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Old 9th June 2019, 01:54 AM   #2561
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Mr Gove announced his plan to replace VAT in the Sunday Telegraph, writing that his "business know-how" had allowed him to bring in positive changes to education, the environment and the justice system while in his various ministerial roles.

"My economic plan is driven by the need to increase investment, productivity and wages across the country, with a special focus on helping those areas and regions where productivity is lower," he wrote.

"It would mean reducing the regulations which hold business back, cutting and reforming taxes - such as business rates - which put pressure on small businesses and undermine our high streets, using the opportunity of life outside the EU to look to replace VAT with a lower, simpler, sales tax," he added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48571291
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Old 9th June 2019, 03:21 AM   #2562
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It does seem that Trump is promoting two impossible things before breakfast,
1. US healthcare works ( and delivers the greatest good for the greatest number, and that is actually terminal at the littoral boundary)
2. He can treble British trade. (UK GDP immediately increases by 50%).
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Old 9th June 2019, 03:37 AM   #2563
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Mr Gove announced his plan to replace VAT in the Sunday Telegraph, writing that his "business know-how" had allowed him to bring in positive changes to education, the environment and the justice system while in his various ministerial roles.
Utterly mad.

People may not like VAT, but at least they understand it; changing to another system would be a massive disruption for businesses, probably bigger than Brexit.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:04 AM   #2564
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None of the candidates is able to show how he/she could negotiate a better Brexit deal. Indeed, that issue is just being ignored, in favour of who took what drug.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:07 AM   #2565
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Utterly mad.

People may not like VAT, but at least they understand it; changing to another system would be a massive disruption for businesses, probably bigger than Brexit.
VAT is one of the easier to follow taxes! Add 20% to most good and services, with some obvious exemptions and then some get to claim it back.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:18 AM   #2566
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Mr Gove announced his plan to replace VAT in the Sunday Telegraph, writing that his "business know-how" had allowed him to bring in positive changes to education, the environment and the justice system while in his various ministerial roles.

"My economic plan is driven by the need to increase investment, productivity and wages across the country, with a special focus on helping those areas and regions where productivity is lower," he wrote.

"It would mean reducing the regulations which hold business back, cutting and reforming taxes - such as business rates - which put pressure on small businesses and undermine our high streets, using the opportunity of life outside the EU to look to replace VAT with a lower, simpler, sales tax," he added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48571291
He's not really abolishing VAT he is simply replacing it with a 'sales tax' which is what VAT is. Perhaps he plans to stop companies offsetting it against input VAT. (Purchases.)
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:26 AM   #2567
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
None of the candidates is able to show how he/she could negotiate a better Brexit deal. Indeed, that issue is just being ignored, in favour of who took what drug.
With BoJo claiming he'll withhold the £39bn 'divorce bill' the whole thing is becoming irresponsible and pathetic. Thank goodness I am out of here.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:35 AM   #2568
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
None of the candidates is able to show how he/she could negotiate a better Brexit deal. Indeed, that issue is just being ignored, in favour of who took what drug.
Well large doses on narcotics would explain a lot about Government policy in the last couple of years.
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Old 9th June 2019, 05:46 AM   #2569
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He's not really abolishing VAT he is simply replacing it with a 'sales tax' which is what VAT is. Perhaps he plans to stop companies offsetting it against input VAT. (Purchases.)
That is exactly what he plans doing and that is the essential difference between and sales tax. They are not the same thing.
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Old 9th June 2019, 07:52 AM   #2570
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
With BoJo claiming he'll withhold the £39bn 'divorce bill' the whole thing is becoming irresponsible and pathetic. Thank goodness I am out of here.
If Boris Johnson would be stupid enough to actually try that, what recourse would the EU have? Certainly they would immediately stop all trade talks (which they'd do anyway until the terms of the withdrawal agreements have been met), but other than that?
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Old 9th June 2019, 11:08 AM   #2571
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
If Boris Johnson would be stupid enough to actually try that, what recourse would the EU have? Certainly they would immediately stop all trade talks (which they'd do anyway until the terms of the withdrawal agreements have been met), but other than that?
Maybe international courts like International Court of Justice.
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Old 9th June 2019, 02:20 PM   #2572
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
If Boris Johnson would be stupid enough to actually try that, what recourse would the EU have? Certainly they would immediately stop all trade talks (which they'd do anyway until the terms of the withdrawal agreements have been met), but other than that?
According to Macron it would constitute a 'sovereign state default' (rather like Greece) which could result in a downgrade of credit and sterling being depreciated on the money markets.

This would happen because of the Fisher Miller effect of higher interest as a result of the credit rating down grade which has an automatic impact on exchange rate.
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Old 9th June 2019, 03:10 PM   #2573
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Well he kind of succeded
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:10 PM   #2574
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
If Boris Johnson would be stupid enough to actually try that, what recourse would the EU have? Certainly they would immediately stop all trade talks (which they'd do anyway until the terms of the withdrawal agreements have been met), but other than that?
You say 'they would immediately stop all trade talks' like that's not a big deal.
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:38 PM   #2575
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You say 'they would immediately stop all trade talks' like that's not a big deal.
Yes, Britain would simply negotiate a super magic trade deal post brexit with the EU having defaulted.

I am sure that would make the EU negotiators really well disposed toward Britain.

Of course, the rest of the world would rush, cap in hand, to make deals with Britain, it having demonstrated the value it places on commitments made.

Right?
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Old 9th June 2019, 04:41 PM   #2576
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
Well he kind of succeded
That's how the weasel words of every faux psychic work.
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Old 9th June 2019, 06:55 PM   #2577
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes, Britain would simply negotiate a super magic trade deal post brexit with the EU having defaulted.

I am sure that would make the EU negotiators really well disposed toward Britain.

Of course, the rest of the world would rush, cap in hand, to make deals with Britain, it having demonstrated the value it places on commitments made.

Right?
Don't worry. Donald Trump will make you the best trade deal in the history of trade deals, only 75% tariffs on British goods AND you get to turn your healthcare over to American insurance and pharmaceutical companies! Best deal ever! Get it while it's hot!
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:37 PM   #2578
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Boris is likely to win. Boris has decided that since the Irish border is a difficult problem he just won't bother about it at all.
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Old 9th June 2019, 09:51 PM   #2579
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You say 'they would immediately stop all trade talks' like that's not a big deal.
Why would it be a big deal? Why one would negotiate something with bad actor...
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Old 9th June 2019, 11:00 PM   #2580
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Which is not what you originally claimed people voted for at all. It's a mile away in fact. And yes you would know very clearly because it would be a significant legal change of status.
Of course it would. The parties in power all advocate for further integration.

Quote:
Not in 2 years, not in 20 years, not in 200 years.
I'm sure the Scotts said the same at many points in the past. Why not? Stranger things have happened, surely.

Quote:
I don't know anybody in Austria that wants to be part of Germany. I'm sure there must be some - Nazis possibly. But there is no serious political movement as far as I am aware of to make this happen.
Yea. If it wasn't for the Nazis, Austria would likely be a federal subject of Germany right now. Or not, we can't be sure. But it wouldn't be a strange suggestion at all.

Quote:
However, there is nobody (!) who thinks they are the same nation as Bulgaria or Albania and both sides agree that they DON'T want a European superstate and the relinquishing of nationhood.
I'm sure many Scotts would oppose being called the same nation as Englishmen too. Yet, they're a part of the same state. State and ethnicity are not the same thing, they never were. There was a brief time in history, perhaps 200 years or so, when the aim was to obtain proper nation-states in Europe. The end result were some of the bloodiest wars in human history and, curiously, the EU. There is absolutely no reason, historic or otherwise, for nations to be synonimous with states.

I assure you the exact same concerns were being voiced ~1500 years ago (give or take another 500, depending on the area), when various tribes were forming the first nations. The question is exactly the same and so is the only correct answer.

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It does when you are asking people to relinquish it.
Relinquish what? The people relinquish nothing. They exercise their soverignty in a different manner, that's it. National politicians do relinquish power and authority, that's why the process is difficult.

But the people? Zero difference.

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You keep saying that as if somehow it's going to happen by accident despite nobody wanting it. It really isn't.
Try reading the Treaty of Rome. You don't need to go through the whole thing, the first line will do.

https://ec.europa.eu/romania/sites/r...de_la_roma.pdf

Right after where they list all the signatories. It's not an accident and I assure far more than "nobody" wants it.

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This is your opinion but it seems a mile away from reality. I think you don't appreciate what a 'state' would be. A single flag, a single language?, a single national anthem?, a single football team at the World Cup?, a single Olympic team? Not happening.
Of the above? Just the flag, we already have that. All the rest remains like today. Consider: of the above the UK has a single flag (kinda) and a single national anthem, but none of the others.

No. The unified European superstate means it has a legislative body (parliament) that is able to write laws that can be implemented regardless of the consent of member states, an executive that can follow those laws where applicable and runs a common external policy plus a fiscal union. We already have the ECJ, which might obtain greater function too. A pan-European police force is a maybe, a pan-European military is a far weaker maybe - neither are strictly necessary. Maybe sometime in the future, with the police force coming in decades before the military.

Anthems, WC teams and whatnot? No, why would we want to unify that? We can take far more prizes if we play those separately. There's no reason to delve into such minor details. If there is a broad consensus we should do so then sure, I don't mind, but it's an unimportant issue one way or the other.

Quote:
Since most things seem to point to smaller nations being more prosperous in general then if anything the opposite is more likely. That huge states with multiple cultures like China and India will disintegrate and fragment. Europe and Russia may well further subdivide.
China has had plenty of opportunities to fragment, but it didn't - thanks to a common identity shared between the various Chinese nations.

Yeah they have those, didn't you know? China can be described as a family of nations, bound together by a common Chinese identity.

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Old 9th June 2019, 11:31 PM   #2581
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Boris is proposing a huge tax cut for high earners funding it by using

Quote:
money currently set aside for a no-deal Brexit to raise the 40% tax rate threshold to £80,000.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48577579

Don't know if this means he plans to do a deal (in which case money put aside for the dire consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be spunked away on the rich) or if he's going to default on the divorce payment any use that.
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Old 9th June 2019, 11:41 PM   #2582
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Boris is proposing a huge tax cut for high earners funding it by using

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48577579

Don't know if this means he plans to do a deal (in which case money put aside for the dire consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be spunked away on the rich) or if he's going to default on the divorce payment any use that.
It's kind of hard to default on the dicorce payment and not have a no-deal Brexit.

Maybe he's plan - I'm not sure that's the right word here - to do a deal with the EU, then default on the payment and expect everything to go smoothly from there on.

Would that be his stupidest idea of the week?

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Old 10th June 2019, 12:18 AM   #2583
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's kind of hard to default on the dicorce payment and not have a no-deal Brexit.

Maybe he's plan - I'm not sure that's the right word here - to do a deal with the EU, then default on the payment and expect everything to go smoothly from there on.

Would that be his stupidest idea of the week?

McHrozni
Unless his plan is to use exactly the right combination of words (written in the right colour ink ?) which will suddenly cause the EU to give the UK the kind of trade deal that the Brexiteers promised us during the referendum campaign (a la Sovereign Citizen movement) in which case there will be no need for money to be set aside in case of a no-deal Brexit and no divorce payment required.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:44 AM   #2584
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I think we are back to square one, where Britain is Great, the EU needs us more than we need it and we will get the full benefit of membership without the cost or need to comply with rules over immigrants.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:44 AM   #2585
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You say 'they would immediately stop all trade talks' like that's not a big deal.
My apologies if it comes across as that, but I'm just trying to get my head around the somewhat cavalier notion of "We'll withhold payment to force them give us a better deal", and what on earth is making Boris Johnson think it'll actually work.

And I must admit, at some level I fear it might work, unless the EU have a fairly straight forward recourse that allows them to put the squeeze on a future PM reckless enough to try it.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:12 AM   #2586
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
My apologies if it comes across as that, but I'm just trying to get my head around the somewhat cavalier notion of "We'll withhold payment to force them give us a better deal", and what on earth is making Boris Johnson think it'll actually work.

And I must admit, at some level I fear it might work, unless the EU have a fairly straight forward recourse that allows them to put the squeeze on a future PM reckless enough to try it.
I think it boils down to the highlighted bit from Nessie's post

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think we are back to square one, where Britain is Great, the EU needs us more than we need it and we will get the full benefit of membership without the cost or need to comply with rules over immigrants.
IOW, unicorns, rainbows and other forms of magical thinking.....
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:35 AM   #2587
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I have been wondering why so many Tories are standing to be PM. I think it is because they genuinely believe that they would have done a better job than May at Brexit.

I think it is a sign of over confidence beating a genuine understanding of the issues and reality.

When the next PM gets bogged down like May did, I wonder if that will finally dent the over confidence and wake Brexiters up to that reality.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:56 AM   #2588
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
If Boris Johnson would be stupid enough to actually try that, what recourse would the EU have? Certainly they would immediately stop all trade talks (which they'd do anyway until the terms of the withdrawal agreements have been met), but other than that?
Defaulting on an international debt?

It would tank Britains international credit rating and make any prospective trade partners think twice.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:58 AM   #2589
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Boris is proposing a huge tax cut for high earners funding it by using



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48577579

Don't know if this means he plans to do a deal (in which case money put aside for the dire consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be spunked away on the rich) or if he's going to default on the divorce payment any use that.
He also plans to increase National Insurance contributions.
So he is giving a tax cut with one hand and taking it away with the other.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:07 AM   #2590
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have been wondering why so many Tories are standing to be PM. I think it is because they genuinely believe that they would have done a better job than May at Brexit.

I think it is a sign of over confidence beating a genuine understanding of the issues and reality.

When the next PM gets bogged down like May did, I wonder if that will finally dent the over confidence and wake Brexiters up to that reality.
IMO no.

If the next PM gets bogged down then the Brexiteers will just put it down to that individual not being up to the job and/or foreigners being beastly.

Then again the next PM may cut the Gordian knot and simply leave with a no-deal. Any or all negative consequences will be blamed on beastly foreigners and the PM will be hailed as a hero by the Conservative Party.

IMO there's a mixture of those who absolutely know the score and who are in it for personal gain, those who know the score but who are doing it for ideological reasons (better to be a free pauper than a lord who has to bow to a foreign power) and those who are genuinely deluded and think that the British Empire v 2.0 will emerge from the ashes of a no-deal Brexit.

Those groups are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:11 AM   #2591
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He also plans to increase National Insurance contributions.
So he is giving a tax cut with one hand and taking it away with the other.
Unless that income is not subject to National Insurance contributions.

AFAIK investment income, dividends and capital gains are not, and rich people get a far greater proportion of their income from these sources than the rest of us.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:24 AM   #2592
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He also plans to increase National Insurance contributions.
So he is giving a tax cut with one hand and taking it away with the other.
As the Don says, he's giving to the well off with one hand, and taking from the rest with the other.

Again.

Bloody Tories...
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:39 AM   #2593
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Boris is proposing a huge tax cut for high earners funding it by using



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48577579

Don't know if this means he plans to do a deal (in which case money put aside for the dire consequences of a no-deal Brexit will be spunked away on the rich) or if he's going to default on the divorce payment any use that.
The man is going to fund the tax cut (affecting three million) by increasing National Insurance contributions affecting twenty million.

The man is an idiot. A no-deal Brexit and withholding of the 'divorce settlement' will immediately plunge the UK into an economic crisis as investors line up to remove their funds (cf Neil Woodford recently) resulting in fundholders 'suspending' the acccounts to avoid a run, banks shutting their doors (ditto) and the government having to 'do a Greece/Cyrpus' by helping themselves to 10% f each bank account holder's money. Unemployment will surge as redundancies spiral, thanks to companies leaving our shores.

I for one will remove all of my funds from the UK including my healthy pension pot if there is any whiff of a no-deal Brexit.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:42 AM   #2594
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The man is an idiot.
Maybe not. Remember, it's the Conservative party membership that's voting for the next PM, not the public. Perhaps funding tax cuts for the wealthy with tax increases for the less well off is exactly what he needs.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:45 AM   #2595
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unless [Boris Johnsons'] plan is to use exactly the right combination of words (written in the right colour ink ?) which will suddenly cause the EU to give the UK the kind of trade deal that the Brexiteers promised us during the referendum campaign (a la Sovereign Citizen movement) in which case there will be no need for money to be set aside in case of a no-deal Brexit and no divorce payment required.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
[Boris Johnson] also plans to increase National Insurance contributions.
So he is giving a tax cut with one hand and taking it away with the other.
You guys keep using this word, I'm not sure it's appropriate. Could you present some evidence maybe?

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Old 10th June 2019, 02:50 AM   #2596
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Maybe not. Remember, it's the Conservative party membership that's voting for the next PM, not the public. Perhaps funding tax cuts for the wealthy with tax increases for the less well off is exactly what he needs.
I can't see that it would entice the tax exiles back to the UK. On the other hand, many of the >£80K earners have already ensured they receive their income through their limited companies thus paying at company tax rate (20%) and as a charge against profits. Others will be the small band of plc CEO's and senior public servants such as judges who earn well over >£120K.

It will have an impact on how much tax relief they get on their pension contributions.

I would guess BoJo would not only need to increase NI but may also decrease personal tax thresholds so that one starts paying tax from say, £4K pa upwards rather than the current basic £12K.

It will, of course, hit ordinary people the hardest.
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Last edited by Vixen; 10th June 2019 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:52 AM   #2597
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You guys keep using this word, I'm not sure it's appropriate. Could you present some evidence maybe?

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Have a look at the news..?
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:56 AM   #2598
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Have a look at the news..?
I think McHrozni was questioning whether BoJo has an actual (coherent and thought through) plan - as opposed to just saying stuff.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:56 AM   #2599
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Have a look at the news..?
Yeah, I'm trying to say his ideas do not merit being called plans.

We don't call flat earthers giving out theories either. They're either ideas if you want to be polite or BS if you call a spade a spade.

It works the same with BJ Baboon.

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Old 10th June 2019, 04:11 AM   #2600
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Interestingly, people in the UK are now much less concerned about immigration - one of the key drivers behind Brexit.

Quote:
Something remarkable appears to be happening when it comes to public concern about immigration - British attitudes appear to be undergoing a turnaround.

Where once immigration was seen as the biggest problem for the UK, a negative force on national life, now it barely registers on the list of voter concerns, with polls suggesting increasing numbers believe it has had a positive impact on Britain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48545143

Of course it could be that Brexiteers think that, as Brexit is underway, all of their issues relating to immigration will be resolved as a result.

I hope that it really does reflect more positive attitudes to immigrants and immigration.
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