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Old 18th March 2019, 04:40 PM   #1
Senex
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Does anyone believe god acknowledged the magic of pedophile priests?

For the sake of argument I'm going to say that it is likely if there is a god he doesn't give the power of forgiving original sin, or marriage or forgiving all sins to pedophiles. You would think a god has standards.

So does that mean any Catholics who used a priest who turned out to be a pedophile should get their stuff redone and even their dead relatives stuff redone posthumously?
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Old 18th March 2019, 04:56 PM   #2
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On the other hand, if everything happens according to God's plan, wouldn't it mean that God PLANNED to let a bunch of priests play with kids?
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:08 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
On the other hand, if everything happens according to God's plan, wouldn't it mean that God PLANNED to let a bunch of priests play with kids?
My argument is that evil Catholic priests can't have magic by definition.

Your argument is different.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
My argument is that evil Catholic priests can't have magic by definition.

Your argument is different.
But you're saying what ought to be and presuming rules that make some sort of sense. But the rules don't make sense anyway, and the Church makes them. It does not seem that the defrocking of a priest is retroactive, and the faith of the parishioner is presumably the same. Aside from the administrative nightmare of having to rewind every time a priest is found to be a hypocrite, you would have to make the judgment that moral shortcomings invalidate priesthood. And that, I suspect, would open up another can of worms in a faith that is predicated on the idea that everybody is always at least a little bit bad.

Anyway, what kind of criterion would you use to decide whether this miracle is more reasonable than that one? It's like worrying whether the speedometer in Doctor Brown's DeLorean is accurate.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But you're saying what ought to be and presuming rules that make some sort of sense. But the rules don't make sense anyway, and the Church makes them. It does not seem that the defrocking of a priest is retroactive, and the faith of the parishioner is presumably the same. Aside from the administrative nightmare of having to rewind every time a priest is found to be a hypocrite, you would have to make the judgment that moral shortcomings invalidate priesthood. And that, I suspect, would open up another can of worms in a faith that is predicated on the idea that everybody is always at least a little bit bad.

Anyway, what kind of criterion would you use to decide whether this miracle is more reasonable than that one? It's like worrying whether the speedometer in Doctor Brown's DeLorean is accurate.
Some priests behaved malevolently by anyone's standard. The universe couldn't reward those people by giving them the ability to forgive someone else's sin. Those priests had to be fake. They had no power. They need to have all their blessings reperformed.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:44 PM   #6
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As far as I know, according to Catholic doctrine, once you have taken the sacrament of priestly orders, nothing short of excommunication can make you not a priest any more.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:52 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know, according to Catholic doctrine, once you have taken the sacrament of priestly orders, nothing short of excommunication can make you not a priest any more.
I'm talking if the magic was actually performed -- not what the church prattles on about.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:56 PM   #8
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Catholic Ten Commandments:-
  1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
  2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
  3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
  4. Honor your father and your mother.
  5. You shall not kill.
  6. You shall not commit adultery.
  7. You shall not steal.
  8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
  10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
Notice what isn't in that list? Being a pedophile.


Quote:
My argument is that evil Catholic priests can't have magic by definition.
Magic is supernatural, and the Supernatural does not exist by definition - so yes, you are right.

But the 'evil pedophile' thing is a red herring. Assuming this god exists, He has done far worse things himself than being sexually attracted to minors. A god who quite happily drowns the whole World, destroys entire cities or kills a man's 10 children and gives him boils to win a bet with Satan probably wouldn't have any qualms about channeling his magic through 'pedophile' priests.

And let us not forget that God is a rapist.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
I'm talking if the magic was actually performed -- not what the church prattles on about.
But the two are intimately related. The answer to your question is yes, a paedophile priest still has the power to perform sacraments including the Eucharist, Marriage, Baptism, Confession and the Last Rites.

Unless they are excommunicated. Which is one really good reason to press for the excommunication of convicted paedophiles.
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
My argument is that evil Catholic priests can't have magic by definition.

Your argument is different.
But, but, The Devil made them do it. They have and use Devil magic
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:24 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
a paedophile priest still has the power to perform sacraments including the Eucharist, Marriage, Baptism, Confession and the Last Rites.

Unless they are excommunicated.
That's what the Church says, but what about God? It's been suggested that He probably doesn't give the power of forgiving original sin, or marriage or forgiving all sins to pedophiles - because He has standards. So to determine the likelihood of those priests actually having the magic of God we need to examine those standards.

By present-day standards God is a rapist, mass murderer, and genocidal maniac. And it would appear that He has been handing out His magic to anyone with sufficient conviction(s), with nary a question of whether they are worthy. So if God has any standards at all, they are pretty low.
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Old 18th March 2019, 06:51 PM   #12
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On the (unlikely) chance this was a serious question, here's the doctrinal answer:

Quote:
...the Church has taught that the sacraments act ex opere operato, that is “by the very fact of the action’s being performed.” The efficacy of the sacrament does not depend upon the human minister– whether a bishop, priest, deacon, or layperson– being free of mortal sin and thereby in a state of grace. Here then is the distinction between Christ who instituted the sacraments and acts through them to communicate His grace, and the human person who acts as Christ’s minister in performing the sacrament.
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St. Augustine (354-430) was the great champion of true Catholic teaching. In his In Ioannis evangelium tractatus, he forcefully distinguished the action of Christ versus the action of the minister when performing a sacrament: Christ acts by His power, while the minister acts by his ministry entrusted to him by Christ. Therefore, “…those whom Judas baptized, Christ baptized. So too, then, those whom a drunkard baptized, those whom a murderer baptized, those whom an adulterer baptized, if the Baptism was of Christ, Christ baptized”
Quote:
St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1224) taught, “The sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God” (Summa Theologiae, III, 68, 8).
http://catholicstraightanswers.com/i...er-sacraments/
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:04 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
That's what the Church says, but what about God? It's been suggested that He probably doesn't give the power of forgiving original sin, or marriage or forgiving all sins to pedophiles - because He has standards. So to determine the likelihood of those priests actually having the magic of God we need to examine those standards.

By present-day standards God is a rapist, mass murderer, and genocidal maniac. And it would appear that He has been handing out His magic to anyone with sufficient conviction(s), with nary a question of whether they are worthy. So if God has any standards at all, they are pretty low.
I'm not going to argue with you about that. But I am answering the question by saying that yes, members of the Catholic Church believe that God still acknowledges the magic of paedophile priests. To use the language of the OP.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:26 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
On the (unlikely) chance this was a serious question, here's the doctrinal answer:...
Thanks, but where's your footnotes that this came down from the big guy himself? Twelve years of parochial education and I never read this. I have a good memory.

It's possible spiritual atonement can be reached, but not through these rascals.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Thanks, but where's your footnotes that this came down from the big guy himself? Twelve years of parochial education and I never read this. I have a good memory.

It's possible spiritual atonement can be reached, but not through these rascals.
The other thing is that no-one has so far said anything about non-Catholic priests. Protestant and Orthodox churches can and do have different doctrinal approaches.
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Old 19th March 2019, 12:50 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Catholic Ten Commandments:-
  1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
  2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
  3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
  4. Honor your father and your mother.
  5. You shall not kill.
  6. You shall not commit adultery.
  7. You shall not steal.
  8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
  10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
Notice what isn't in that list? Being a pedophile.
I'd add that not only that, but it's nowhere in the rest of the bible either. For better or worse, God finds the time to give over 600 more rules in the OT, including stuff like whether you can wear mixed fiber clothes, whether you can haz cheezburger, etc. Nowhere does he set a minimum age for sex.

(Interesting side note, he also never gives any rule against dicking your own daughter, even though other close relatives are forbidden.)

Jesus comes around and manages to give a couple of New Rules, but again, nothing about dicking children.


Quite the opposite, in fact, if you connect the dots. Jesus damns anyone who would prevent the children from coming to him. So if you no longer send your kids to church because the priest is a paedophile, YOU are on Jesus's wrong side, the priest ain't. And if the RCC hadn't covered up for the paedophile priest, then THAT would have arguably been damnable by Jesus himself.
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Old 19th March 2019, 06:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
On the (unlikely) chance this was a serious question, here's the doctrinal answer:







http://catholicstraightanswers.com/i...er-sacraments/
Yep. The magic comes from God, not the priest. No vessel is worthy, but God uses unworthy vessels all the time. This shouldn't be a difficult concept.
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Old 19th March 2019, 06:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Thanks, but where's your footnotes that this came down from the big guy himself? Twelve years of parochial education and I never read this. I have a good memory.



It's possible spiritual atonement can be reached, but not through these rascals.
Where's your memo from on high, about the way it really works?

But you're equivoctaing. You want to stipulate the God of Catholic doctrine for your argument, but you dismiss arguments from Catholic doctrine.

Also, you're begging the questions of mechanism to satisfy your argument, which is a fallacy.

Your argument fails because you give us no reason to accept the initial assumptions. If we do accept them, the argument succeeds, but in circular fashion, with no external support.

What was the point of this thread?
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:45 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'd add that not only that, but it's nowhere in the rest of the bible either. For better or worse, God finds the time to give over 600 more rules in the OT, including stuff like whether you can wear mixed fiber clothes, whether you can haz cheezburger, etc. Nowhere does he set a minimum age for sex.

(Interesting side note, he also never gives any rule against dicking your own daughter, even though other close relatives are forbidden.)

Jesus comes around and manages to give a couple of New Rules, but again, nothing about dicking children.


Quite the opposite, in fact, if you connect the dots. Jesus damns anyone who would prevent the children from coming to him. So if you no longer send your kids to church because the priest is a paedophile, YOU are on Jesus's wrong side, the priest ain't. And if the RCC hadn't covered up for the paedophile priest, then THAT would have arguably been damnable by Jesus himself.
Yeah, no. There's tons to criticize the Catholic church (as a whole and multiple individuals) about re abuse, but your characterization of Catholic doctrine especially your last paragraph is just plain wrong.

Just for a starter, Catholic view of "adultery" includes prohibiting sexual activities with children (and anyone else not married to - so if you want to criticize marriage with minors go ahead, but that's a specific subset not re priests).

Now, if you mean some people may have helped hide abuse and falsely tried to justify their behaviour to themselves on the basis that it was better to cover up then have a scandal, then yes, some people did have such motivations; but they were wrong and had no Catholic teaching or doctrine that would support such (slight caveat, if only knew about something through confession, but I've never heard of any abuse in which it wasn't known/suspected for other reasons).
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:50 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
My argument is that evil Catholic priests can't have magic by definition.



Your argument is different.
Do you really think the RCC hasn't come across this issue before in it's almost 2000 years of existence?

If the priest had been ordained* then they can carry out all blessings etc regardless of their personal sins.


*Simplification but I think it gets the point across.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Some priests behaved malevolently by anyone's standard. The universe couldn't reward those people by giving them the ability to forgive someone else's sin. Those priests had to be fake. They had no power. They need to have all their blessings reperformed.
If you want to start your own church feel free to do so but the RCC is quite clear on these matters and gives a gnat's arse to what you or I may think of their doctrine.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Do you really think the RCC hasn't come across this issue before in it's almost 2000 years of existence?
I think it's fair to say that the RCC hasn't put much effort into developing apologetics for Senex's version of god, which they don't subscribe to.

But then, since they don't subscribe to Senex's version of god, they don't really have to solve the problems Senex has with god.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Thanks, but where's your footnotes that this came down from the big guy himself? Twelve years of parochial education and I never read this. I have a good memory.



It's possible spiritual atonement can be reached, but not through these rascals.
You went to a RC school and the authority of the church was never mentioned? I'm rather surprised.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:57 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The other thing is that no-one has so far said anything about non-Catholic priests. Protestant and Orthodox churches can and do have different doctrinal approaches.
I think you meant non Roman Catholic priests? The Roman bit is quite important as all the major churches consider themselves catholic.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's fair to say that the RCC hasn't put much effort into developing apologetics for Senex's version of god, which they don't subscribe to.



But then, since they don't subscribe to Senex's version of god, they don't really have to solve the problems Senex has with god.
Well put.
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Old 19th March 2019, 09:02 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know, according to Catholic doctrine, once you have taken the sacrament of priestly orders, nothing short of excommunication can make you not a priest any more.
Actually, ex-cardinal Theodore McCarrick was defrocked quite recently, but not, as far as I can tell, excommunicated.
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Old 19th March 2019, 09:03 AM   #27
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Don't all Abrahamic religions trace back to a whack job who heard voices and almost killed his own child in sacrifice? Can't expect anything sane or reasonable coming out of that.
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Old 19th March 2019, 09:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you meant non Roman Catholic priests? The Roman bit is quite important as all the major churches consider themselves catholic.
You made a couple of posts, rather than multiquote I'll quote one and reply to several.

Not what you were getting at, but there are also non-Roman Catholic churches that recognize the authority of the Pope (e.g. there are Eastern Rites Catholics whose liturgy is similar to Orthodox, but who are in communion with Rome, so a Roman Catholic can go to an Eastern Rites Catholic mass and receive communion and it's fine from the Roman Catholic perspective and vice versa, unlike a Roman Catholic going to an Anglican or Lutheran or Orthodox etc. mass and receiving communion which would be a problem).

Re Catholic school education, I went to normal public school and from talking to people who went to Catholic school, it seems I learned more as an adult just from going to RCIA (several hours a week for several months, though I've been back multiple times as a sponsor) than they did from their religion class, though in fairness, was that in part because I was an interested adult who wanted to learn, versus an indifferent high schooler with parents who sent them to Catholic school more because it provided a better education than the regular local public school alternatives?

Re baptism specifically, one need not be ordained (I mean from the Roman Catholic perspective) though that is the norm outside of emergencies. Specifically, even a baptism performed by an atheist is valid (and probably more welcome than a baptism performed by a pedophile, regardless of their beliefs...).
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Old 19th March 2019, 10:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Some priests behaved malevolently by anyone's standard. The universe couldn't reward those people by giving them the ability to forgive someone else's sin. Those priests had to be fake. They had no power. They need to have all their blessings reperformed.
Actually, what's your source that says their magic only works if you stay lawful good? Seems to me like, on the contrary, no such alignment requirement has ever been ever supported
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Old 19th March 2019, 11:29 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
My argument is that evil Catholic priests can't have magic by definition.
Your argument is fatally flawed in a couple of ways, related to the definition of Catholic priests.

By definition, Catholic priests don't have magic. God has magic, and he uses Catholic priests (among others) as conduits.

And also by definition, all Catholic priests are fundamentally evil (original sin, etc.)

A corollary from the previous two points is that evil Catholic priests can still serve as conduits for God's magic. But just in case this wasn't clear by implication, the Catholic church has seen fit to make it explicitly clear by definition.

You're trying to make an argument by definition, but rejecting the definition your argument supposedly depends on.
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Old 19th March 2019, 04:56 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think you meant non Roman Catholic priests? The Roman bit is quite important as all the major churches consider themselves catholic.
Quite right - my thanks for the correction.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:33 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
So does that mean any Catholics who used a priest who turned out to be a pedophile should get their stuff redone and even their dead relatives stuff redone posthumously?

It means that any given Catholic can adopt any personal interpretation of the religion any way he/she wants.
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Old 19th March 2019, 10:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Actually, ex-cardinal Theodore McCarrick was defrocked quite recently, but not, as far as I can tell, excommunicated.
As far as I know, and I'm not an expert, you can be stood down as a priest and directed to not perform priestly duties, but that doesn't make you not a priest. You can be "refrocked" at any time if your bishop, cardinal or pope wants to. Excommunication is permanent.
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:06 AM   #34
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No, it's not. Excommunication can also be lifted at any time. It might require some act of pennance, but that's about it.
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Old 20th March 2019, 08:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know, and I'm not an expert, you can be stood down as a priest and directed to not perform priestly duties, but that doesn't make you not a priest. You can be "refrocked" at any time if your bishop, cardinal or pope wants to. Excommunication is permanent.
All sins are forgivable. Even the so-called unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the holy spirit, to oversimplify, Catholic interpretation is it constitutes refusal to repent, which is linked to rejection of God's mercy despite believing in God (i.e. not believing in God is not refusal to repent, it's more believing and refusing that's the problem, which in a way is allowing humanity the exercise of free will including consequences; so it would be more like a theist who chooses to reject a loving merciful God that they believe in, not an atheist).

Laicization and excommunication are both reversable, though under Canon law it may require the pope to do so depending upon what was done (e.g. someone voluntarily laicized at their request e.g. because they want to marry, who years later is a widower and wants to become an active priest again would be very different from someone involuntarily laicized against their will, and different reasons for excommunication).

However, ordination is considered a sacrament, so laicization technically isn't saying someone is no longer a priest, it's saying they're forbidden from performing priestly duties (except I think confession if someone is in immediate danger of death).

All that said, and in addition to all the other bad and evil reasons for cover-ups, I think there was a terrible misprioritization. To me, forgiveness means forgiveness, not forgetfulness. If someone has abused children (or done something similarly terrible), it does not and should not mean no consequences, move them, trust them when they say it won't happen again. No, forgiveness can be coupled with, preventing them from ever being alone with children (subject to results of genuine investigation by competent authorities, because however rare, there are some false or mistaken reports of abuse).
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:09 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
All that said, and in addition to all the other bad and evil reasons for cover-ups, I think there was a terrible misprioritization. To me, forgiveness means forgiveness, not forgetfulness. If someone has abused children (or done something similarly terrible), it does not and should not mean no consequences, move them, trust them when they say it won't happen again. No, forgiveness can be coupled with, preventing them from ever being alone with children (subject to results of genuine investigation by competent authorities, because however rare, there are some false or mistaken reports of abuse).

I appreciate your knowledge of Catholicism. I would only add that forgiveness shouldn't be something granted by a bureaucracy, but should be granted by individuals. In other words, the Church should make a Priest's history known to the community and let each parishioner decide whether to forgive and trust that person again.

That being said, I am not Catholic and I have no interest in telling Catholics what to believe or how to organize themselves.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:51 PM   #37
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Fair enough. Like I said, not an expert. Most of my religious education was of the Pentecostal kind.
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Old 21st March 2019, 11:39 AM   #38
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And god would toss an immoral person between you and him because...
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:16 PM   #39
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... because he doesn't give a flip, like you seem to assume?

In the middle ages some theologians, including a pope were faced with the issue of children being married to each other for dynastic alliance purposes. Sometimes even infants. And decided they have to answer the question: so, if you married a child, at what age can you screw them, then? *AHEM* I mean, at what age can they give informed consent for sex? The answer they came up with was: 7 (SEVEN!) years old.

Now I know that not everything the pope says is infallible, but still, he's supposed to have the phone line to the Holy Spirit. Or viceversa. Or something. The Holy Spirit being one aspect of God. You'd think that if God had found that abhorrent, he would have given some pope along the line a call or a vision to the effect of, "Jesus Christ, are you guys <bleep>ing INSANE? SEVEN? SERIOUSLY?!"

In the meantime the same God managed to convince two popes -- since those ARE official infallible pronouncements -- that his mom was immaculately conceived for him to impregnate with himself, and respectively that she went bodily to heaven. Those were obviously more important issues.

So I think it's safe to conclude that God really doesn't give a flip about dicking anyone, as long as they're at least 7 years old.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:35 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Thanks, but where's your footnotes that this came down from the big guy himself? Twelve years of parochial education and I never read this. I have a good memory.

It's possible spiritual atonement can be reached, but not through these rascals.
I find the highlighted hard to believe.

I had just four years of Catholic School and was putting together a response similar to those provided by theprestige, Tragic Monkey and epeeist.
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