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4th June 2019, 05:12 AM | #2481 |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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4th June 2019, 05:19 AM | #2482 |
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That all of these supposedly sovereign nations were built by conquest of smaller nations. Sometimes these stick like say Holland and Germany, and other times they do not like Czechoslovakia. As a long political process of unification this is fundamentally different from previous building of nations.
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4th June 2019, 05:21 AM | #2483 |
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That's exactly what EU has been doing for over half a century now. I suspect it will take at least another century to become a proper, unified, functioning state. It could go quicker, but the wreckers are everywhere. If we manage to achieve a fiscal union in the next couple of decades I'll be happy.
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There is no law of physics that is to be broken if several countries unify into one, peacefully or otherwise. If you want the union to be democratic you need it to be joined peacefully sure. But this is doable and was done in the past. EU is trying something new, it is trying to join up a conglomerate of several nation-states whose history turned the world upside down, many of whom have more pride than common sense. This makes the progress difficult. So? We don't do it because it's easy. We do it because it's better that way. The vision of divided Europe, with tall border walls and animosity between nations is a vision of Europe dominated by competing interests of USA, China, Russia and possibly India. The vision offers nothing a European would like. The alternative is a unified Europe, which horrifies, just horrifies those that wish it ill for their own selfish self-interest. I fail to see why keeping their interests above those of all others would be a good thing for an European or Europe. If one of the naysayers can explain, I'd be grateful McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 09:06 AM | #2484 |
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4th June 2019, 11:39 AM | #2485 |
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4th June 2019, 11:54 AM | #2486 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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4th June 2019, 12:47 PM | #2487 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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4th June 2019, 12:48 PM | #2488 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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4th June 2019, 02:00 PM | #2489 |
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Nigel Farage says he will not attend a committee investigating whether he broke European Parliament rules by accepting funding from Leave campaigner Arron Banks.
The Brexit Party leader has said he did not declare the £450,000 sum to the assembly because at the time, he was about to leave politics and had been seeking a new life in the US. He said he had only been given 24 hours' notice to attend a meeting of the committee on Wednesday, which he branded a "kangaroo court". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48516348 Arron Banks has said he had "willingly helped Farage and was honoured to do so", adding: "This was all designed to help Nigel get out of politics." So it would seem Farage stiffed Banks for a lot of cash. |
4th June 2019, 02:39 PM | #2490 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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4th June 2019, 09:00 PM | #2491 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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4th June 2019, 10:36 PM | #2492 |
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Have you checked the European election results recently?
Over 72% of the seats went to parties who agree Europe should become a proper state someday down the line. Not too soon, but not in the unfantomably different future either - a 2-5 decades or so, other questions depending. 72% is not a definition of "nobody" I'm familiar with. McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 10:41 PM | #2493 |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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4th June 2019, 11:36 PM | #2494 |
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The EU is a collection of independent sovereign countries. It would not be the EU converting them rather them choosing to convert themselves. I know you don't have any evidence that those countries want to cede their sovereignty in the way that US states have. It is yet another brexiteer lie. A bit like you one you made about not posting again in this thread.
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4th June 2019, 11:37 PM | #2495 |
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Not quite - 28% of the seats went to parties which identify as Eurosceptic and either want the EU to be disbanded altogether (ENF, EFDD) or rolled back considerably (ECR). I'm not sure where one would put the GUE/NGL on that continuum, probably on the rolling back side of things.
Assuming that the rest want a European super-state is the exclusion of a pretty large middle comprising keeping the same level of integration and cooperation or increasing the level of integration but stopping (far) short of a European super-state. The UK Labour Party is a member of the S&D grouping and as their Brexit position shows, they have little appetite for a European super-state. The LibDems are a member of the ALDE grouping and are possibly the most Europhile UK party and don't want a Euro superstate.. |
5th June 2019, 12:28 AM | #2496 |
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ALDE+EPP+S&D+Green/EFA have 68% of the total. All four groups are pro-union. That's a 2/3 supermajority and includes the results in UK. If you cut out the softest supporters (Greens) you still have 62% support for an ever closer union. This is just the result of the largest three parties who all support further integration, which has support beyond those three.
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With further integration and another generation however that becomes the obvious end result I reckon between 20 and 50 years from now. Unless something Bad happens EU will have us think what is the distinction between a union of soverign states and a soverign federal state within a decade or two. I'm sure we'll find that border is fuzzy and can't be determined to any great precision. No, I do not envision the United States of Europe being declared anytime soon if that's what you're asking. Instead what will happen is further integration in small steps and occasional larger ones (fiscal union), each of whom will stop far short of declaring a superstate. After a while and looking back you won't be able to tell at which point did the EU become a superstate. It's evolution all over again. You're the same species as your parents and your parents are the same species as their grandparents ... do this long enough and you find your great-great-...-great grandfather was a fish and so was his mate. The plan is to do the same with EU.
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McHrozni |
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5th June 2019, 12:54 AM | #2497 |
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Ceding soverignty is a misnomer, it implies you lose something. The said countries transfer a portion of their soverignty to European institutions yes, but those institutions are every bit as much theirs as their home country was. You're just a part of a larger group of people, with all the ups and downs this brings.
The voter doesn't lose any soverignty at all. The power of national politicians decrease, but the politicians being soverign has gone out of fashion in the 1790s. McHrozni |
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5th June 2019, 12:59 AM | #2498 |
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5th June 2019, 02:19 AM | #2499 |
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All the former Yugoslavian ones, so I make that 5(?).
(Haven't looked at a map to count them) "This committee would better spend its time investigating the waste of public money by well-known MEPs," (Farage) added. I assume he was taking the mick with that line? How much has he cost the public as an MEP that never bothers to turn up? |
5th June 2019, 03:09 AM | #2500 |
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Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia is six, Kosovo would be the seventh, if it's a country. However Yugoslavia was one party socialist dictatorship, not a democracy. The country fell apart and some pieces implemented democracy to go alongside independence, unambigiously discounting all but one. Montenegro is indeed a "maybe", if you count Serbia and Montenegro in 2006 to be democratic, or one country. Both are in the grey zone and it can be argued both are false.
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5th June 2019, 03:15 AM | #2501 |
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Actually it kinda is. EU right now is in a manifestly unstable state, it has to move somewhere on fiscal union and immigration, first and foremost. There are two ways this can be achieved, either further integration or rolling it back. Not wanting to roll it back leaves you with exactly one option.
Plus most of ALDE, EPP and S&D explicitly supports further integration, just not in what order, which areas to prioritize or which mechanisms to use.
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As time passes by it will become clear further integration is the proper way to go and it will happen, even if the current crop of politicians doesn't see it like that yet. They want further integration and that makes an eventual superstate inevitable. I see it as a good thing. McHrozni |
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5th June 2019, 03:39 AM | #2502 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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5th June 2019, 04:37 AM | #2503 |
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5th June 2019, 04:39 AM | #2504 |
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Ooh, got one.
Czechoslovakia! They were a fairly functional democracy for 3 years... So that would be 2! |
5th June 2019, 05:09 AM | #2505 |
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5th June 2019, 05:17 AM | #2506 |
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Two maybes, yeah. It depends on a definition of a functional democracy a bit (WP: Members of Czechoslovakia's parliament, divided along national lines, barely cooperated enough to pass the law officially separating the two nations in late 1992) and whether or not you consider the context behind that divorce. Slovaks had been a tad of a second class citizens for decades in the dictatorial Czechoslovakia (and prior), which contributed to their wishes of an independent state when they got democracy.
So yeah, the number in fact may not be zero. Indeed, it could be as high as two. McHrozni |
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5th June 2019, 10:06 AM | #2507 |
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Sir Edward Leigh MP Tweets
I am disappointed by the lack of radical ideas coming out of this leadership race. Here’s my programme for the new government: There are only two choices given the EU won’t change the deal and there’s no chance of Parliament passing it. One is cancel Brexit: an intolerable denial of democracy. The other is leave without a deal on WTO terms on 31 October. But MPs, assisted by the Speaker, will block this. Solution: End this failed session immediately within hours of a new government and prorogue Parliament. Leave the EU on 31 October. If we don’t, we are betraying our supporters and ensuring a total wipe-out of the Conservative party. |
5th June 2019, 10:07 AM | #2508 |
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I like how he thinks stopping Brexit is an "intolerable denial of democracy"
But that "within hours of a new government" scrapping Parliament is the democratic thing to do. |
5th June 2019, 10:12 AM | #2509 |
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Well, I suspect he thinks the 74 grand a year he receives from being Non-Executive Director of Europe Arab Bank is safe from the consequences of his chosen course of action. (https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2016/03/...h-second-jobs/) |
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Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
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5th June 2019, 10:13 AM | #2510 |
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5th June 2019, 10:47 AM | #2511 |
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Now we know where the 350 million a week for the NHS will go. To america!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...eQPYYy4eodMguQ "Donald Trump has declared he wants the NHS to be on the table in any US-UK trade deal and refused to meet the “negative” Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who pledged to oppose US corporations taking over the health service with every breath in his body. On the second day of his state visit, during which he has been hosted by the Queen and Theresa May, the US president set out his ambitions for a “phenomenal” post-Brexit trade deal with the UK" |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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5th June 2019, 11:08 AM | #2512 |
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More "Brexit dividend" for Wales ?
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Part of the global automotive sector issues but Brexit isn't helping.. |
5th June 2019, 11:27 AM | #2513 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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5th June 2019, 11:29 AM | #2514 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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5th June 2019, 12:24 PM | #2515 |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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5th June 2019, 12:36 PM | #2516 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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5th June 2019, 01:31 PM | #2517 |
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Trump leaves the UK goes to Ireland and says he has spoken to people in the UK who are keen on Brexit and he wishes Ireland good luck with their wall and border. Fair play he understands Brexit better than the majority of the Tory leadership candidates.
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5th June 2019, 02:47 PM | #2518 |
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2016: ‘An extra £350m a week for the NHS.’
2019: The NHS is ‘on the table’ for trade agreements. And yet there are still people who voted Leave who deny they were conned. |
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5th June 2019, 09:54 PM | #2519 |
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Bolded sentence is simply wrong on all levels. That is just a lie perpetuated by ultranationalists like Mečiár (so he could get more power for corruption) or by certain Tiso.
Truth is that if it weren't for us, Slovaks would be speaking Hungarian and be part of Hungary and their "great" language would ben nothing more than footnote because it was barely surviving in few villages in mountains. Their language was not only official language of Czechoslovakia, but radio and later television had number of requirements with regard to representation of Slovak language in their broadcast. And it was thought even in Czech schools. Furthermore we sent loads of money to upgrade everything and certain necessary professions like teachers were often sent to Slovakia. Thanks for not perpetuating that Mečiar's lie anymore. |
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5th June 2019, 11:40 PM | #2520 |
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