ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 21st March 2019, 01:56 PM   #41
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
And god would toss an immoral person between you and him because...
It's been explained to you multiple times, multiple different ways, in this thread. Instead of just repeating your initial argument, why not try to address one of the many rebuttals?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 02:18 PM   #42
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,284
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
And god would toss an immoral person between you and him because...

1. Catholics say they believe X.
2. My interpretation of X is Y.
3. Catholics therefore believe Y.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 02:28 PM   #43
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
1. Catholics say they believe X.
2. My interpretation of X is Y.
3. Catholics therefore believe Y.
Close. It's more like:

1. I say Catholics believe Y.
2. Catholics say explicitly that they believe X.
3. Catholics therefore believe Y.

Also:

ME: I just thought of something that invalidates all of Catholicism!

CATHOLICS: Actually, we noticed that and took care of it hundreds of years ago.

ME: Checkmate, Catholics!
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 04:43 PM   #44
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
How about...

1. I needed surgery on my heart.
2. The cardiologist I used turned out to be a quack.
3. Perhaps my surgery didn't really take and needs to be done again by a real cardiologist.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 04:55 PM   #45
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
How about...



1. I needed surgery on my heart.

2. The cardiologist I used turned out to be a quack.

3. Perhaps my surgery didn't really take and needs to be done again by a real cardiologist.
The problem here is that cardiology is not analogous to Catholicism, and Catholicism doesn't depend on the virtue of the practitioner for the success of the remedy.

Are you just going to keep repeating your claim, or are you actually going to address some of the rebuttals?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 05:16 PM   #46
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 61,132
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
So I think it's safe to conclude that God really doesn't give a flip about dicking anyone, as long as they're at least 7 years old.
Or, of course, that he doesn't really exist and all these doctrines and so forth were thought of by fallible humans.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 05:45 PM   #47
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,047
Well, or that. But I'm guessing that whoever believes that God doesn't actually exist, also doesn't really worry about whether the priest did a good job on their baptism and such
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 05:45 PM   #48
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it's fair to say that the RCC hasn't put much effort into developing apologetics for Senex's version of god, which they don't subscribe to.

But then, since they don't subscribe to Senex's version of god, they don't really have to solve the problems Senex has with god.
If you think I have problems with god you should hear my issues with the Easter Bunny.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem here is that cardiology is not analogous to Catholicism, and Catholicism doesn't depend on the virtue of the practitioner for the success of the remedy.
Says you.
Quote:
Are you just going to keep repeating your claim, or are you actually going to address some of the rebuttals?
Rebuttals include such facts as priests are only the conduits of the magic. A premise without a difference. If these guys can go around willy-nilly blessing stuff they have the magic.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 05:57 PM   #49
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,047
Even if you assume the magic is in the priest, you still haven't shown that it depends on the priest's alignment. It's just your word that it should fail for someone, say, chaotic evil. So, you, know, support that it actually fails to work in that case
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 06:03 PM   #50
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,304
If a catholic priest ever anywhere did anything wrong, then they were not a true catholic priest.

feel free to insert skirt wearing barbarians at your leisure.

Last edited by p0lka; 21st March 2019 at 06:05 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 06:07 PM   #51
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Even if you assume the magic is in the priest, you still haven't shown that it depends on the priest's alignment. It's just your word that it should fail for someone, say, chaotic evil. So, you, know, support that it actually fails to work in that case
Without knowing your definition of alignment or chaotic evil I will say that priests take a vow not to be evil. If they break the vow they aren't priests any longer. If the no longer priest did your service and I was a believer I'd hedge my bets and get it done again.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 06:10 PM   #52
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 20,660
I don't believe god acknowledges the magic of pedophile priests.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 07:07 PM   #53
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,284
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
How about...

1. I needed surgery on my heart.
1. I've chosen to get surgery on my heart for no specific reasons other than my personal belief that I should have one.


Quote:
2. The cardiologist I used turned out to be a quack.

2. The spiritual shaman I went to in Uganda who claimed to bloodless healing by magic touch turned out to not actually be certified by the Bloodless Magic Touch Healing Society.


Quote:
3. Perhaps my surgery didn't really take and needs to be done again by a real cardiologist.

3. As per my own personal whim, I've decided that whatever the guy was, he was good enough. Alternately, as per my own personal whim, I decided to go back and have a second psychic surgery by a BMTHS-certified healer.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 09:37 PM   #54
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,724
deleted.

but Senex, I don't think you're getting it.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

Last edited by bruto; 21st March 2019 at 09:38 PM.
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 11:28 PM   #55
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,942
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, what's your source that says their magic only works if you stay lawful good? Seems to me like, on the contrary, no such alignment requirement has ever been ever supported
#LawfulEvil
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st March 2019, 11:30 PM   #56
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 61,132
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Even if you assume the magic is in the priest, you still haven't shown that it depends on the priest's alignment. It's just your word that it should fail for someone, say, chaotic evil. So, you, know, support that it actually fails to work in that case
They got rid of alignment requirements in 5th edition.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 03:45 AM   #57
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,047
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Without knowing your definition of alignment or chaotic evil I will say that priests take a vow not to be evil. If they break the vow they aren't priests any longer. If the no longer priest did your service and I was a believer I'd hedge my bets and get it done again.
No they don't. The Rite Of Ordination only involves promising to diligently perform your priestly duties, stay celibate, and to respect and obey your superior. That's it. After that, the bishop ordinating you lays his hands on you and invokes the power of the Holy Spirit on you, and that was it. Now you too have the magic.

The ONLY binding part is what the bishop did to you -- you know, that prayer and laying on hands -- not what YOU said.

You know, kinda like getting bit in the neck by a vampire. If you survived, you are one, no matter if what you said was "I vow to obey the Masquerade" or "oi! <bleep> off!"

Now if you joined some very specific monastic orders, like the Dominicans, Benedictines, or Franciscans, you'll have to take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. That's ALL the vows you take.

But for all other priests, you don't even take a vow. You just have to PROMISE to the Bishop ordinating you two things: celibacy and obedience. Usually they'll ask you to promise to also do your duties, but even that's an optional extra, as far as doctrine goes, since it's essentially included in the promise to obey your superior anyway. That's it. And again they're not even really an oath. You just promise to the Bishop that you'll not marry and that you'll obey him. That's it. That's all.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 22nd March 2019 at 03:48 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 03:46 AM   #58
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,047
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They got rid of alignment requirements in 5th edition.
Dang. Which are the 5'th edition Catholics? The ones after Vatican 1?
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 03:57 AM   #59
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,835
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Dang. Which are the 5'th edition Catholics? The ones after Vatican 1?
I thought that was the one where they banned double reverse shunts on the Northern line (except through Warren Street, obviously).

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 12:05 PM   #60
epeeist
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 459
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
How about...

1. I needed surgery on my heart.
2. The cardiologist I used turned out to be a quack.
3. Perhaps my surgery didn't really take and needs to be done again by a real cardiologist.
An imperfect corrected analogy (imperfect including because of the moral or what should be moral qualities of a priest):

1. You needed surgery on your heart.
2. The cardiac surgeon who performed your surgery, while a proper surgeon, turned out to be a pedophile who had abused juvenile patients, and they've therefore been stripped of their license to practice medicine.
3. Your surgery, however, which occurred before these crimes were discovered, went fine. As did the surgery he performed on the patients who he had abused before and after - but not during (with the whole surgical team there) - surgery.
epeeist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 12:21 PM   #61
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
If you think I have problems with god you should hear my issues with the Easter Bunny.
I'll pass.

Quote:
Says you.
Says Catholic doctrine, actually.

Quote:
Rebuttals include such facts as priests are only the conduits of the magic. A premise without a difference. If these guys can go around willy-nilly blessing stuff they have the magic.
The rebuttals have been a lot more detailed and nuanced than that. You're still avoiding them.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 12:24 PM   #62
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
An imperfect corrected analogy (imperfect including because of the moral or what should be moral qualities of a priest):

1. You needed surgery on your heart.
2. The cardiac surgeon who performed your surgery, while a proper surgeon, turned out to be a pedophile who had abused juvenile patients, and they've therefore been stripped of their license to practice medicine.
3. Your surgery, however, which occurred before these crimes were discovered, went fine. As did the surgery he performed on the patients who he had abused before and after - but not during (with the whole surgical team there) - surgery.
I've got a way better analogy:

1. You seek absolution for your sins, from your God
2. Your God channels your absolution through a flawed human agent
3. Your absolution holds, because your God's magic isn't hindered by the flaws of his agents.

I feel like, over the course of this thread, Senex's argument has gone from ignorance of Catholic doctrine to willful ignorance of Catholic doctrine.

Last edited by theprestige; 22nd March 2019 at 12:25 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 12:25 PM   #63
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 18,200
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Without knowing your definition of alignment or chaotic evil I will say that priests take a vow not to be evil. If they break the vow they aren't priests any longer. If the no longer priest did your service and I was a believer I'd hedge my bets and get it done again.
I'm married. I made certain vows to my wife. If later this afternoon I break one of those vows will I no longer be married in time for dinner?
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 12:26 PM   #64
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I thought that was the one where they banned double reverse shunts on the Northern line (except through Warren Street, obviously).
Those are the Pathfinder Catholics.

Don't get me started on the 4th Edition Catholics. I feel so sorry for those guys.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 02:31 PM   #65
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,360
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those are the Pathfinder Catholics.



Don't get me started on the 4th Edition Catholics. I feel so sorry for those guys.
At least they get to eat the goat afterwards.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 02:37 PM   #66
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
At least they get to eat the goat afterwards.
Except that the goat is just a fake goat skin full of MMORPG tropes, and there is no afterwards.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 02:53 PM   #67
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,086
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know, according to Catholic doctrine, once you have taken the sacrament of priestly orders, nothing short of excommunication can make you not a priest any more.
No. In the RCC excommunication does not have to precede laicisation (technically dismissal from the clerical state) which (since the '09 revisions to the 1983 Code of Canon Law) isn't that difficult for the responsible bishop to implement (as far as cases within the competence of the Congregation for the Clergy anyway; sexual abuse of minors in the remit of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith).

Anyway the OP's point is irrelevant in terms of Canon Law and RCC doctrine; all
properly performed sacraments are valid whether or not the priest officiating is living in the proper 'situation of holiness'. An improper baptism on the other hand...
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 04:16 PM   #68
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

Anyway the OP's point is irrelevant in terms of Canon Law and RCC doctrine; all
properly performed sacraments are valid whether or not the priest officiating is living in the proper 'situation of holiness'. An improper baptism on the other hand...
Canon Law and RCC doctrine be darned. Common sense should tell you a scoundrel can't cleanse your sins on your deathbed. A man misusing authority in order to have sex with children is incapable of even "channeling" magic from a deity, unless this is a deity with such very low standards that no one should bother with anyway.

I've always had a distaste for crappy magicians.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 04:24 PM   #69
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I'm married. I made certain vows to my wife. If later this afternoon I break one of those vows will I no longer be married in time for dinner?
Your marriage vows didn't result in the ability to perform magic in the name of god. A believer in god should expect a higher standard of their god's magician than a typical husband.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 04:29 PM   #70
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
The next time you are up against a vampire I hope to god that holy water you use isn't blessed by a pedophile priest. That stuff won't work I tell you.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 05:40 PM   #71
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,724
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I've got a way better analogy:

1. You seek absolution for your sins, from your God
2. Your God channels your absolution through a flawed human agent
3. Your absolution holds, because your God's magic isn't hindered by the flaws of his agents.

I feel like, over the course of this thread, Senex's argument has gone from ignorance of Catholic doctrine to willful ignorance of Catholic doctrine.
I think that's really the problem, and it's a regrettable one in a venue where one hopes rationality and logic would prevail. I think there are plenty of good arguments that can be made for why the RC Church is wrong about all sorts of things, and plenty of good arguments for disavowing religion in general. We've heard many, probably made a few too, but this is not one of them. Since anyone, even an atheist with a little learning or a good book, can counter it with policy the Church has developed over centuries, it's a non-starter.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2019, 06:31 PM   #72
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,284
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Canon Law and RCC doctrine be darned. Common sense should tell you a scoundrel can't cleanse your sins on your deathbed. A man misusing authority in order to have sex with children is incapable of even "channeling" magic from a deity, unless this is a deity with such very low standards that no one should bother with anyway.

Common sense tells me that nobody can cleanse my sins on my deathbed. Common sense tells me that sin isn't even a real thing.

But common sense also tells me that Catholics can believe whatever they want. And, as I am not Catholic, I have no authority to tell them what to believe.

It's like if I told you that I have an invisible pink dragon living in my garage and you reply, "Idiot, there's no such thing as invisible dragons but if there were, they'd be green."

Why do you keep demanding that a group of people that you have nothing to do with interpret their own religion according to your rules?
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 05:39 AM   #73
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,170
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post

Why do you keep demanding that a group of people that you have nothing to do with interpret their own religion according to your rules?
And why keep demanding it of us? We're not even that group of people.

Senex, what are you expecting us to do with your argument? What were you hoping to get from this thread?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 06:10 AM   #74
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,676
You all have this backwards. The evil wizards have the strongest magic. Voldemort, Sauron, Morgan le Fey, Emperor Palpatine, Circe, Xykon, Xenu, Lo Pan, Maleficent, Imhotep, Gargamel... the list goes on. So if you want a good strong blessing you should look for the most depraved priest you can find.

The only drawback is when the evil priest dies, his evil cathedral is likely to suddenly collapse. When that happens you'll probably get all your sins back, kind of like in Ghostbusters when Walter Peck shut off the containment unit.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 08:14 AM   #75
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,234
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
You all have this backwards. The evil wizards have the strongest magic. Voldemort, Sauron, Morgan le Fey, Emperor Palpatine, Circe, Xykon, Xenu, Lo Pan, Maleficent, Imhotep, Gargamel... the list goes on. So if you want a good strong blessing you should look for the most depraved priest you can find.

The only drawback is when the evil priest dies, his evil cathedral is likely to suddenly collapse. When that happens you'll probably get all your sins back, kind of like in Ghostbusters when Walter Peck shut off the containment unit.
That is exactly wrong. In the case of the priesthood, the god implants a piece of itself into the priest's brain, and then the priest can channel the god's power to perform its will. If the priest dissatisfies the god, of course, it immediately explodes his head into a whirlwind of green fire and scorpions. In the case of Catholicism there are also saints, who are people who absorbed the god's cells and mutated rather than serving merely as hosts for it. Saints could even theoretically fight against the god using its own magic against it, but such cases are rare because of the efficiency of the Sinquisition, an elite corps of priestly murderninjas. You can read all about this in the Bible. It's the real Good News!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 06:53 PM   #76
Senex
Philosopher
 
Senex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: School for Rumpology, CT
Posts: 5,722
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think that's really the problem, and it's a regrettable one in a venue where one hopes rationality and logic would prevail. I think there are plenty of good arguments that can be made for why the RC Church is wrong about all sorts of things, and plenty of good arguments for disavowing religion in general. We've heard many, probably made a few too, but this is not one of them. Since anyone, even an atheist with a little learning or a good book, can counter it with policy the Church has developed over centuries, it's a non-starter.
It's a non-starter for whom? For wannabe papal lawyers? Not for someone looking at the spiritual aspect.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Common sense tells me that nobody can cleanse my sins on my deathbed. Common sense tells me that sin isn't even a real thing.

But common sense also tells me that Catholics can believe whatever they want. And, as I am not Catholic, I have no authority to tell them what to believe.

It's like if I told you that I have an invisible pink dragon living in my garage and you reply, "Idiot, there's no such thing as invisible dragons but if there were, they'd be green."

Why do you keep demanding that a group of people that you have nothing to do with interpret their own religion according to your rules?
Well I hope I fell short of demanding. This topic is genuine for me. I went to Catholic school. My mom is 85 and it's time I pick a magician.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And why keep demanding it of us? We're not even that group of people.

Senex, what are you expecting us to do with your argument? What were you hoping to get from this thread?
Support. Just a little support.

Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
You all have this backwards. The evil wizards have the strongest magic. Voldemort, Sauron, Morgan le Fey, Emperor Palpatine, Circe, Xykon, Xenu, Lo Pan, Maleficent, Imhotep, Gargamel... the list goes on. So if you want a good strong blessing you should look for the most depraved priest you can find.

The only drawback is when the evil priest dies, his evil cathedral is likely to suddenly collapse. When that happens you'll probably get all your sins back, kind of like in Ghostbusters when Walter Peck shut off the containment unit.
A fine example of justice.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That is exactly wrong. In the case of the priesthood, the god implants a piece of itself into the priest's brain, and then the priest can channel the god's power to perform its will. If the priest dissatisfies the god, of course, it immediately explodes his head into a whirlwind of green fire and scorpions. In the case of Catholicism there are also saints, who are people who absorbed the god's cells and mutated rather than serving merely as hosts for it. Saints could even theoretically fight against the god using its own magic against it, but such cases are rare because of the efficiency of the Sinquisition, an elite corps of priestly murderninjas. You can read all about this in the Bible. It's the real Good News!
I don't where to start with that.
Senex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 09:30 PM   #77
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,284
Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Well I hope I fell short of demanding. This topic is genuine for me. I went to Catholic school. My mom is 85 and it's time I pick a magician.

Then pick whoever the hell you want.


Quote:
Support. Just a little support.

I support your right to pick whoever the hell you want.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 10:56 PM   #78
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,724
If your mother is 85 and a devout Catholic, and you're doing it for her, why not just adhere to Church doctrine? I can see trying, for various reasons, to find a priest who is not corrupt and sinful, if for no other reason than to satisfy your own moral preferences, but it seems the only argument for worrying about this retroactively would be if you actually believe that the magic is real, but that the Church has gotten it wrong.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 02:11 AM   #79
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,047
I say pick the old Norse religion then. Human sacrifice is underrated
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 05:39 PM   #80
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 61,132
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Then pick whoever the hell you want.
I suggest you don't pick a paedophile.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.