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Old 25th March 2019, 07:39 PM   #81
Senex
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My mother hasn't entered a Catholic Church unless under the duress of a wedding, funeral, or other requirement since I was old enough to be aware. Recently I asked her about what she wanted as a send off. She said a Catholic Church Mass

It made me think of these people again. You really have to go hat in hand to get a Catholic Church service if you haven't been active in the church for sixty plus years.

Fortunately I discussed the issues at length with her and she agreed my dad's Congregational Church was more appropriate where the woo is lower key.
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Old 26th March 2019, 09:57 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
My mother hasn't entered a Catholic Church unless under the duress of a wedding, funeral, or other requirement since I was old enough to be aware. Recently I asked her about what she wanted as a send off. She said a Catholic Church Mass

It made me think of these people again. You really have to go hat in hand to get a Catholic Church service if you haven't been active in the church for sixty plus years.

Fortunately I discussed the issues at length with her and she agreed my dad's Congregational Church was more appropriate where the woo is lower key.
Some of my lapsed Catholic relations had problems getting services, too. Turns out all that was needed was a bribe. Pregnant cousin marrying a Protestant? Church funeral for a nonpracticing great uncle? Baptize a baby whose parents don't go to church? Cash fixed all. But put it in an envelope before you hand it over, it's tacky to hand over open cash when bribing.
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:29 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Your marriage vows didn't result in the ability to perform magic in the name of god. A believer in god should expect a higher standard of their god's magician than a typical husband.
You may want to check with my wife about that.

Originally Posted by Senex View Post
The next time you are up against a vampire I hope to god that holy water you use isn't blessed by a pedophile priest. That stuff won't work I tell you.
What if it is a very young vampire?
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:30 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
My mother hasn't entered a Catholic Church unless under the duress of a wedding, funeral, or other requirement since I was old enough to be aware. Recently I asked her about what she wanted as a send off. She said a Catholic Church Mass

It made me think of these people again. You really have to go hat in hand to get a Catholic Church service if you haven't been active in the church for sixty plus years.

Fortunately I discussed the issues at length with her and she agreed my dad's Congregational Church was more appropriate where the woo is lower key.
It looks like that may cause you less stress. Good solution.
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Old 26th March 2019, 02:48 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Some of my lapsed Catholic relations had problems getting services, too. Turns out all that was needed was a bribe. Pregnant cousin marrying a Protestant? Church funeral for a nonpracticing great uncle? Baptize a baby whose parents don't go to church? Cash fixed all. But put it in an envelope before you hand it over, it's tacky to hand over open cash when bribing.
It may be tacky to hand it over openly but apparently (family members' issues in both Mexico and Connecticut) it's not that tacky to ask for it outright.
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:29 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It may be tacky to hand it over openly but apparently (family members' issues in both Mexico and Connecticut) it's not that tacky to ask for it outright.
I pretty much stopped expecting anything good from the church after the time a priest said a flirty thing to me when I was twelve. That's as far as it went, a creepy remark, but it was quite enough to put me off organized religion.
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Old 26th March 2019, 06:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Turns out all that was needed was a bribe.
Ahem. "Donation".
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Old 27th March 2019, 09:14 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But the two are intimately related. The answer to your question is yes, a paedophile priest still has the power to perform sacraments including the Eucharist, Marriage, Baptism, Confession and the Last Rites.

Unless they are excommunicated. Which is one really good reason to press for the excommunication of convicted paedophiles.
Look raping kids is just never going to be a big deal to catholics, certainly nothing like permitting an abortion to save a womans worthless life! That is sure to send you straight to hell.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...ryId=126985072

So compared to that having sex with kids is a total non issue. You have to get the proper view of what is serious vs what is trivial to catholics.
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Old 27th March 2019, 09:19 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As far as I know, and I'm not an expert, you can be stood down as a priest and directed to not perform priestly duties, but that doesn't make you not a priest. You can be "refrocked" at any time if your bishop, cardinal or pope wants to. Excommunication is permanent.
Unless it causes bad press, see Margaret McBride. Suddenly saving some sluts life was no longer damning her to hell after 2 years.

God is weird.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excomm...rgaret_McBride
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:24 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
An imperfect corrected analogy (imperfect including because of the moral or what should be moral qualities of a priest):

1. You needed surgery on your heart.
2. The cardiac surgeon who performed your surgery, while a proper surgeon, turned out to be a pedophile who had abused juvenile patients, and they've therefore been stripped of their license to practice medicine.
3. Your surgery, however, which occurred before these crimes were discovered, went fine. As did the surgery he performed on the patients who he had abused before and after - but not during (with the whole surgical team there) - surgery.
Priestly' performances, unlike cardiologist's, requires ethical personal behavior and discipline. People see a priest because they believe the guy is moral. People see a cardiologist because their non-spiritual heart needs fixing.

It is ridiculous to believe a deity let's an immoral person be their middleman.
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Old 27th March 2019, 03:14 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Thanks, but where's your footnotes that this came down from the big guy himself? Twelve years of parochial education and I never read this. I have a good memory.



It's possible spiritual atonement can be reached, but not through these rascals.


Being ordained a priest is akin to being granted a degree. Itís the Churchís stamp of approval that you have been educated in their particular dogma and that you will execute the rituals properly.

The magic is all done by God, as was made clear in the Bible when Jesus instructed his apostles. The priests have no magic.

It is understood that priests are humans and thus, sinners. The sins they carry have no bearing on Godís ability to perform the magic through the priest.
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Old 27th March 2019, 07:00 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Priestly' performances, unlike cardiologist's, requires ethical personal behavior and discipline. People see a priest because they believe the guy is moral. People see a cardiologist because their non-spiritual heart needs fixing.

It is ridiculous to believe a deity let's an immoral person be their middleman.
It's ridiculous to say a king beats a queen in poker, but if you don't like the rule don't play poker.
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Old 28th March 2019, 03:50 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Being ordained a priest is akin to being granted a degree. Itís the Churchís stamp of approval that you have been educated in their particular dogma and that you will execute the rituals properly.

The magic is all done by God, as was made clear in the Bible when Jesus instructed his apostles. The priests have no magic.

It is understood that priests are humans and thus, sinners. The sins they carry have no bearing on Godís ability to perform the magic through the priest.
If only god can perform magic and no magic was given out in priest magic school and it's akin to receiving a degree then anyone taught the mumbo-jumbo incantations can conjure up the power of god if instructed by someone with a degree or was taught by someone in the know. I can have a degree in civil engineering and design bridges, but I can also train my apprentice to build fine bridges who doesn't have a degree.

If priests have no magic they are only incantation speakers. They better guard their book of shadows well because if that recipe gets out on the internet that water into wine spell will doom the liquor industry.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:30 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
If only god can perform magic and no magic was given out in priest magic school and it's akin to receiving a degree then anyone taught the mumbo-jumbo incantations can conjure up the power of god if instructed by someone with a degree or was taught by someone in the know. I can have a degree in civil engineering and design bridges, but I can also train my apprentice to build fine bridges who doesn't have a degree.

If priests have no magic they are only incantation speakers. They better guard their book of shadows well because if that recipe gets out on the internet that water into wine spell will doom the liquor industry.

There's no water into wine spell in the liturgy.

There is a water into holy water spell, and yeah, you can find the recipe on the Internet. So if you want to, you can test your unlicensed home-brew against the branded product and see if it's equally effective against a demon or vampire. Please let us know the results!
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:06 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
If only god can perform magic and no magic was given out in priest magic school and it's akin to receiving a degree then anyone taught the mumbo-jumbo incantations can conjure up the power of god if instructed by someone with a degree or was taught by someone in the know. I can have a degree in civil engineering and design bridges, but I can also train my apprentice to build fine bridges who doesn't have a degree.

If priests have no magic they are only incantation speakers. They better guard their book of shadows well because if that recipe gets out on the internet that water into wine spell will doom the liquor industry.
Once again, whatever common sense you may be applying, you're missing a point. According to Catholic doctrine (and this is why some protestant churches are conspicuously named "Congregational") the institution of the Church itself is a holy being, and necessary to transactions, both involving the hierarchy and qualification of priesthood and the individual's relation to God. Roman Catholicism is a "creedal" religion, and it's in the creed. What you're saying might be true if you're Baptist or a Quaker, but not if you're a Roman Catholic.

There are books you could read that might help explain this.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:42 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It's ridiculous to say a king beats a queen in poker, but if you don't like the rule don't play poker.
Actually, that makes sense to me. When you need the two of clubs in the negotiation is what I don't understand.

Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
There's no water into wine spell in the liturgy.

There is a water into holy water spell, and yeah, you can find the recipe on the Internet. So if you want to, you can test your unlicensed home-brew against the branded product and see if it's equally effective against a demon or vampire. Please let us know the results!
I am already armed with the results... (drum roll)....

None of that crap ever slowed me down!

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Once again, whatever common sense you may be applying, you're missing a point. According to Catholic doctrine (and this is why some protestant churches are conspicuously named "Congregational") the institution of the Church itself is a holy being, and necessary to transactions, both involving the hierarchy and qualification of priesthood and the individual's relation to God. Roman Catholicism is a "creedal" religion, and it's in the creed. What you're saying might be true if you're Baptist or a Quaker, but not if you're a Roman Catholic.

There are books you could read that might help explain this.
Here is a true story. While being a Roman Catholic enrolled as a seventh grader in parochial Catholic school I became a church commentator at Catholic Masses minimally 3 out of 4 weeks for almost two years. I got the job literally on a bet but I also thought it was a good experience to read in front of a large crowd and although I was an atheist even back then I felt it padded the resume.

Just a few weeks into my 7th grade Sunday job the church decided to make everyone on the alter have to walk down into the crowd and shake all the congregants hands at the end of aisles as a sign of peace. To my twelve year old mind this was a complete change in skill sets. Standing behind a podium and reading from a text I (really) prepared to read (I was good) is a different skill set than going down the aisle of the huge (and back then) fairly well attended Catholic church and shaking everyone's hand. Today the sign of peace is a part of a Catholic service that everyone is used to. I was there on the day of inception and some people felt the handshake intrusive or were surprised. My first day I was very uncomfortable and as I was going down the right side of the isle there were a couple of empty rows so I just turned to the other side and came back. The very next week the head priest said he knew what I did (someone must have ratted me out) that I didn't go to the back row and he said I will today. I told him I had an issue with it. He tried to use priest mojo on me. We both realized his mojo didn't work but I realized I would lose my job if I didn't do what the priest needed me to do so I did what was expected and shook hundreds of strangers hands. Ironically, I discovered I was gifted at shaking strangers hands. No bulloney, the audience cottoned to it after a couple of weeks and the number of people that went out of there way to shake my hand helped my self esteem. No doubt some people felt I was closer to god because I spoke from the alter.



My point is other people grew up like me. I'm concerned they should have more concerns than they do.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:54 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What if it is a very young vampire?
Pfft. If Hellsing taught me anything, it's that what you need is another very young vampire... armed with a 30mm cannon used as a sniper rifle. What? It was a documentary, right?
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:02 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Pfft. If Hellsing taught me anything, it's that what you need is another very young vampire... armed with a 30mm cannon used as a sniper rifle. What? It was a documentary, right?
Pfft. Hellsing teaches us that young vampires are next to useless. What's important is a mortal with an iron will, unswerving devotion to the Crown, loyal henchmen of elite quality, and ************* Dracula Himself in her back pocket.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:36 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
If only god can perform magic and no magic was given out in priest magic school and it's akin to receiving a degree then anyone taught the mumbo-jumbo incantations can conjure up the power of god if instructed by someone with a degree or was taught by someone in the know. I can have a degree in civil engineering and design bridges, but I can also train my apprentice to build fine bridges who doesn't have a degree.



If priests have no magic they are only incantation speakers. They better guard their book of shadows well because if that recipe gets out on the internet that water into wine spell will doom the liquor industry.


You are equating things that are not equal. You are attempting to impose rationality on the irrational.

In order to make sense of the dogma surrounding Catholic priesthood, you must understand certain doctrines: principally, apostolic succession and the sacrament of the laying on of hands.

So no, itís not the prayers themselves. Itís not magic in the priest. Itís the fact that an apostle of Jesus, which is exactly what priests are in the Catholic Church , is asking/invoking/whatever God to perform the magic.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:40 PM   #100
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Here's the thing.

God can create a rock so big that He can't lift it.

Also, He can lift that rock.

Thus founders Senex's argument.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:55 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Pfft. Hellsing teaches us that young vampires are next to useless. What's important is a mortal with an iron will, unswerving devotion to the Crown, loyal henchmen of elite quality, and ************* Dracula Himself in her back pocket.
That too, indeed.
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:01 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You are equating things that are not equal. You are attempting to impose rationality on the irrational.

In order to make sense of the dogma surrounding Catholic priesthood, you must understand certain doctrines: principally, apostolic succession and the sacrament of the laying on of hands.

So no, itís not the prayers themselves. Itís not magic in the priest. Itís the fact that an apostle of Jesus, which is exactly what priests are in the Catholic Church , is asking/invoking/whatever God to perform the magic.
And basically this is what leaves me scratching my head at Senex's argument, really.

Since the priest is officially just an intermediary in God's employ, why would it even matter what their personal morality is, for the purpose of getting a service done through them? Does anyone have to send their tax forms from two years ago again, just because the postman was arrested for kiddie porn? Nope. Even in the heart surgeon analogy, the priest is more like the receptionist who sends you to the actual doctor. Would I have to have the surgery done all over again because the receptionist was selling morphine to the mob? Or WTH?

As long as they were employed in the relevant position at the time, that's that. Even if they're fired later, it's irrelevant.
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:40 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Here's the thing.

God can create a rock so big that He can't lift it.

Also, He can lift that rock.
It's a trick, the rock is pumice! Sneaky Jehovah!
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Old 29th March 2019, 06:46 AM   #104
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And remember: Judas was an Apostle too. He frickiní betrayed Jesus -the OG priest, Son/Lamb of God, 1/3 God! Judasí acts as an Apostle were not nullified.
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Old 29th March 2019, 07:53 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's a trick, the rock is pumice! Sneaky Jehovah!
What's heavier? A pound of pumice or a pound of lead?
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:20 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's heavier? A pound of pumice or a pound of lead?
Depends on the UK exchange rate at time of purchase of both items.
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:22 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Depends on the UK exchange rate at time of purchase of both items.
Not really, no.
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:29 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not really, no.
Really? Does a 1973 pound's worth of lead weigh the same as a 2019 pound's worth of lead? What about 1929, 1880, 1604? Inflation alone will cause a huge difference in how much you can buy in each year.
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:35 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Really? Does a 1973 pound's worth of lead weigh the same as a 2019 pound's worth of lead? What about 1929, 1880, 1604? Inflation alone will cause a huge difference in how much you can buy in each year.
Huh.

I've long hypothesized that a good comedian could make an entire set out of the premise of explaining bad jokes. The comedy would be in the explanations themselves.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:07 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh.

I've long hypothesized that a good comedian could make an entire set out of the premise of explaining bad jokes. The comedy would be in the explanations themselves.
The ventriloquist in Marvelous Mrs Mazel comes pretty close to that and it is my favorite part of the first season. So damn funny. I prayed to Jesus it would never end, but since I was a faulty vessel for those prayers they went unanswered. See, not off topic at all, really.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:13 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Canon Law and RCC doctrine be darned. Common sense should tell you a scoundrel can't cleanse your sins on your deathbed.
What has common sense to do with religious delusions?

However those are the rules of the club.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:14 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
You all have this backwards. The evil wizards have the strongest magic. Voldemort, Sauron, Morgan le Fey, Emperor Palpatine, Circe, Xykon, Xenu, Lo Pan, Maleficent, Imhotep, Gargamel... the list goes on. So if you want a good strong blessing you should look for the most depraved priest you can find.
However they're poor at building lasting organisations.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:17 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Priestly' performances, unlike cardiologist's, requires ethical personal behavior and discipline.
The Code of Canon Law differs with you.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:18 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Being ordained a priest is akin to being granted a degree. Itís the Churchís stamp of approval that you have been educated in their particular dogma and that you will execute the rituals properly.

The magic is all done by God, as was made clear in the Bible when Jesus instructed his apostles. The priests have no magic.

It is understood that priests are humans and thus, sinners. The sins they carry have no bearing on Godís ability to perform the magic through the priest.
Again, no this is not RCC doctrine. Try harder,
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:41 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
However they're poor at building lasting organisations.
The key to effective evil is to not openly admit. Build a skull-shaped fortress and dress in all black and of course people will oppose you. Build a lovely temple and preach love and forgiveness and you've got yourself a stew!
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Old 29th March 2019, 11:32 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
Canon Law and RCC doctrine be darned. Common sense should tell you a scoundrel can't cleanse your sins on your deathbed. A man misusing authority in order to have sex with children is incapable of even "channeling" magic from a deity, unless this is a deity with such very low standards that no one should bother with anyway.

I've always had a distaste for crappy magicians.
I think we've found the stripped gear in the mechanism. Some of us, at least, might propose that "common sense" is not what this or any other religion is about, and without a sectarian preload, it should tell you that <fill in blank> can't cleanse your sins on your deathbed. By most definitions of common sense, the character of the priest has little relevance (except, of course, to his victims).
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Old 29th March 2019, 11:37 AM   #117
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When even other atheists aren't on board with your ridicule of theism, that should be a wake up call for you.
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Old 29th March 2019, 12:11 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Again, no this is not RCC doctrine. Try harder,


No, itís a simplified version that makes its point.
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Old 29th March 2019, 12:18 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No, itís a simplified version that makes its point.


Just to add...This is exactly the effect of the official doctrine. Priests are spiritual descendants of the apostles and this connection is passed down by the laying on of hands at their ordination.

Whatís wrong with likening it to a degree? That is pretty much the practical effect -they go through seminary, become sub-deacons, transitional deacons and finally are ordained priests.
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Old 29th March 2019, 12:24 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The key to effective evil is to not openly admit. Build a skull-shaped fortress and dress in all black and of course people will oppose you. Build a lovely temple and preach love and forgiveness and you've got yourself a stew!
Indeed. I'm reminded of Anderson's "Johannine Church".


Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No, itís a simplified version that makes its point.
No it isn't. Your "simplified version" contradicts RCC doctrine and Canon Law.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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