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Old 27th December 2017, 08:05 AM   #321
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's interesting how many people initially assumed that Shaver was black, simply because he was shot by a cop.
Just a quick fact: of the 964 so far this year fatally shot by police, "only" 220 of them were black. Non-hispanic whites made up 453. A much lower rate but still over 10x of any other economically developed country that I could find figures on.
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Old 27th December 2017, 09:36 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Or the cop was black?
That one has somewhat been put to the test in the Justine Damond case (her killer, Mohamed Noor, has not been charged as far as I can tell) - but keep in mind that three of the six cops involved in Freddie Grey's death were black, and all beat the charges against them by using arguments such as "You can't prove that I read the email instructing us to strap people into the back of our vans.", which I see as basically admitting that they were incompetent and negligent, and somehow escaping even manslaughter charges based on that.

Not that I'd argue that Bmore police aren't wildly incompetent and corrupt, mind you...

Last edited by Mumbles; 27th December 2017 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 28th December 2017, 01:45 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Just a quick fact: of the 964 so far this year fatally shot by police, "only" 220 of them were black. Non-hispanic whites made up 453. A much lower rate but still over 10x of any other economically developed country that I could find figures on.
Isn't that number known to be low, though? How do we do good statistics when we don't have accurate reporting to begin with? We don't actually know how many people were shot by police so we also don't know if there is a race based reporting bias, for instance.
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Old 28th December 2017, 04:12 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Just a quick fact: of the 964 so far this year fatally shot by police *snip*
Nine hundred and sixty four. Holy. ***********. ****.
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Old 28th December 2017, 07:02 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Isn't that number known to be low, though? How do we do good statistics when we don't have accurate reporting to begin with? We don't actually know how many people were shot by police so we also don't know if there is a race based reporting bias, for instance.
The Washington Post has been reporting extensively about this. The problem is that there is no central authority counting police killings the way the FBI compiles crime statistics. Local police forces aren't required to report shootings, let alone killings, to anybody. And the cops will do whatever they can to avoid responsibility.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7a63bb072acb
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polic...=.a52ce434eb1c
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/
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Old 28th December 2017, 09:00 AM   #326
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Isn't that number known to be low, though? How do we do good statistics when we don't have accurate reporting to begin with? We don't actually know how many people were shot by police so we also don't know if there is a race based reporting bias, for instance.
Yes we don't truly know. WaPo is just collating data from local media. Its possible that some shootings are unreported. I personally doubt its very many. 964 is probably correct within 10% or so.
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Old 28th December 2017, 06:15 PM   #327
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yes we don't truly know. WaPo is just collating data from local media. Its possible that some shootings are unreported. I personally doubt its very many. 964 is probably correct within 10% or so.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...udy?CMP=twt_gu
Quote:
Over half of all police killings in 2015 were wrongly classified as not having been the result of interactions with officers, a new Harvard study based on Guardian data has found.

The finding is just the latest to show government databases seriously undercounting the number of people killed by police.

“Right now the data quality is bad and unacceptable,” said lead researcher Justin Feldman. “To effectively address the problem of law enforcement-related deaths, the public needs better data about who is being killed, where, and under what circumstances.”

Feldman used data from the Guardian’s 2015 investigation into police killings, The Counted, and compared it with data from the National Vital Statistics System (NVSS). That dataset, which is kept by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), was found to have misclassified 55.2% of all police killings, with the errors occurring disproportionately in low-income jurisdictions.
50% is much greater than 10%, and as I suspected the problem occurs disproportionately in low-income jurisdictions.

ETA: Hold on, it looks like maybe you are getting the number 964 from the media source, not from the official count. In that case yes I think you are probably right that it's likely to be accurate to within 10% or so. Sorry for misunderstanding.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 28th December 2017 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 28th December 2017, 08:54 PM   #328
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Washington Post and The Guardian databases get information from multiple sources

Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Isn't that number known to be low, though? How do we do good statistics when we don't have accurate reporting to begin with? We don't actually know how many people were shot by police so we also don't know if there is a race based reporting bias, for instance.
Yes we don't truly know. WaPo is just collating data from local media. Its possible that some shootings are unreported. I personally doubt its very many. 964 is probably correct withinhttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ent-data-count 10% or so.

The databases produced by the Washington Post, and The Guardian, get their data from multiple sources–not just the media. Law enforcement, activists, journalists, and citizens–pretty much any person or agency–can supply information.

The Washington Post and Guardian database websites have a clickable link to submit a tip.

Tom McCarthy, a national affairs reporter for the Guardian US, wrote some detailed articles that explain the difficulties counting people killed by police.
The uncounted: why the US can't keep track of people killed by police and Part Two: The counted – inside the search for the real number of police killings in the US

In part two, Tom wrote, "Citizen activists keep the best national counts. But there are corners of the country where the police track use-of-force more closely than any outside activist could. For example if an officer intentionally fires a gun in Montgomery County, Maryland – even if no one is hit or hurt – the police department posts a detailed description of the circumstances on its home page, usually within 24 hours. It is policy."

Not all police departments are as transparent as Montgomery County, Maryland.
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Old 28th December 2017, 11:07 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...udy?CMP=twt_gu
.....
ETA: Hold on, it looks like maybe you are getting the number 964 from the media source, not from the official count. In that case yes I think you are probably right that it's likely to be accurate to within 10% or so. Sorry for misunderstanding.
I just note that there is no official count. That's the core problem.
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Old 28th December 2017, 11:13 PM   #330
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I just note that there is no official count. That's the core problem.
Yes, you are right.

As I understand it there are some official counts scattered among various jurisdictions, and if you add them all up they underreport by a factor of 2 or so.

Is that accurate?
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Old 29th December 2017, 01:42 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yes, you are right.

As I understand it there are some official counts scattered among various jurisdictions, and if you add them all up they underreport by a factor of 2 or so.

Is that accurate?
No one knows for sure. That's the key point of the Post's (and others') reporting: No one knows.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:56 AM   #332
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Another trigger happy cop:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/cri...192111974.html

The police obviously didn't match the information in the 911-call to actual reality

Quote:
- Is it a one-story or two-story house?
- One-story
http://www.kansas.com/news/local/cri...192244734.html

I bet the officer that fired the shot was totally scared for his life. Totally.
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:14 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Another trigger happy cop:

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/cri...192111974.html

The police obviously didn't match the information in the 911-call to actual reality



http://www.kansas.com/news/local/cri...192244734.html

I bet the officer that fired the shot was totally scared for his life. Totally.
This story was discussed here before. I would put at least as much of the blame on the prank caller who told the police:

- his Dad was shot in the head.
- he was holding his family hostage in a closet at gunpoint.
- had soaked the house with gas and may ignite it
- was feeling anxious and would not put the gun away (when asked by dispatch)

These "SWATting" calls happen several hundred times a year and can turn out very bad. These calls are deliberately intended to draw large amounts of police to an innocent targets home.

I just thought a little context was in order. Not saying it was a good shoot but there were extenuating circumstances.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:02 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This story was discussed here before. I would put at least as much of the blame on the prank caller who told the police:

This is where the flaw in your logic begins.

There is no "the blame". There isn't one bundle of blame to be divvied up like an apple pie at a picnic.

Different people were at fault for different things. Any apparent connection between them is a distraction from properly analyzing what went wrong.

Quote:

- his Dad was shot in the head.
- he was holding his family hostage in a closet at gunpoint.
- had soaked the house with gas and may ignite it
- was feeling anxious and would not put the gun away (when asked by dispatch)

These "SWATting" calls happen several hundred times a year and can turn out very bad. These calls are deliberately intended to draw large amounts of police to an innocent targets home.

I just thought a little context was in order. Not saying it was a good shoot but there were extenuating circumstances.

It didn't have to be some gamer pulling a SWAT spoof. It could have just as easily have been a real situation with the cops going to 696 instead of 969, or the dispatcher sending them to Blah Blah Street instead of Blah Blah Road. (These examples have happened also, just maybe without the fatal outcome.)

Here in Durham we have a Chapel Hill Street which passes within a block of Chapel Hill Rd., which in turn crosses over top of Chapel Hill Blvd. on its way to dead ending into Old Chapel Hill Rd. After a few miles on Old Chapel Hill Rd. it becomes Old Durham Rd.

Think of the opportunities for misdirection that presents.

How much fault would a dispatcher have if they misspoke, or a cop if they misheard over a scratchy, semi-garbled two-way radio connection?

The blame for the death lies with the officers who responded, because of the way they responded. How they got there by misdirection or mistake is an entirely different, only barely related (if at all) discussion.
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Old 15th February 2018, 04:24 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is where the flaw in your logic begins.

There is no "the blame". There isn't one bundle of blame to be divvied up like an apple pie at a picnic.
Sometimes, other times it is like with illegal and criminal orders in the military, like the torture programs of the Bush years. Then suddenly it becomes wrong to hold the people who did the actual torture accountable for only following orders.
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:24 PM   #336
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A friend of mine died in Brighton because the ambulance went to Cleveland Court instead of Cliveden Court. He was choking.
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