, no-one goes to the cop shop without a lawyer in tow. Why would Quintavalle be any different? He was probably brought up as 'omerta'. Who knows, he may have had to pay 'taxes' to the local mob.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 10:08 AM   #2067
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Deleted.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig


Last edited by Vixen; 22nd September 2017 at 10:11 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 10:13 AM   #2068
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Umm...no. In the US, "bleach" is NOT used to denote any old kitchen cleaner. It means BLEACH, either chlorine or oxidized. Stop making things up.

No one has claimed luminol is useless and certainly not Acbytesla. Unlike the PGP who still cling to the "luminol is so much more sensitive than TMB which explains why all the luminol prints were TMB negative" excuse. If TMB is so inferior, then why do forensic experts around the world consider it an essential tool in their labs to test for blood after luminol positive reactions?
Look here. We already know the victim was stabbed to death, so we don't need to search for blood.

Sheeee-eesh!
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 10:22 AM   #2069
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Umm...no. In the US, "bleach" is NOT used to denote any old kitchen cleaner. It means BLEACH, either chlorine or oxidized. Stop making things up.

No one has claimed luminol is useless and certainly not Acbytesla. Unlike the PGP who still cling to the "luminol is so much more sensitive than TMB which explains why all the luminol prints were TMB negative" excuse. If TMB is so inferior, then why do forensic experts around the world consider it an essential tool in their labs to test for blood after luminol positive reactions?
The whole Luminol vs TMB argument is another stupidity foisted on the world by the PGP. It isn't one is better than the other. They both are relatively inexpensive presumptive tests for blood. But neither prove that a substance is blood but that it very well could be. There is no getting around that there is not only no confirmation of blood but a test that demonstrates that it wasn't blood. Now if Stefanoni had really felt that the negative TMB tests produced a false negative it would be her responsibility to have performed confirmatory tests. I don't get how anyone can ignore these facts.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 10:25 AM   #2070
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look here. We already know the victim was stabbed to death, so we don't need to search for blood.

Sheeee-eesh!
And yet, they did. Thus the application of Luminol and TMB.

Sheesh.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 11:13 AM   #2071
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are plenty of communities who fear the police and will not come forward. In Italy, no-one goes to the cop shop without a lawyer in tow. Why would Quintavalle be any different? He was probably brought up as 'omerta'. Who knows, he may have had to pay 'taxes' to the local mob.
So, you are admitting that Italians fear their own police to the point that even witnesses who are guilty of nothing don't say anything to the police without a lawyer. There may be some truth to this considering Filomena and Laura both lawyered up immediately. But this begs the question: why do they fear their own police? Maybe because they hit and coerce suspects under unrecorded and lawyer-less interrogations?

However, my post had nothing to do with the police. It was about his not mentioning Knox's presence at his store to his clerk, Chiriboga, when he had just sent her to buy a newspaper and he saw Knox's picture in it. Did he fear Chiriboga might report him the mafia?

But back to your misdirection regarding fear of the police and (LOL) "omerta". Did this alleged fear preclude Quintavalle talking to Volturno about Sollecito? Nope.

You excuses are getting weaker and weaker.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 22nd September 2017 at 11:22 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 11:18 AM   #2072
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look here. We already know the victim was stabbed to death, so we don't need to search for blood.

Sheeee-eesh!
They were looking for the blood or blood/DNA mix of the killer(s), too, not just Meredith's blood.
Finding someone's DNA who had never been in that apartment mixed with Kercher's blood would have identified the killer

Sheeee-eeesh!

And you failed to answer the question:

If TMB is so inferior, then why do forensic experts around the world consider it an essential tool in their labs to test for blood after luminol positive reactions?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 22nd September 2017 at 11:21 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:08 PM   #2073
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You really don't know what you're talking about. Nevertheless there is no evidence of a cleanup. And you need evidence to prove there was one. You can't just assert it. It's not like your God. Faith doesn't prove a damn thing.

Here comes the typical communist revision of history.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:17 PM   #2074
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So, you are admitting that Italians fear their own police to the point that even witnesses who are guilty of nothing don't say anything to the police without a lawyer. There may be some truth to this considering Filomena and Laura both lawyered up immediately. But this begs the question: why do they fear their own police? Maybe because they hit and coerce suspects under unrecorded and lawyer-less interrogations?

However, my post had nothing to do with the police. It was about his not mentioning Knox's presence at his store to his clerk, Chiriboga, when he had just sent her to buy a newspaper and he saw Knox's picture in it. Did he fear Chiriboga might report him the mafia?

But back to your misdirection regarding fear of the police and (LOL) "omerta". Did this alleged fear preclude Quintavalle talking to Volturno about Sollecito? Nope.

You excuses are getting weaker and weaker.

Some people keep wise counsel, instead of shooting their mouth off.

Perhaps you're the type who tells everybody you meet all of your life's operations in gruesome detail or yaks on about some dull soap opera on tv last night.

Yap yap yap yap.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig

Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:22 PM   #2075
bagels
Master Poster
 
bagels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,272
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Some people keep wise counsel, instead of shooting their mouth off.

Perhaps you're the type who tells everybody you meet all of your life's operations in gruesome detail or yaks on about some dull soap opera on tv last night.

Yap yap yap yap.
I was watching a re-run of a dull political soap opera on tv last night (The West Wing) and the episode was all about the extradition treaty between the US and Italy. Very timely...if this was March 2015, and Knox was convicted. Alas neither are true.

BTW the episode resolved with a backroom political deal
bagels is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:28 PM   #2076
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 34,989
Originally Posted by bagels View Post
I was watching a re-run of a dull political soap opera on tv last night (The West Wing) and the episode was all about the extradition treaty between the US and Italy. Very timely...if this was March 2015, and Knox was convicted. Alas neither are true.

BTW the episode resolved with a backroom political deal
Here's a spoiler...








<scroll down>






<scroll down>









...It was...













JR.
__________________
who claims the soulless
Who speaks for the forgotten dead

~ Danzig


Last edited by Vixen; 22nd September 2017 at 12:55 PM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:38 PM   #2077
bagels
Master Poster
 
bagels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,272
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's a spoiler...

...It was...

JR.
John Ramsey killed his daughter? I think it's plausible but I can't prove it.
bagels is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:38 PM   #2078
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here comes the typical communist revision of history.
How is that revisionist history? Logic goes right out the window in your posts.

Dictionary.com defines faith as
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

Sounds exactly like your position on God and this case.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:47 PM   #2079
Welshman
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 884
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are plenty of communities who fear the police and will not come forward. In Italy, no-one goes to the cop shop without a lawyer in tow. Why would Quintavalle be any different? He was probably brought up as 'omerta'. Who knows, he may have had to pay 'taxes' to the local mob.
Vixen has slavishly defended the Perugia police and described them as models of integrity who would never railroad innocent people. Vixen is now saying people are scared of the Italian police, are afraid to testify and will not speak to the police without a lawyer.
Welshman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd September 2017, 12:48 PM   #2080
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
Originally Posted by bagels View Post
I was watching a re-run of a dull political soap opera on tv last night (The West Wing) and the episode was all about the extradition treaty between the US and Italy. Very timely...if this was March 2015, and Knox was convicted. Alas neither are true.

BTW the episode resolved with a backroom political deal
Whooa...thems fighting words. The West Wing was one of my favorite TV shows. I remember the episode well. But it was about the extradition of an American from Italy to face charges for murder in Dekalb County Georgia. Italy would not extradite because of the death penalty. Josh solved it by paying off the DA in Georgia.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.