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Old 25th March 2019, 10:23 AM   #601
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
So TM says:

1. We can't have her deal because it's been rejected
I don'tthink she ever has said, or ever will say, that. She just says we can't have it yet because the people voting on it haven't got the right answer yet.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I think she's given up now.
No, she's still holding the "The answer is my deal, even though I didn't listen to the question" line; she just used it on Ed Milliband.

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Old 25th March 2019, 10:24 AM   #602
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Ah, March the 15th again.
It's amazing that we asked for an extension from the EU and have spent the time making ZERO progress on anything.

I think her final roll of the dice may well be simply to say 'look vote for my deal or I will revoke A50 and then resign'

If there is a game of no-deal chicken I think she will blink first because she really doesn't want to be the PM who led us into that catastrophe.

So either she gets a long extension of at least a year or revokes a50, quits, we call an election and see if we can go somewhere from there.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:27 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I think her final roll of the dice may well be simply to say 'look vote for my deal or I will revoke A50 and then resign'
I'd be happy with that; there's no way Parliament would vote for her deal, so that would get us off the hook nicely. Unfortunately, she's unlikely to do anything that sensible. Or that decisive.

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Old 25th March 2019, 10:37 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
So TM says:

1. We can't have her deal because it's been rejected
2. We can't have no deal because it's been rejected
3. She won't revoke A50
4. She won't bring alternative proposals to the house because the EU might not agree to them and/or Parliament might like some of them.

I think she's given up now.
I note one of those options lacks a "because" statement.

I hold out hope that she is secretly headed to that safe port, knowing that her ship is incapable of any further voyage.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:39 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then why have a referendum?
Democracy.

Quote:
How about limiting the decision to a known group with reasonable knowledge?
Wisdom of the crowd.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:40 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's amazing that we asked for an extension from the EU and have spent the time making ZERO progress on anything.

I think her final roll of the dice may well be simply to say 'look vote for my deal or I will revoke A50 and then resign'

If there is a game of no-deal chicken I think she will blink first because she really doesn't want to be the PM who led us into that catastrophe.

So either she gets a long extension of at least a year or revokes a50, quits, we call an election and see if we can go somewhere from there.
I disagree. I think while she would prefer her deal to pass, she considers no-deal to be a perfectly acceptable second prize which will also be very popular in the Conservative Party.

She, and the Conservative Party, don't think that a no-deal Brexit will be a catastrophe, instead they think it will be a series of short term inconveniences until the Europeans come to their senses, realise that they need us more than we need then, and accede to our wishes - this despite ample evidence to the contrary.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:44 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
She, and the Conservative Party, don't think that a no-deal Brexit will be a catastrophe,.
I am not so sure. She's useless but not stupid.

Even most of the MPs who support No Deal are only doing it for their own interests. They know it will be a disaster for the country as well.
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Old 25th March 2019, 11:59 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I disagree. I think while she would prefer her deal to pass, she considers no-deal to be a perfectly acceptable second prize which will also be very popular in the Conservative Party.

She, and the Conservative Party, don't think that a no-deal Brexit will be a catastrophe, instead they think it will be a series of short term inconveniences until the Europeans come to their senses, realise that they need us more than we need then, and accede to our wishes - this despite ample evidence to the contrary.
Agreed. Isn't that what hard Brexiteers have been selling all along? As for May, "If they vote down my agreement and mistreat me in the House," she must think, "I jolly well shall take the lead on the only option left," whilst blaming absolutely everyone else who is not of like mind for all bad tidings.
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Old 25th March 2019, 12:03 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The first two points were:

1. People were promised things and they voted for them
2. The government is unable to deliver the things people were promised

and they're inextricably linked. Strictly speaking, the only things on the 'contract' were stay and leave, and the voters signed for leave, so crashing out with no deal would fulfill the terms of that contract.
Yep the people voted to tear up the good friday agreement and that is what the UK government is bound to do. Why else hold a non binding referendum if not to give the government coverage for violating its international obligations?
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Old 25th March 2019, 12:37 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And why would someone that uses skepticism think a second referendum ensures the right decisions are made?
There's no guarantee of the best possible outcome, but can you not see that a decision based on the actual options available is likely to be better than one based on purely imaginary deals and outcomes that have since been shown to not be on offer? I honestly don't think you're so stupid you can't see this, while you frequently skirt the fringe of trolling I actually find some of your questions interesting and sometimes inciteful, but this is below you.
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Old 25th March 2019, 12:41 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
There's no guarantee of the best possible outcome, but can you not see that a decision based on the actual options available is likely to be better than one based on purely imaginary deals and outcomes that have since been shown to not be on offer? I honestly don't think you're so stupid you can't see this, while you frequently skirt the fringe of trolling I actually find some of your questions interesting and sometimes inciteful, but this is below you.
The actual options are the same as the actual options three years ago. Non stupid people knew it was bad and didn't fall for it
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Old 25th March 2019, 12:45 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The actual options are the same as the actual options three years ago. Non stupid people knew it was bad and didn't fall for it
thats not true. nobody knew what the withdrawal agreement would be 3 years ago
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Old 25th March 2019, 12:55 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
thats not true. nobody knew what the withdrawal agreement would be 3 years ago
The guardian in the lead up wrote

Quote:
It will put the settlement in Northern Ireland – the fragile prize won so recently from decades of hatred – at risk. Is that worth it? Not at all.
Backstop
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Old 25th March 2019, 01:05 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
thats not true. nobody knew what the withdrawal agreement would be 3 years ago
Sure they did, the leave campaign was quite clear, it would be all the benefits and none of the costs/responsibilities of membership. Now we are having reality like the Spanish will not simply give British pensioners free healthcare out of the goodness of their hearts, and that the brits may have to buy their health care on the free market.
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Old 25th March 2019, 01:17 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The actual options are the same as the actual options three years ago. Non stupid people knew it was bad and didn't fall for it
Sorry Bob, you're not that stupid and I really can't be bothered to play your games. I'm taking a break from even reading your posts.
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:12 PM   #616
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Just 2 mins ago - MPs vote for Indicative Votes (i.e. putting more control in hands of all MPs, and weakening Mrs May's control). Vital vote ... 329 for the Indicative Voting vs 302 against (and Mrs May had put a Whip on all Tories to vote against that ... so 329 to 302 was bigger than expected victory, ie now enabling MPs to have a list of options for Indicative Voting this week).

Update ... BBC report here -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47701591


Update ... 3 Conservative MPs are reported to have resigned this evening in order to defy Mrs May's Tory Whip, and vote for the above Indicative Votes.

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Old 25th March 2019, 03:18 PM   #617
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Plus another two ministerial resignations, I believe.

ETA make that three.
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:20 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
Plus another two ministerial resignations, I believe.
It's three now.

As well as Richard Harrington, the Foreign Office minister Alistair Burt and the health minister Steve Brine have also resigned because they voted for the Letwin amendment, government sources have confirmed.

The Beckett amendment could also be very important and is being voted on right now.

It's all kicking off Bye, Theresa, nice to have known you.
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:22 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It's three now.

As well as Richard Harrington, the Foreign Office minister Alistair Burt and the health minister Steve Brine have also resigned because they voted for the Letwin amendment, government sources have confirmed.
You beat me to my edit

May is surely toast before long now?
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:24 PM   #620
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All in all, 30 Tories voted for Letwin's amendment.
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:27 PM   #621
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Second amendment defeated
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:28 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
You beat me to my edit

May is surely toast before long now?
I cross-edited too Yeah, toast pretty soon, especially if the Beckett amendment passes; that makes May surplus to requirements afaics.

Mind you ... crazy days.

eta: damn. Beckett defeated by three. Time yet for that, perhaps?
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:32 PM   #623
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Parliament still have other mechanisms for preventing no deal now, so hopefully not a big issue.

Main motion now being voted on...
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:42 PM   #624
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Doubtless, all the leave voters will be delighted by this victory for parliamentary sovereignty.
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:43 PM   #625
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Passed 327 to 300.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:37 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
Doubtless, all the leave voters will be delighted by this victory for parliamentary sovereignty.
If delight is displayed by apoplexy, you nailed it.

You guys are funnier than Americans.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:50 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If delight is displayed by apoplexy, you nailed it.

You guys are funnier than Americans.
We aim to please.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:52 PM   #628
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Richard Harrington's resignation letter. Pretty scathing:

https://twitter.com/Richard4Watford/...02682835759106
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:03 PM   #629
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What are the looking term ramifications for this? Party discipline, whips, loyalty to your party. All they can be ignored now. Probably means a lot of unpredictable outcomes for a long time on contentious issues.
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:04 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
We aim to please.
All you need is the Benny Hill wacky sax now.
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:18 PM   #631
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AFAIK nothing has changed, constitutionally, despite claims by some MPs who opposed the Letwin amendment (like Bill Cash).

In essence, this is just a one-day suspension of Standing Order 14(1) (which "provides that government business shall have precedence at every sitting", with certain exceptions such as days set aside for opposition days, private members' bills etc.). Standing Orders can be changed by Parliament if it so wishes, this is not in principle anything new. It's Parliament asserting its existing authority in the face of, basically, incompetence by the executive.

ETA: Obviously, I am not a lawyer so this could be off.
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:19 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
All you need is the Benny Hill wacky sax now.
Like I said, we aim to please:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ

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Old 25th March 2019, 09:20 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then why have a referendum? How about limiting the decision to a known group with reasonable knowledge?
If you ever wonder why people get fed up with your postings, just reread this post and ponder it with deep introspection.
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Old 25th March 2019, 11:02 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
We aim to please.

Here we call it a "hold my beer".

(Which basically means that in a crowd when someone does something absolutely insane there will always be another person that says "Hold my beer. You haven't seen anything yet!")
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Old 25th March 2019, 11:26 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
If you ever wonder why people get fed up with your postings, just reread this post and ponder it with deep introspection.
I don't follow
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:12 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't follow
Because your philosophy tends to prefer an idealised* system to people, when the system is set up by people for their mutual benefit**.

*And often unpleasant imagined version of the rules.

**ETA, or at least a compromise to stop any one group exercising too much power over the rest.
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Old 26th March 2019, 12:42 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You got me on board with every point but the first one. As a lot of people with me in boot camp learned,what the person said will happen and what the contract you signed said are different. Only the actual document matters.
Contracts are legally binding, the said referendum was not. In a sense the referendum is what the recruiter said, legality is a whole lot different.

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Old 26th March 2019, 02:10 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Any goods you buy that come from the EU are cheaper because of the EU. You can travel abroad in the EU with minimal documentation. You need a passport at the border between the UK and the rest of the EU (except Ireland) but your drivers license and your car insurance are valid in the EU. Also, Your mobile phone operator cannot fleece you as it used to do when in other EU countries.

Your car is much safer than in the past because of EU standards. Food that you eat is safer because of EU safety standards.

Your employment rights are higher because of EU employment law. For example, most people cannot be made to work more than 48 hours per week because of the EU.

If you are a research scientist, you could be being funded by the EU science budget. If you work for an airline, your company benefits enormously from EU wide agreements on air travel.

You can be sure your Claret comes from Bordeaux, your Parma ham and your Stilton come from the correct regions.

If you want to live and work in Germany, France or even Romania, you can do so thanks to the EU.

There are down sides of course, you cannot drive your workers for 80 hours a week and you cannot call your dry cured ham that you make in a factory outside Rotherham “Parma ham”. Also, you can’t stop Romanians, Germans or French from coming here, taking jobs, paying taxes and improving the cultural diversity of the place.

It should be noted that, when I say “the EU”, as of now that includes the UK. All of the laws and regulations that lead to the things above were agreed in a decision making process in which the British government has huge influence. That influence will be going away in any scenario that is not Remain.
Quoted simply because this is a great statement.
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:17 AM   #639
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a couple of other countries vote to leave the EU, only to find themselves in an incredible mess, so reversed their decision? I haven't seen any mention of this in relation to Brexit, though, which seems very strange if it happened. Did I dream it?
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Old 26th March 2019, 03:21 AM   #640
Traveler Steve
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Join Date: May 2006
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As a Yank I am following this in horrified fascination. Forgive me this question, as I don't see it outlined above in the thread, but -

What if, for some extreme and extraordinary reason, the Queen comes out with a statement boiled down to "We would prefer not to exit the EU."

Please understand, I don't expect that to happen. But crazier things have indeed happened in the world, and I am genuinely curious what might happen if that occurred. From the social standpoint it would be a "wow' moment, I feel, but does it have any legal weight? Can the Queen stop this if she so chose?
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