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11th July 2019, 06:42 AM | #1 |
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The Labour party has a serious racism problem
“BBC Panorama spoke to former party officials, who alleged they had to deal with a huge increase in anti-Semitism complaints since Mr Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015.
Eight former officials who worked in the team and dealt with anti-Semitism cases claimed to the BBC that: - The leader's office was "angry and obstructive" when it came to the issue - Officials brought in by the party's general secretary, Jennie Formby, "overruled" some of their disciplinary decisions and "downgraded" punishments to a "slap on the wrist" - Seumas Milne, one of Mr Corbyn's closest aides, laughed when advised by a long-serving party official about what Mr Corbyn should do to tackle anti-Semitism in the party - On one occasion, Mr Corbyn's office ordered batches of anti-Semitism complaints to be brought to his Commons office for processing by his aides” And the Guardian’s take on it (it’s a real problem): https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-jeremy-corbyn |
11th July 2019, 09:10 AM | #2 |
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Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.
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11th July 2019, 10:16 AM | #3 |
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11th July 2019, 10:42 AM | #4 |
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11th July 2019, 12:38 PM | #5 |
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If there's a way to shoot itself in the foot, Labour will find it.
Jesus, this stuff is stupid. |
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11th July 2019, 12:40 PM | #6 |
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Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.
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11th July 2019, 02:01 PM | #7 |
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11th July 2019, 03:41 PM | #8 |
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I think it is safe to say that Corbyn being selected as leader is turning out to be a disaster for Labor. If Labor had a halfway acceptable to people who are not on the far left leader Labor would be looking at a easy win. Instead they seem to be pissing away a golden opportunity against a badly divided and inept Conservative party.
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11th July 2019, 11:42 PM | #9 |
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I agree wholeheartedly. Those of us in the party who were part of the New Labour movement have said this all along. Then again we were written off as "red Tories" by the old Trots and new joiners (who had no memory of the 79-97 period) and instead they chose Jeremy Corbyn.
I wouldn't have minded if I disagreed with many of his policies* if only he had been an effective leader and if only he didn't have a closet full of skeleton (real and imagined) that the Conservatives and their right wing press could use to distract and deflect whenever he was in a position to actually make a point. * - apart from Brexit, like Tony Blair's policy on Iraq, Brexit is a deal-breaker |
12th July 2019, 12:05 AM | #10 |
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Let me know if and when this actually happens.
Corbyn is a disaster. When I look back on past PMs, I look on the forthcoming Johnson vs Corbyn election as a battle between two very average flyweights. I have and always will be of the left, but I want Boris to win (and be immediately deposed, of course). |
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12th July 2019, 12:23 AM | #11 |
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It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.
IMO Boris will wipe the floor with Corbyn because the character he plays is designed to appeal to the British public, he uses long words and a significant proportion of the UK electorate seem to like a toff. |
12th July 2019, 10:42 AM | #12 |
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Yeah but we're talking about the present, and the fact is that Muslim's, especially Arabs ones, have a strong tendency to be antisemitic.
This isn't even something that is exclusive to Labour or the UK. Typically it's left-wing parties that have sought voters among immigrant communities, a large portion of which are Muslim or originate from Muslim countries. These run a real risk of either coopting, or even being captured, on the local levels by people whose opinions are often completely contrary to what their party notionally stands for. |
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
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15th July 2019, 10:16 AM | #13 |
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Straight out of the playbook (i.e. that it's orchestrated).
Here are some others (about anti-Semitism): In September 2017, general secretary of Unite the Union, Len McCluskey said that the row "was created by people who were trying to undermine Jeremy Corbyn In May 2019, Labour National Executive Committee member Peter Willsman asserted that the Israeli embassy were "behind all this antisemitism" and were "the ones whipping it all up". source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antise...39;s_responses Isn't it nice to see that posters here are so on message. |
15th July 2019, 10:49 AM | #14 |
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15th July 2019, 11:18 AM | #15 |
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Both major UK parties have a serious racism issue. It only seems to be a 'problem' for one of them though. Can't think why.... oh wait, yes I can.
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16th July 2019, 02:20 AM | #16 |
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16th July 2019, 07:40 AM | #17 |
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"To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage
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16th July 2019, 11:38 AM | #18 |
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16th July 2019, 12:16 PM | #19 |
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Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86 |
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16th July 2019, 02:52 PM | #20 |
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16th July 2019, 07:08 PM | #21 |
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Sorry, I'm not psychic, so I have no idea what drives other people to do it, if it actually happens.
Can you provide evidence that critics of Israel aren't just trolls muddying the water? I ask because Israel's direct policies and actions are quite despicable on their own and making stuff up is unnecessary and unhelpful. As I said before, the beneficiary of the alleged combining genuine criticism and antisemitism is Israel. It's bloody handy, acting inhumanely towards millions of people, to be able to raise your hands and say "Look at all this antisemtism?" when people ask what the hell's going on. And it's factual that any criticism of Israel and its revolting human rights record is certain to attract claims of antisemitism, no matter how accurate the criticism. |
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17th July 2019, 01:13 AM | #22 |
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17th July 2019, 06:31 AM | #23 |
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17th July 2019, 12:02 PM | #24 |
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Well it's a stonking example of really bad tactics. If your political opponents are making a mess - you don't come out with something that the vast majority of British voters don't care about, and which is also unpopular.
Also, given the history of the habitation of the Falkland Islands, with no permanent residents until the British colonists, and their strong desire to remain under British rule - it's also wrongheaded. ETA: I have also only mentioned it a couple of times |
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17th July 2019, 12:45 PM | #25 |
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17th July 2019, 12:45 PM | #26 |
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17th July 2019, 01:14 PM | #27 |
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Religious nutter says something nutty and is widely condemned for it by people from his own party and the Israeli public in general.
To me this seems like an issue where the condemnation should go to Rafi Peretz the individual nutter who made the nutter statements, but for some bizarro reason you think it should reflect on all of Israel? I don't follow your reasoning. My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole. Does it matter? If so, why? Maybe if you ignore the context of a multi-generational conflict, but ignoring that context would be incorrect. That's one point of view. Another is that the legitimate criticisms get amplified tremendously both through the actions of overt anti-Semites and also by how its received by those unaware of their own biases. As someone who follows the issues closely, I can attest it is not true that all criticisms of Israel are deflected by charges of anti-Semitism. At the same time, criticism of Israel is certainly exacerbated by anti-Semitism, so discussion of the issue is certainly relevant and well-poisoning efforts such as this one are misplaced. No, that's not factual at all. |
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17th July 2019, 01:45 PM | #28 |
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That's not true. The US as a whole comes in for a host of criticism because of its leaders and their policies as well as for the population who vote for them. Of course that criticism is never taken as a personal insult to every member of the population but a criticism of the regime overall.
The confusion seems to be that since Israel sets itself as a religious ethnostate then criticism of the state is seen as criticism of the ethnicity. |
17th July 2019, 02:06 PM | #29 |
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17th July 2019, 02:06 PM | #30 |
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But is still Minister of Education.
Is he still the Minister of Education? Donald Trump is one man, and he reflects very badly on USA. Vote for nutters, expect to be called nutters. Of course it matters - it's the whole point. We know for certain that people will pretend to be something they're not to advance an opposite agenda, so to have a fair discussion on the subject, evidence of what is really happening would be kinda useful. I know that some criticism of Israel is due to antisemitism, but how much? Ah, history. Yeah, that's important. Unless you happen to have had your land confiscated in 1948. See above re: evidence. "Not all". I guess that's fine then. See above regarding evidence. "Well poisoning." Nice. Again, I'd need to see some evidence, because my own knowledge certainly shows it to be true most of the time. It's a ridiculously polarising topic. If I criticise Israel, I get called antisemitic; I stage an anti-protestor protest against clowns trying to stop Israeli players at a tournament and I get called a Jew. To go back onto the topic of Labour and antisemitism, yes, it has been a problem for the left in general, but how much of it, like Omar's comments, have people screeching "antisemtism!" when it actually isn't? |
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17th July 2019, 03:24 PM | #31 |
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17th July 2019, 11:40 PM | #32 |
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Recently some Labour peers put out an advert decrying the antisemitism of the Labour Party under Corbyn.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9007986.html What's interesting is that I don't remember any of them (including the dozen or so former ministers under Blair) speaking out against antisemitism in Labour before Corbyn became Labour leader. For example, in 2005 when Blair's government put out a poster depicting Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin, both Jewish, as pigs, a clear antisemitic trope, none of them said a word. Peter Hain, for instance, who is one of the signatories on the advert, was Leader of the House of Commons in 2005 when the poster was released. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4223091.stm It's almost as if they don't actually care about antisemitism and are just cynically using it as a political weapon. |
18th July 2019, 02:07 AM | #33 |
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18th July 2019, 09:13 AM | #34 |
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Headline: "Labour staff GMB union branch votes to condemn response to Panorama"
Quote:
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18th July 2019, 10:21 AM | #35 |
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19th July 2019, 11:14 AM | #36 |
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As far as I know, he hasn’t resigned or been removed from office in the last four days since he made those statements. At the same time, as deplorable as his attitudes are, it’s not as though he has the authority to create a government sponsored program to create gay conversion camps. I put his odds of staying in office at about 50/50, about the same as if her were an official of the US, Spain, Greece, or any other Western European nation. If he were an official of a South American nation, Eastern Europe or Asia, I’d put his odds of remaining in office at 100%.
Is this a conspiracy theory? Anti-Semitic nutters are really trolls using anti-Semitism to discredit anti-Israel activists? I’ll tell you the ones I’ve talked to are quite sincere in their anti-Semitism, many of them claiming not to be anti-Semitic while doing it. Here is another fellow who is also quite sincere in his anti-Semitism. I’m sure if you ask him he will even describe it as anti-Zionism: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...w-on-the-globe That’s a good and reasonable question. In order to answer it, you have to be willing to look at it honestly. Which means, among other things, maybe not dismiss every instance where anti-Semitism is called out as an attempt to deflect criticism of Israel. Jews also had land confiscated in 1948, land controlled by Arabs was made 100% Jew free. Further, in the years after the war, Jews were expelled from neighboring Arab nations in the time after that war. If you’re not aware of this or think it doesn’t matter, then you’ve got some filters on. Don’t put words in my mouth. You speak for yourself and let me speak for myself. Fine, but provide evidence of your own claims too. Claims that calling out anti-Semitism isn’t really used to call out anti-Semitism but to obscure legitimate criticism of Israel seem to me to be an effort to discourage calling out anti-Semitism. To me that seems pretty close to the logical fallacy of poisoning the well, but if you disagree we can certainly discuss coming up with a different term instead and I’ll use that one in the future. But it’s still BS. Anti-Semitism should be called out wherever it’s found, and I’m not at all concerned if that creates a problem for people who are also critical of Israel. Congratulations. You have experienced anti-Semitism in a way that doesn’t require being Jewish. To go back onto the topic of Labour and antisemitism, yes, it has been a problem for the left in general, but how much of it, like Omar's comments, have people screeching "antisemtism!" when it actually isn't? [/quote] Omar’s statements are a great example. She made some twitter comments that touched on anti-Semitic tropes. They were anti-Semitic. At the same time, she’s been critical of Israel for a long time, and has made a lot of statements to that effect that (as far as I know) are not anti-Semitic. Does her anti-Semitic comments mean she hates Jews? Well, not necessarily. It’s very likely she wasn’t aware of these tropes and was just repeating things she had heard without ever thinking to question them. Does that mean her other criticisms of Israel are invalid? Well, to some people maybe it does. To me and most reasonable people I think her other criticisms should be evaluated independently of these statements, they may be valid or not. I think, and you may or may not agree, that it should be possible to criticize Israel without relying on anti-Semitic tropes, AND it’s also fair to call out anti-Semitism wherever you see it, even if it’s from someone who is criticizing Israel. |
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19th July 2019, 11:15 AM | #37 |
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19th July 2019, 11:26 AM | #38 |
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I'd go along with that. Another good example of the same effect is Jill Stein took a lot of flak for cosying up to antivax sentiment, which I doubt she realised.
Hopefully, Omar will think a bit harder next time because it is a minefield, but one without a handy warning sign. The number of people capable of that nuanced thinking are few & far between. I'd agree 100%, but the problem will always exist - on both sides - of being used by people with their own agenda. Quite funny really - I can't think of any other issue that divides people so viscerally on both sides of the political spectrum. UK Labour is a perfect example - they unquestionably have antisemites in the party. As well as that, the broad left has long been anti-Israel, for what I'd certainly call their sins, and it's not always straightforward to know which of those two camps people are in. |
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19th July 2019, 11:51 AM | #39 |
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It depends. And that's pretty much exactly the sticking point here.
If people are 'Anti-American' in that they object to the actions of the country, its politics, what it stands for etc then no. If people are 'Anti-American' in that they hate American people because of the actions of the country then yes. If I decide to, for example, boycott Coca-Cola because of Trump then I am not being prejudiced against Americans. And that would be very different in nature to finding out where an American family live near me and scrawling 'Trump is a racist' on their door. |
25th July 2019, 05:20 AM | #40 |
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