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Old 9th April 2019, 02:13 PM   #1241
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Actually the Thai word is ห้องน้ำ and transliterated more like "hawng narm". It means "room water" which isn't much different to "water closet" - sometimes used in English for toilet. Not much of an analogy methinks.

What was the point again? What is the "norm" we shape our beliefs to match?
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Yes, I translated into English as most here don't read or understand Thai. If you don't get the analogy about items across cultures having different names yet referring to the same thing I don't think I have the ability to explain it any clearer. I apologize for my shortcomings as an educator as I have failed you.

Chris B.

Yes we have a problem about understanding here and it doesn't help if you are not familiar with the meaning of the words you are using. Translate is not the same as transliterate. ห้องน้ำ translated means "room water" as I said and is similar to an English description as I said. Your "hong nam" is a clumsy attempt at transliteration as I pointed out.

I ask again .... What was the point again? What is the "norm" we shape our beliefs to match?
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Old 9th April 2019, 02:16 PM   #1242
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Would you agree that all religions are based on some central belief in something?

Chris B.
Well in buddhism the central tenant of the Alleged Historic Buddha is anatta, 'there is no self'.
This is the basis of all parts of the eight-fold path.
So in the case of the teachings of the AHB the central assertion is that a belief in the self is false.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:14 PM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes we have a problem about understanding here and it doesn't help if you are not familiar with the meaning of the words you are using. Translate is not the same as transliterate. ห้องน้ำ translated means "room water" as I said and is similar to an English description as I said. Your "hong nam" is a clumsy attempt at transliteration as I pointed out.

I ask again .... What was the point again? What is the "norm" we shape our beliefs to match?
If you wish to split hairs, your Thai to English transliteration "hawng narm" of my "hong nam" would be a bit off as Thais have a particular problem pronouncing the letter "R". If you actually spoke the language instead of searching the net for electronic gray matter, you'd have known this already. Of course we are only discussing opinions about the different approaches. As you have proven, nobody is perfect.

Maybe you can look at it this way: A bathroom is a toilet is a wash room is a restroom is a commode is a hong nam is a toalet is a toaleta is a bagno etc. Did this one work for you?

Chris B.
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Old 9th April 2019, 04:31 PM   #1244
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Well in buddhism the central tenant of the Alleged Historic Buddha is anatta, 'there is no self'.
This is the basis of all parts of the eight-fold path.
So in the case of the teachings of the AHB the central assertion is that a belief in the self is false.
Buddhism does not claim to worship a god yet bases its central belief system on "The Buddha", who just happened to perform miracles. Sound familiar? Sounds like magic to me.

Chris B.
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Old 9th April 2019, 08:37 PM   #1245
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Would you agree that all religions are based on some central belief in something?

Chris B.
I'm not sure. What do you propose?
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Old 9th April 2019, 09:55 PM   #1246
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If you wish to split hairs, your Thai to English transliteration "hawng narm" of my "hong nam" would be a bit off as Thais have a particular problem pronouncing the letter "R". If you actually spoke the language instead of searching the net for electronic gray matter, you'd have known this already. Of course we are only discussing opinions about the different approaches. As you have proven, nobody is perfect.

Maybe you can look at it this way: A bathroom is a toilet is a wash room is a restroom is a commode is a hong nam is a toalet is a toaleta is a bagno etc. Did this one work for you?

Chris B.

Well as it happens after living in Thailand for 6 to 7 years I do have a knowledge of Thai. Not fluent but can make my way in simple conversation. Your knowledge of English may be a bit questionable however, as you seem to struggle with the meaning of translation and transliteration.

Still waiting for an answer to my question:

I ask again .... What was the point again? What is the "norm" we shape our beliefs to match?
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Old 9th April 2019, 11:32 PM   #1247
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well as it happens after living in Thailand for 6 to 7 years I do have a knowledge of Thai. Not fluent but can make my way in simple conversation. Your knowledge of English may be a bit questionable however, as you seem to struggle with the meaning of translation and transliteration.

Still waiting for an answer to my question:

I ask again .... What was the point again? What is the "norm" we shape our beliefs to match?
That's interesting. I would think that would be long enough to have known about the difficulty pronouncing the "R" for Thais. I do not come here to nit pick or trade blows, though I will and do return the sentiment.

Across cultures as far as religion is concerned there is a belief in something central to the practice of that particular religion or group. It is something that is beyond the physical and usually claims of miracles are associated with it and or the central figure. I consider this to be a belief of a Supreme Being of some type. Even the example of the supposed "godless" practice of Buddhism discussed above holds a central figure at its core, one that was said to have performed miracles.

Would you agree? Or care provide an exception? I feel as though I'm communicating in English well enough to be understood by most English speakers. I'm open to discussion yet if you feel the need to spell check me or split hairs over my use of a single term or syntax, just let me know and we'll go our separate ways no harm done.

Chris B.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:19 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Would you agree that all religions are based on some central belief in something?

Chris B.
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I'm not sure. What do you propose?
Well, I advance my answer.

Religions are the result of a human feeling of inadequacy and limitation. When it becomes unbearable, this feeling causes belief in some entities that have the power that humanity lacks. Gods and ghosts are the embodiment of these forces made in the image of man. Given the diversity of the human, gods are diverse. Since man projects himself into Nature and Nature is infinite, the diversity of the gods is infinite. That is why "god" is one of man's vaguest ideas. Almost empty.

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Old 10th April 2019, 12:40 PM   #1249
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Buddhism does not claim to worship a god yet bases its central belief system on "The Buddha", who just happened to perform miracles. Sound familiar? Sounds like magic to me.

Chris B.
Sounds like you don't care much for history, now do you?

The alleged historic buddha may or may not have existed, but they did not preform miracles in the original teachings.

But please carry on your over assertion of your own beliefs
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Old 10th April 2019, 02:52 PM   #1250
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
That's interesting. I would think that would be long enough to have known about the difficulty pronouncing the "R" for Thais. I do not come here to nit pick or trade blows, though I will and do return the sentiment.

Across cultures as far as religion is concerned there is a belief in something central to the practice of that particular religion or group. It is something that is beyond the physical and usually claims of miracles are associated with it and or the central figure. I consider this to be a belief of a Supreme Being of some type. Even the example of the supposed "godless" practice of Buddhism discussed above holds a central figure at its core, one that was said to have performed miracles.

Would you agree? Or care provide an exception? I feel as though I'm communicating in English well enough to be understood by most English speakers. I'm open to discussion yet if you feel the need to spell check me or split hairs over my use of a single term or syntax, just let me know and we'll go our separate ways no harm done.

Chris B.

This is a bit tedious but at least we may have made some progress in our understanding of transliteration.

Don't really see anything profound in your hypothesis about central beliefs - you might as well be saying most people agree that trees are green. There are some exceptions to your statement however including animism - mentioned by someone else above as I recall. The Australian Aboriginals have religious or spiritual beliefs that don't seem to centre on one figure also.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:12 PM   #1251
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is a bit tedious but at least we may have made some progress in our understanding of transliteration.

Don't really see anything profound in your hypothesis about central beliefs - you might as well be saying most people agree that trees are green. There are some exceptions to your statement however including animism - mentioned by someone else above as I recall. The Australian Aboriginals have religious or spiritual beliefs that don't seem to centre on one figure also.
Attributing supernatural powers to an animal or plant is belief in the supernatural. Different cultures have different beliefs yet at the center we still find the supernatural. Something beyond man's understanding which sparks religion. To me this would mean a Supreme Being, to them it would mean a Supreme Kangaroo or other plant/animal?

Chris B.
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Old 10th April 2019, 07:18 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Sounds like you don't care much for history, now do you?

The alleged historic buddha may or may not have existed, but they did not preform miracles in the original teachings.

But please carry on your over assertion of your own beliefs
If you have a link handy I'd be happy to view it. I'm all for history. I know of the "reluctant miracles" but if there is some other text to suggest these did not happen I welcome the education. I'll be first to admit that I don't know everything, but I'm working to correct that flaw daily.

Chris B.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:03 PM   #1253
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
To me this would mean a Supreme Being, to them it would mean a Supreme Kangaroo or other plant/animal?
Usually, in supernatural beliefs of that type, "Supreme" isn't even remotely applicable. "Everything, organic and inorganic, has a supernatural spirit" doesn't really lend itself to there being a Supreme being, though one could be inserted. Ancestor worship doesn't lend itself to a Supreme being, either. "Supreme" makes for a distinctly misleading description at best in a number of supernatural belief sets about gods, for that matter. Head deities in polytheistic beliefs are in charge, but are frequently not the best at most things.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:27 PM   #1254
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If you have a link handy I'd be happy to view it. I'm all for history. I know of the "reluctant miracles" but if there is some other text to suggest these did not happen I welcome the education. I'll be first to admit that I don't know everything, but I'm working to correct that flaw daily.

Chris B.
Wikipedia's generally a good place to start. With that said, Buddhism, as the 4th most popular religion, unsurprisingly has a bunch of stories that invoke miracles being passed around and I, certainly, don't feel like picking through them. What can be said is that any miracle stories are completely unnecessary to Buddhism, given that Buddha's actual teachings don't rely on miracles and can be said to have relatively little to do with the supernatural, outside of the reincarnation part (even then, some Buddhists believe in a not supernatural form of that).

To borrow a quote from quora:

Quote:
It's important to remember that Buddhism isn't taught as revealed truth. Buddhists don't consider their religion to be a set of doctrines handed down by God, but rather the result of one man's profound insights into the nature of the world and human suffering.
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Old 10th April 2019, 11:35 PM   #1255
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Attributing supernatural powers to an animal or plant is belief in the supernatural. Different cultures have different beliefs yet at the center we still find the supernatural. Something beyond man's understanding which sparks religion. To me this would mean a Supreme Being, to them it would mean a Supreme Kangaroo or other plant/animal?

Chris B.
Your problem resides in "Supreme". It is a concept common to Western religions, but it does not correspond to other religions where there is no idea of a god who is on a different plane than others. Several examples have been cited in this forum.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:15 AM   #1256
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Attributing supernatural powers to an animal or plant is belief in the supernatural. Different cultures have different beliefs yet at the center we still find the supernatural. Something beyond man's understanding which sparks religion. To me this would mean a Supreme Being, to them it would mean a Supreme Kangaroo or other plant/animal?

Chris B.
Wow, do you have a monotheistic world view or something.

A Supreme Kangaroo seems to be an imposition of your conclusions ahead of time.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:31 AM   #1257
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If you have a link handy I'd be happy to view it. I'm all for history. I know of the "reluctant miracles" but if there is some other text to suggest these did not happen I welcome the education. I'll be first to admit that I don't know everything, but I'm working to correct that flaw daily.

Chris B.
Hi Chris,
Here is the thing there are multiple syncretic strains of buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism (just informational)

There is the first branch of buddhism, limited to current day India and the followers of the AHB.

The first followers created their own followers and teachings, although there is a story that the followers all got together and tried to recite all the oral traditions of the buddha and then the ones that they were in agreement on became the Pali Canon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada

Theravada is believed to be closest to the teachings of the AHB, and while it mentions various Hindu deities , notable Mara, it has lees of the miracles of the AHB than later off shoots.

very rapidly even among the Theravada schools different strains developed and then there was the spread of the teachings of the AHB outside of India. This was a very different set of off shoots, in that local beliefs and customs were incorporated into buddhism,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana

Now add to this the exchanges of idea by all the schools as they interact with local cultures and beliefs and you soon get a large stew of different beliefs. So you get Tara, Kwan Yin, Avelokiteshvara , demons gods and a host of supernatural beliefs as time goes by.

Now given the fact the the AHB existed in the Hindu culture and historically the Hindu religious groups have also taken over former buddhist sites and tried to erase them, it became a very complex historical interaction.

However in Theravada the AHB is a teacher, they are not needed for the eight fold path nor is there any faith in them other than as a teacher and in fact students are encouraged to explore and test the teachings. This is in direct contrast to say Amitabha where faith is a source of enlightenment.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:27 PM   #1258
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Usually, in supernatural beliefs of that type, "Supreme" isn't even remotely applicable. "Everything, organic and inorganic, has a supernatural spirit" doesn't really lend itself to there being a Supreme being, though one could be inserted. Ancestor worship doesn't lend itself to a Supreme being, either. "Supreme" makes for a distinctly misleading description at best in a number of supernatural belief sets about gods, for that matter. Head deities in polytheistic beliefs are in charge, but are frequently not the best at most things.
To me, the focus on the central figure applicable to supernatural beliefs would make that thing "Supreme", whether it is a person, plant, animal or other.
Insertion of "being" is relevant to my particular culture of course. It makes no difference as one can simply insert "X" for what they hold as the center of their supernatural belief system.

Chris B.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:45 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Attributing supernatural powers to an animal or plant is belief in the supernatural. Different cultures have different beliefs yet at the center we still find the supernatural. Something beyond man's understanding which sparks religion. To me this would mean a Supreme Being, to them it would mean a Supreme Kangaroo or other plant/animal?

Chris B.
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Wow, do you have a monotheistic world view or something.

A Supreme Kangaroo seems to be an imposition of your conclusions ahead of time.

Yes David this gets sillier as we move along. Supreme Kangaroos ect doesn't sound much like The Australian aborigines spiritual beliefs I've heard of. None the less Chris may have a flair for making up religions and this might get attention with some.
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:57 PM   #1260
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Wow, do you have a monotheistic world view or something.

A Supreme Kangaroo seems to be an imposition of your conclusions ahead of time.
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Hi Chris,
Here is the thing there are multiple syncretic strains of buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism (just informational)

There is the first branch of buddhism, limited to current day India and the followers of the AHB.

The first followers created their own followers and teachings, although there is a story that the followers all got together and tried to recite all the oral traditions of the buddha and then the ones that they were in agreement on became the Pali Canon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada

Theravada is believed to be closest to the teachings of the AHB, and while it mentions various Hindu deities , notable Mara, it has lees of the miracles of the AHB than later off shoots.

very rapidly even among the Theravada schools different strains developed and then there was the spread of the teachings of the AHB outside of India. This was a very different set of off shoots, in that local beliefs and customs were incorporated into buddhism,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana

Now add to this the exchanges of idea by all the schools as they interact with local cultures and beliefs and you soon get a large stew of different beliefs. So you get Tara, Kwan Yin, Avelokiteshvara , demons gods and a host of supernatural beliefs as time goes by.

Now given the fact the the AHB existed in the Hindu culture and historically the Hindu religious groups have also taken over former buddhist sites and tried to erase them, it became a very complex historical interaction.

However in Theravada the AHB is a teacher, they are not needed for the eight fold path nor is there any faith in them other than as a teacher and in fact students are encouraged to explore and test the teachings. This is in direct contrast to say Amitabha where faith is a source of enlightenment.
I'm a victim of my culture. I see our cultural "Supreme" supernatural as a "Being" I'm aware others have a different view that list their "Supreme" supernatural as something(s) else.


Thank you for the wiki links, I was aware of the information listed at wiki. I was hoping someone may have reviewed a scholarly work (with title) with research of the written text they could recommend. (I'd rather try a recommended book than a shot in the dark at the various works cited.) It's perfectly fine though.

Chris B.
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:01 PM   #1261
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes David this gets sillier as we move along. Supreme Kangaroos ect doesn't sound much like The Australian aborigines spiritual beliefs I've heard of. None the less Chris may have a flair for making up religions and this might get attention with some.
Can you provide evidence of a religion that is not based on supernatural beliefs?

Chris B.
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:35 PM   #1262
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
To me, the focus on the central figure applicable to supernatural beliefs would make that thing "Supreme", whether it is a person, plant, animal or other.
Insertion of "being" is relevant to my particular culture of course. It makes no difference as one can simply insert "X" for what they hold as the center of their supernatural belief system.

Chris B.
However animism does not generally have a central figure, individuals may have spirit guides and totems, but there often is no central tenant.
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:47 PM   #1263
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Can you provide evidence of a religion that is not based on supernatural beliefs?

Chris B.

Oops, a change in emphasis or strategy or something here. I though you were on about a "Supreme Being of some type" being the cornerstone of all religions. Now that many have dealt with this quite effectively you are suggesting something a bit more vague.
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Old 11th April 2019, 02:50 PM   #1264
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I'm a victim of my culture. I see our cultural "Supreme" supernatural as a "Being" I'm aware others have a different view that list their "Supreme" supernatural as something(s) else.


Thank you for the wiki links, I was aware of the information listed at wiki. I was hoping someone may have reviewed a scholarly work (with title) with research of the written text they could recommend. (I'd rather try a recommended book than a shot in the dark at the various works cited.) It's perfectly fine though.

Chris B.
there are so many sources.
I would recommend reading translations of the Pali canon, they are numerous and based off of the oral tradition. They are repetitive and a better sense comes from the long form transitions

Each has their own beliefs of the teachings of the AHB.

Such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, I find it to mean there is no self and that is my interpretation of anatta. Some believe other wise.

I personally like Thich Naht Hahn, my wife prefers the Dalai Lama
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:10 PM   #1265
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
To me, the focus on the central figure applicable to supernatural beliefs would make that thing "Supreme", whether it is a person, plant, animal or other.
Insertion of "being" is relevant to my particular culture of course. It makes no difference as one can simply insert "X" for what they hold as the center of their supernatural belief system.

Chris B.
In the first couple examples, though, there is NO central figure, normally. Barely even any that meaningfully stand out from the crowd, if any at all. They aren't even necessarily powerful in a meaningful sense of powerful.

In the polytheistic traditions that I mentioned, there's generally not really a specific central figure, either, for that matter, though. If we look at Norse and Greek, for example, gods aren't even the only powerful beings and may well be weaker than some of the other beings. They're only a really focus point because they make for fun tales.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Can you provide evidence of a religion that is not based on supernatural beliefs?

Chris B.
Secular humanism!

Obviously atypical, but it qualifies!
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:27 PM   #1266
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There is no focus on a single "supreme being" in Australian Aboriginal beliefs. As David Horton put it in his Encyclopedia of Aboriginal Australia,

Quote:
"A mythic map of Australia would show thousands of characters, varying in their importance, but all in some way connected with the land. Some emerged at their specific sites and stayed spiritually in that vicinity. Others came from somewhere else and went somewhere else."

"Many were shape changing, transformed from or into human beings or natural species, or into natural features such as rocks but all left something of their spiritual essence at the places noted in their stories."
source
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Old 12th April 2019, 12:25 AM   #1267
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oops, a change in emphasis or strategy or something here. I though you were on about a "Supreme Being of some type" being the cornerstone of all religions. Now that many have dealt with this quite effectively you are suggesting something a bit more vague.
Not at all. Each religion has its own supernatural belief and attributes. As I have said from the first each is unique to their culture. It seemed to me as there was some suggestion that religion did not require the supernatural, hence why I asked that question. The magic is required or you won't have the religion.

Chris B.
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Old 12th April 2019, 12:51 AM   #1268
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There is no focus on a single "supreme being" in Australian Aboriginal beliefs. As David Horton put it in his Encyclopedia of Aboriginal Australia,



source
I guess they had their difficulties communicating with over 200 different languages spoken. Throw in several hundred dialects and that's a lot of communication issues.

I did find this in Brittanica:

"The worldview of Aboriginal peoples centred on “the Dreaming,” or “dream-time,” a complex and comprehensive concept embodying the past, present, and future as well as virtually every aspect of life. It includes the creative era at the dawn of time, when mythic beings shaped the land and populated it with flora, fauna, and human beings and left behind the rules for social life. After their physical death and transformation into heavenly or earthly bodies, the indestructible creative beings withdrew from the earth into the spiritual realm."

So it would appear they did have "Supreme Being(s)" after all.

Chris B.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:06 AM   #1269
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
In the first couple examples, though, there is NO central figure, normally. Barely even any that meaningfully stand out from the crowd, if any at all. They aren't even necessarily powerful in a meaningful sense of powerful.

In the polytheistic traditions that I mentioned, there's generally not really a specific central figure, either, for that matter, though. If we look at Norse and Greek, for example, gods aren't even the only powerful beings and may well be weaker than some of the other beings. They're only a really focus point because they make for fun tales.



Secular humanism!

Obviously atypical, but it qualifies!
I've copied and pasted to my reading schedule David's suggestions on text. So I have an open mind at this point.

Ah yes, but even those polytheistic examples include "Odin" and "Zeus".



Secular Humanism......Clever points awarded, as that was very witty, well done. (But still technically a philosophy and not religion)

Chris B.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:58 AM   #1270
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Ah yes, but even those polytheistic examples include "Odin" and "Zeus".
I did pointedly account for them, did I not? It's worth remembering that they were far from all powerful, to put it nicely. Odin wasn't the strongest, fastest, most creative, etc. In Ragnorak, Odin is foretold to die rather pointlessly, for that matter. Zeus got overthrown for a while and took... interesting precautions to prevent a future son of his from doing to him what he did to his father. They're the leaders, yes, but calling them Supreme in anything close to the sense that, say, Christianity invokes is wildly wrong.



Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Secular Humanism......Clever points awarded, as that was very witty, well done. (But still technically a philosophy and not religion)

Chris B.
Ahh, right. Religious humanism might have been a more appropriate answer there!
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:48 AM   #1271
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
In the first couple examples, though, there is NO central figure, normally. Barely even any that meaningfully stand out from the crowd, if any at all. They aren't even necessarily powerful in a meaningful sense of powerful.

In the polytheistic traditions that I mentioned, there's generally not really a specific central figure, either, for that matter, though. If we look at Norse and Greek, for example, gods aren't even the only powerful beings and may well be weaker than some of the other beings. They're only a really focus point because they make for fun tales.



Secular humanism!

Obviously atypical, but it qualifies!
And in fact what we have of Norse mythos and Greek is often filtered through a monotheistic filter to clean it for Victorian audiences.

And to add to this, the Odin of one group is not going to be the Odin of another group. Different village would have had different sects and different models of theri diesties
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:54 AM   #1272
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Not at all. Each religion has its own supernatural belief and attributes. As I have said from the first each is unique to their culture. It seemed to me as there was some suggestion that religion did not require the supernatural, hence why I asked that question. The magic is required or you won't have the religion.

Chris B.
I am not sure shamanism or animism is religion, some are that involve deities and worship, but often there is interaction with the elements,spirits and the like. Others many are just like a herbalist working with plants and poultices, using spirits and elements in the moment, or a spirit guide as a teacher
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:02 PM   #1273
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Not at all. Each religion has its own supernatural belief and attributes. As I have said from the first each is unique to their culture. It seemed to me as there was some suggestion that religion did not require the supernatural, hence why I asked that question. The magic is required or you won't have the religion.

Chris B.

Wow! I give you an "A" for persistence, but the theme of what you persist about is vague. Whats say we just agree that all religions have religious beliefs and leave it at that? You are coping a lot of flak here when you try and make a general claim that is more specific.
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Old 12th April 2019, 02:38 PM   #1274
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I am not sure shamanism or animism is religion, some are that involve deities and worship, but often there is interaction with the elements,spirits and the like. Others many are just like a herbalist working with plants and poultices, using spirits and elements in the moment, or a spirit guide as a teacher
I think Animism would definitely qualify as a religion.

I'd agree that Shamanism is a tricky one though. It does center on Nature and healing properties etc in practice. When we look at plants, obviously there are many with medicinal values to humans. The role of "Medicine Man" was undoubtedly an important one in many cultures for healing. But, in some practices/applications where plants are used to access the "Spirit World", (by visions etc) the emphasis shifts into something beyond Nature or healing into spiritual guidance. To me, that crosses the line into religion. I guess it's a matter of perspective for each.

Chris B.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:40 AM   #1275
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Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
If "no one comes to the father except through Christ", what does that mean?
Well in my very abstract view, with little-to-no programmed background belief, I came to understand (or misunderstand) this as meaning "Christ" referred to a redemptive process that reconciles us with the inevitable.

In my old city a sign saying "Peace is submission to God" was writ large at a former mosque. The imam of that mosque had been murdered by a cabal of terrorists piqued by his rejection of some parts of the Qu'ran. A girlfriend of mine said the slogan sounded authoritarian. I said, how about "Peace is acceptance of the inevitable?" She thought that sounded very Zen. To me they were flip sides of the same statement.

I had a very personal and intricate attachment to that mosque/slogan and it was a recurring and very persistent theme in a process that changed my relationship with reality - even though I think the imam originally responsible for the sign was mentally ill.

Quote:
Say the right prayer? Believe the right doctrine? or is it the "fruit of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness ...) that actually shows that the example of Christ is actively leading someone towards an understanding of (and communion with) God. If "everyone who loves is born of God and knows God", that is much more far-reaching idea than, everyone who says this prayer gets into heaven.
"By their fruits you will know them" is sort of my slogan for false ideologies. It gives me ample evidence to reject almost the whole of organized religion. Someone who lights a cigarette for a shaking homeless alcoholic on his second day of sobriety seems holier to me than virtually all religion. There are a few other bits of the Bible I like but many more I loathe.
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Old 14th April 2019, 05:58 PM   #1276
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I guess they had their difficulties communicating with over 200 different languages spoken. Throw in several hundred dialects and that's a lot of communication issues.

I did find this in Brittanica:

"The worldview of Aboriginal peoples centred on “the Dreaming,” or “dream-time,” a complex and comprehensive concept embodying the past, present, and future as well as virtually every aspect of life. It includes the creative era at the dawn of time, when mythic beings shaped the land and populated it with flora, fauna, and human beings and left behind the rules for social life. After their physical death and transformation into heavenly or earthly bodies, the indestructible creative beings withdrew from the earth into the spiritual realm."

So it would appear they did have "Supreme Being(s)" after all.

Chris B.
There's a vast difference between mythic creator spirits and a "Supreme Being".
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:18 PM   #1277
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There's a vast difference between mythic creator spirits and a "Supreme Being".
It's monotheism that usually gets out of hand, though Hindus are giving a good show lately. Point well taken.
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Old 15th April 2019, 02:23 PM   #1278
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
"By their fruits you will know them" is sort of my slogan for false ideologies. It gives me ample evidence to reject almost the whole of organized religion. Someone who lights a cigarette for a shaking homeless alcoholic on his second day of sobriety seems holier to me than virtually all religion. There are a few other bits of the Bible I like but many more I loathe.
The Good Samaritan and the Golden Rule, my faves. No ideology necessarily attached.
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