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3rd June 2019, 01:57 AM | #2441 |
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That makes it very significant. It is the reason why we are leaving the EU.
Farage via UKIP and the Brexit Party has found, to many people's surprise, that there is a lot of dislike of the EU, so much so, the referendum vote was to leave. Then, once the reality of leaving has become far more clear, to everyone's surprise, there is still a significant number of people voting for Farage and I think even more surprising, 63% of voters did not bother to turn out. That tells me the majority do not care!!! Even after all this chaos. |
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3rd June 2019, 02:06 AM | #2442 |
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I disagree, the current position of the UK on the EU political spectrum has nothing to do with the validity or otherwise of the left wing arguments for leaving the EU.
I personally agree that the arguments are largely spurious, but as I understand it they boil down to:
Interestingly, the first point is also one that some of my more left-wing German colleagues echo. |
3rd June 2019, 02:18 AM | #2443 |
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Scotland's voting over the past 20 years showed that whilst there was growing support for independence, it was not enough to tip a referendum. But after the referendum, the SNP did really well. The Scots voted over a series of elections to show they were happy in the Union, but want more devolved power.
Has the same thing happened in the UK over the EU? Has there been growing discontent with the EU, but rather then leave outright, the UK want to to reposition itself so that it has more controls, but is still a member. The problem is that unlike Scottish voting, which achieved a compromise of still in the Union, but with lots more powers, the UK voting cannot get that compromise with the EU. |
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3rd June 2019, 02:23 AM | #2444 |
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....not least because the UK already has a very sweet deal with the EU in terms of both the financial settlement and the range of opt-outs we have.
Then again, given the inaccuracy of the anti-EU propaganda, it's very likely that many things that Brexiteers are railing against are imaginary. There is however a point at which the special requests that the Brexiteers want are fundamentally incompatible with membership. |
3rd June 2019, 02:44 AM | #2445 |
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Again, though, that's overstating the numbers.
The Faragists got less than a third of the vote. As for the low turnout, it was an EU election and, though many talked of it being a proxy-referendum it really was never going to be any such thing. There were a number of vox pops, mostly younger people, who said that they wouldn't be voting, but if it was a referendum they would. Numpties, but don't assume they don't care about leaving the EU. |
3rd June 2019, 02:48 AM | #2446 |
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The first one is accurate, the four freedoms (free flow of goods, services, capital and people/workers) have more to do with globalisation than they do with protecting individuals' rights. They allow firms to compete freely across the continent, unburdened by different local legislation, tariffs, standards and such.
However the main effect this does is preventing an unprofitable business to keep charging more for an inferior service or product due to government interference. Unified minimum standards ensure a level playing field in all aspects. The consumer benefits not because the product has been deregulated but because the regulations are harmonious across a huge swath of market. It's a globalist agenda all right - but globalist agenda services the individual too. Not a often as it does the capitalist maybe, but it's a myth individuals are left out by default. This is why the argument is spurious in the first place. It's true, but it's flawed and tells us nothing. The other two arguments don't even reach the point "flawed". Corbyn desperately wants Britain to engage in manifestly unprofitable economic activity. That's exactly the same as Trump with his inane coal subsidies. Kind of puts it in perspective, doesn't it? The influx of citizens in UK can be managed by the UK under existing EU law. For the argument to have any merit at all, UK would have to be overwhelmed by said migrants while adhering to all (or at least the majority) of permissable EU legislation. In order for it to be an argument worth considering it would also have to ask for and be denied the necessary changes to stem the flow. Until that happens this is not an argument for Brexit. It may be a statement of fact that "UK is overwhelmed by EU migrants", but leaving the EU is not a way (let alone the way) to solve the issue. It may also be that certain British businesses are unprofitable due to four freedoms - but they will be unprofitable regaradless of British membership in the EU, but British subsidies and tariffs may keep them afloat by allowing them to keep selling an inferior product at higher price. McHrozni |
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3rd June 2019, 03:04 AM | #2447 |
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3rd June 2019, 03:06 AM | #2448 |
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It was a pity Change UK seemed to roll over and die during the European election. I was hoping they'd become a new force in politics, serving the oft-neglected centre.
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3rd June 2019, 03:41 AM | #2449 |
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I had exactly zero hope and expectation for Change UK. They lacked infrastructure, funding and a compliant set of media outlets to get their message across (in stark contrast to the Brexit Party). As I feared, Change UK served only to split (marginally) the pro-Remain vote.
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3rd June 2019, 04:23 AM | #2450 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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3rd June 2019, 04:55 AM | #2451 |
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I posted on Quora recently that many Leavers seem to act in a very similar way to conspiracy theorists. They are happy to tolerate numerous incompatible forms of Brexit amongst themselves, in a way that do not tolerate the opinions of Remainers. They also cherry-pick, misrepresent, or simply lie about the "evidence" of the supposed ills of the EU.
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3rd June 2019, 09:04 AM | #2452 |
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3rd June 2019, 10:34 AM | #2453 |
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Indeed, and I said the same thing some pages back (ie that Brexit voters are much more comitted to actually getting out and voting. They are frankly all furious and absolutely insistent about it (just won't take "No" for an answer). But if it comes to another referendum, or a General Election, then even based on them getting 31% of the vote in those EU elections, Farage & Brexit might still easily lose by 5%-10% (or at least, I hope so!). |
3rd June 2019, 01:35 PM | #2454 |
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Just want to comment on that bit about the four freedoms. The claim you cite (not one you make) is maddening to me, in that it is a transparent smear tactic. Once again, Brexiteers get things 180º backwards.
The four freedoms are the embodiment of what a "single market" is. They pertain, without mention or worry, across, say, the entire 50 states in the US. Added to the real (yet reasonable) barriers non-EU members face, this is a net gain in economic terms and cannot reasonably be associated with anything greater than intra-community flows. So: very local, among neighbors, and not global. Superficially similar to globalisation, but a different animal, with some traits of protectionism. The advantage of common product, procurement and safety regulations is enormous, offering a market potential no one member state could hope to achieve or impose. This is not just "trade", it is market creation. You do not get that with one-off trade deals among would-be bullies. Boggles the mind and bugs me to no end. Lies, lies, lies and more lies. |
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3rd June 2019, 03:02 PM | #2455 |
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Brexit latest: It is now ‘patriotic’ to side with a foreign politician when he slags off the elected mayor of the English capital.
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3rd June 2019, 04:13 PM | #2456 |
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3rd June 2019, 09:53 PM | #2457 |
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3rd June 2019, 11:10 PM | #2458 |
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3rd June 2019, 11:13 PM | #2459 |
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Yes.
I wonder when did building pan-national superstates become such an anathema to the British. Free Northumbria! McHrozni |
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3rd June 2019, 11:28 PM | #2460 |
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I'll agree with that view. I had a 'discussion' (an exchange that didn't merit the title) on Quora with a couple of Leavers recently, both claimed the solution to the Irish border question was easy and cited a document of 14 MPs (mostly CON/DUP vermin) claiming it could be done easily by the end of 2020, if there was political will to do so.
When I asked them whether or not the WA should be ratified they recoiled immediately, claiming it bound UK to EU forever. When I pointed out their opinions are mutually exclusive, if Irish border question is easily solvable by technology the Backstop should be a non-issue, they stopped responding altogether. Not that technology is a magical wand that solves the Irish border question. As the report noted the solution requires a lot of goodwill by EU and Ireland, probably a tolerance of a copious amount of smuggling too. Nigh-on impossible in the best of times, when UK had a lot of political capital and goodwill to call upon. McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 12:09 AM | #2461 |
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Well that's certainly the anti-EU propaganda that's been put out by Eurosceptics since the UK joined back in the 1970's.
Of course the EU wants greater cooperation between the members of the European Union for economic, political, security and diplomatic reasons but so far there's no indication that there will be a single state from mainstream politicians. Even contentious things like an "EU army" turn out to be something completely different to the claims of the Eurosceptics. Instead of the threatened continent-wide martial force in which individual countries lose their own sovereignty and armed forces, it's an agreement between two countries (France and Germany) to invest some money in improving interoperability between there forces. |
4th June 2019, 01:01 AM | #2462 |
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No, I disagree. A unified, single pan-European state is the main goal of the EU. The current crop knows this is unachievable in the present generation, but they know that to be the end goal - and agree with it.
What those against it do is claim the EU is doing that and leaving at it, as if it were an argument against the EU in on itself. Why would it be? That's how UK came into existence. So did France, Italy, Spain, Germany and Sweden and I could go on (Greece anyone?). Has anyone checked the American national motto and wondered why does it say "out of many, one"? USA won independence in 1783 but the first president was inaugurated in 1789, how come? Because for the first six years after independence, there was no USA. There was a collection of 13 loosely connected but independent colonies. I don't see many calls in USA to go back to that organization. They seem fine with their pan-American superstate. A few wannabe separatists aside in Catalonia and elsewhere few consider being part of a superstate an inherenly bad thing - and said separatists do so based on in no small part on bad blood in the past. Why would a pan-European state be a bad thing? I have yet to find an Euroskeptic who manages to answer that question with something that would make remote sense. McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 01:20 AM | #2463 |
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I am concerned that by leaving the EU, where the UK has a vote/veto/controls and being dependent on WTO rules, which the UK has no vote/veto/controls, we are losing Sovereignty.
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4th June 2019, 01:25 AM | #2464 |
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That's an interesting point of view and one which I'm sure isn't shared by Brexiteers.
Remember that signing up to a series of standards, the overwhelming majority of which we have helped define and have agreed to (and those which we haven't, we likely have an opt-out or veto), is an unacceptable loss of sovereignty but committing to a trade deal with the US where they have the whip-hand is the UK celebrating its sovereignty post-Brexit. |
4th June 2019, 01:48 AM | #2465 |
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There is one, and only one, country that puts Soverignty over all. It has no international treaties to speak of, it follows no standards other than those of their own.
It's called North Korea (and sometimes Best Korea). The practical upshot of this is they're the pawns of their much bigger neighbor, China, that keeps them alive and the ruling dynasty in power for their own ends. Absolute soverignty always was a myth. EU does more to improve soverignty than it costs - whatever soverignty the voter loses in his or her own country they also gain by having soverignty over a much larger swath of countries. It works exactly the same in a household, village, town, county, country, nation or pan-national union. With each step you trade some of your soverignty for a small part of soverignty over others. The net result is paradoxically positive, because it allows for far more coordination and cooperation between what are still individuals. McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 01:57 AM | #2466 |
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Brexiters just hate the EU. They are happy following the rules of the WTO, UN, Commonwealth, NATO, IMF, OECD and the numerous other organisations the UK is in, despite those memberships causing similar restrictions on sovereignty regarding trade, immigration etc. We cannot even hunt for whales any more because of the IWO.
The only one we got a vote and proper representation in, is the EU and we are leaving it. |
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4th June 2019, 02:20 AM | #2467 |
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4th June 2019, 02:28 AM | #2468 |
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It really isn't. There may be (some, very few) people within the EU who would like that but the EU isn't anything other than a group of member states none of whom want to, plan to or would ever genuinely consider giving up their status as independent, sovereign nations.
Some of those members have fought long and hard to get their independent sovereign nation status. They aren't giving it up any time soon. |
4th June 2019, 02:45 AM | #2469 |
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Have you seen a historic map of Europe lately?
This is Germany. This was France. This became Spain. Italy. What do you think put "United" in the United Kingdom of Netherlands? UK is not unique either. This is England by the way, plus the five or six Welsh kingdoms. There was opposition to that too, but it was overcome. EU is just the next iteration of the process that has been going on since the high middle ages. Democratically this time around. Yay! It's the second time it happened, after USA was created six years after the 13 colonies won their independence from UK. McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 03:25 AM | #2470 |
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4th June 2019, 03:41 AM | #2471 |
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4th June 2019, 03:49 AM | #2472 |
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4th June 2019, 03:51 AM | #2473 |
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4th June 2019, 04:10 AM | #2474 |
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Yeah.
Great Britain was created peacefully, through a political process, a unification of two kingdoms with centuries of animosity between them. Sure in the preceeding centuries England conquered Wales and Ireland with fire and blood. What of it? The final stage was a peaceful political process, indicating it is possible to unify countries in that manner, even in England. Something very similar happened in Spain, Germany and France. Italy was the most violent of the bunch - in no small part due to overwhelming foreign influence in Italy at the time. That's the five largest and most important countries in Europe, all came together from smaller, fragmented parts. Parts that were fiercly independent, parts that spoke different languagues, many still do. Some did it in a more violent manner, some with a combination of politics and violence, Spain was the most political and least violent IIRC. But going one step further and unify the whole Europe politically with a peaceful process is supposed to be obviously wrong and pig-headed and silly and would never work and ... Why? McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 04:15 AM | #2475 |
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No one claims it is not possible to expand your borders with violence. That's a given. I'm claiming it is possible to unify countries with a peaceful political process too.
Union of Scotland and England into UK is a prime example. So was unification of Castillie, Leon and Aragon, or the creation of the USA. Did you ever wonder why did the 13 colonies win independence in 1783 but they didn't have the first president until 1789? Because the idea of a unified USA wasn't around in 1783. They wanted to have separate, independent colonies at first. It took the Americans a few years to realize that was a Bad idea, so they opted for a unified state instead - and did so peacefully. McHrozni |
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4th June 2019, 04:23 AM | #2476 |
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Good idea, taken slowly and one step at a time, maybe over a century. The UK, an aggregate of several nations, took longer.
*** Democracy based on universal values still must be centered on communities of perceived shared interest to create coherent governance structures. Nothing undemocratic per se about the EU, but the claims made by Brexiteers in that regard are, indeed, incoherent. What is failing, and oddly so, is the perception of shared interest. Explains the constant anti-German and anti-Brussels messaging Putin loves to stir up to keep the continent bickering and divided. As an aside, list the times Anglo nations have faced major issues in the last few centuries that were not resolved by colonialism, outright land grabs, or, down under, violent offshore prisons for feared migrants.... Yeah, I know! Hard to do. Explains the missing mental kit in the English-speaking world with regard to dealing peacefully with having less money or bling than one might wish, and tendency to go all bully when lacking one's "just deserts in life". Perhaps some deep soul-searching following WWII was as needed among the "good" guys as anyone else. |
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4th June 2019, 04:38 AM | #2477 |
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And that would be wrong there too. See they were united by the articles of confederacy before then as a single political unit, then wrote up a new constitution. The writing of a new constitution doesn't change the violent origin.
I guess the Louisiana purchase might be counted as non violent if we simply ignore the actual inhabitants. |
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4th June 2019, 04:41 AM | #2478 |
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4th June 2019, 04:44 AM | #2479 |
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4th June 2019, 05:11 AM | #2480 |
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