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Old 4th June 2019, 05:12 AM   #2481
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A hell of a lot of those countries weren't on it until quite recently.
Yeah.

How many of those descended from democratic states and aren't a result of a Russian invasion?

Here's a quick answer: Zero.

Your point? Well, unifying the continent isn't going to be easy or straightforward. What of it?

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Old 4th June 2019, 05:19 AM   #2482
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Europe had violent origins too. I'm not sure where you're getting at.

McHrozni
That all of these supposedly sovereign nations were built by conquest of smaller nations. Sometimes these stick like say Holland and Germany, and other times they do not like Czechoslovakia. As a long political process of unification this is fundamentally different from previous building of nations.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:21 AM   #2483
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Good idea, taken slowly and one step at a time, maybe over a century.
That's exactly what EU has been doing for over half a century now. I suspect it will take at least another century to become a proper, unified, functioning state. It could go quicker, but the wreckers are everywhere. If we manage to achieve a fiscal union in the next couple of decades I'll be happy.

Quote:
Democracy based on universal values still must be centered on communities of perceived shared interest to create coherent governance structures.
Yes. There is nothing special about the state, it's just the highest current level of community with any sort of real power. Except for international unions. And the UN.
There is no law of physics that is to be broken if several countries unify into one, peacefully or otherwise. If you want the union to be democratic you need it to be joined peacefully sure. But this is doable and was done in the past. EU is trying something new, it is trying to join up a conglomerate of several nation-states whose history turned the world upside down, many of whom have more pride than common sense. This makes the progress difficult.

So? We don't do it because it's easy. We do it because it's better that way. The vision of divided Europe, with tall border walls and animosity between nations is a vision of Europe dominated by competing interests of USA, China, Russia and possibly India. The vision offers nothing a European would like. The alternative is a unified Europe, which horrifies, just horrifies those that wish it ill for their own selfish self-interest. I fail to see why keeping their interests above those of all others would be a good thing for an European or Europe.

If one of the naysayers can explain, I'd be grateful

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Old 4th June 2019, 09:06 AM   #2484
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If the banks were unprofitable because they were outcompeted by foreign banks then no, absolutely not.

McHrozni
They are multinational.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:39 AM   #2485
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

Your point? Well, unifying the continent isn't going to be easy or straightforward. What of it?

McHrozni
That almost NOBODY wants it or is interested in it. Who is going to make it happen?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:54 AM   #2486
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That almost NOBODY wants it or is interested in it. Who is going to make it happen?
Exactly Europe's time as a leader is over it needs to accept its status as a group of nobodies to be pushed around by the real players in the world. Once they accept their own worthlessness everything will be better.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:47 PM   #2487
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Exactly. The EU wants to convert a group of independent sovereign countries into the United States of Europe.
An excellent idea. Let's get on with it and leave the idiot Brits to become a US or Russian satrap.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:48 PM   #2488
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes.

I wonder when did building pan-national superstates become such an anathema to the British.

Free Northumbria!

McHrozni
His opposition does seem a tad hypocritical.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:00 PM   #2489
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Nigel Farage says he will not attend a committee investigating whether he broke European Parliament rules by accepting funding from Leave campaigner Arron Banks.

The Brexit Party leader has said he did not declare the £450,000 sum to the assembly because at the time, he was about to leave politics and had been seeking a new life in the US.

He said he had only been given 24 hours' notice to attend a meeting of the committee on Wednesday, which he branded a "kangaroo court".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48516348

Arron Banks has said he had "willingly helped Farage and was honoured to do so", adding: "This was all designed to help Nigel get out of politics."

So it would seem Farage stiffed Banks for a lot of cash.

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Old 4th June 2019, 02:39 PM   #2490
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brexit latest: It is now ‘patriotic’ to side with a foreign politician when he slags off the elected mayor of the English capital.
Edit: My reply is better suited to the 'Trump comes to London' thread.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:00 PM   #2491
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Exactly. The EU wants to convert a group of independent sovereign countries into the United States of Europe.
Since that is such a terrible disaster, you are clearly in favour of scottish independance, right?
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:36 PM   #2492
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That almost NOBODY wants it or is interested in it.
Have you checked the European election results recently?

Over 72% of the seats went to parties who agree Europe should become a proper state someday down the line. Not too soon, but not in the unfantomably different future either - a 2-5 decades or so, other questions depending.

72% is not a definition of "nobody" I'm familiar with.

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Old 4th June 2019, 10:41 PM   #2493
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That all of these supposedly sovereign nations were built by conquest of smaller nations.
In part by conquest of smaller nations and in part by a more peaceful political process - England-Scotland and Castillie-Aragon being the two most famous.

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Old 4th June 2019, 11:36 PM   #2494
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Exactly. The EU wants to convert a group of independent sovereign countries into the United States of Europe.
The EU is a collection of independent sovereign countries. It would not be the EU converting them rather them choosing to convert themselves. I know you don't have any evidence that those countries want to cede their sovereignty in the way that US states have. It is yet another brexiteer lie. A bit like you one you made about not posting again in this thread.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:37 PM   #2495
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Have you checked the European election results recently?

Over 72% of the seats went to parties who agree Europe should become a proper state someday down the line. Not too soon, but not in the unfantomably different future either - a 2-5 decades or so, other questions depending.

72% is not a definition of "nobody" I'm familiar with.

McHrozni
Not quite - 28% of the seats went to parties which identify as Eurosceptic and either want the EU to be disbanded altogether (ENF, EFDD) or rolled back considerably (ECR). I'm not sure where one would put the GUE/NGL on that continuum, probably on the rolling back side of things.

Assuming that the rest want a European super-state is the exclusion of a pretty large middle comprising keeping the same level of integration and cooperation or increasing the level of integration but stopping (far) short of a European super-state.

The UK Labour Party is a member of the S&D grouping and as their Brexit position shows, they have little appetite for a European super-state. The LibDems are a member of the ALDE grouping and are possibly the most Europhile UK party and don't want a Euro superstate..
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:28 AM   #2496
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not quite - 28% of the seats went to parties which identify as Eurosceptic and either want the EU to be disbanded altogether (ENF, EFDD) or rolled back considerably (ECR). I'm not sure where one would put the GUE/NGL on that continuum, probably on the rolling back side of things.
ALDE+EPP+S&D+Green/EFA have 68% of the total. All four groups are pro-union. That's a 2/3 supermajority and includes the results in UK. If you cut out the softest supporters (Greens) you still have 62% support for an ever closer union. This is just the result of the largest three parties who all support further integration, which has support beyond those three.

Quote:
Assuming that the rest want a European super-state is the exclusion of a pretty large middle comprising keeping the same level of integration and cooperation or increasing the level of integration but stopping (far) short of a European super-state.
EU is currently in an unstable state. It must either integrate further or roll back considerably. The results show a clear supermajorty for further integration exists continent-wide. Now, granted, I'm sure not all are on board of full integration at this time. Neither am I, the common European identity is too weak for full European superstate at this time.

With further integration and another generation however that becomes the obvious end result I reckon between 20 and 50 years from now. Unless something Bad happens EU will have us think what is the distinction between a union of soverign states and a soverign federal state within a decade or two.
I'm sure we'll find that border is fuzzy and can't be determined to any great precision. No, I do not envision the United States of Europe being declared anytime soon if that's what you're asking. Instead what will happen is further integration in small steps and occasional larger ones (fiscal union), each of whom will stop far short of declaring a superstate. After a while and looking back you won't be able to tell at which point did the EU become a superstate.

It's evolution all over again. You're the same species as your parents and your parents are the same species as their grandparents ... do this long enough and you find your great-great-...-great grandfather was a fish and so was his mate. The plan is to do the same with EU.

Quote:
The UK Labour Party is a member of the S&D grouping and as their Brexit position shows, they have little appetite for a European super-state. The LibDems are a member of the ALDE grouping and are possibly the most Europhile UK party and don't want a Euro superstate..
UK is a tad special, yes. If you cut the UK out of the results you get close to a 75% majority for an eventual European superstate.

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Old 5th June 2019, 12:54 AM   #2497
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The EU is a collection of independent sovereign countries. It would not be the EU converting them rather them choosing to convert themselves. I know you don't have any evidence that those countries want to cede their sovereignty in the way that US states have.
Ceding soverignty is a misnomer, it implies you lose something. The said countries transfer a portion of their soverignty to European institutions yes, but those institutions are every bit as much theirs as their home country was. You're just a part of a larger group of people, with all the ups and downs this brings.

The voter doesn't lose any soverignty at all. The power of national politicians decrease, but the politicians being soverign has gone out of fashion in the 1790s.

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Old 5th June 2019, 12:59 AM   #2498
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
ALDE+EPP+S&D+Green/EFA have 68% of the total. All four groups are pro-union. That's a 2/3 supermajority and includes the results in UK. If you cut out the softest supporters (Greens) you still have 62% support for an ever closer union. This is just the result of the largest three parties who all support further integration, which has support beyond those three.
Not wanting to dissolve the EU or roll it back considerably != wanting further integration

Wanting further integration != wanting a European superstate
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:19 AM   #2499
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yeah.

How many of those descended from democratic states and aren't a result of a Russian invasion?

Here's a quick answer: Zero.
All the former Yugoslavian ones, so I make that 5(?).
(Haven't looked at a map to count them)

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Nigel Farage says he will not attend a committee investigating whether he broke European Parliament rules by accepting funding from Leave campaigner Arron Banks.
"This committee would better spend its time investigating the waste of public money by well-known MEPs," (Farage) added.

I assume he was taking the mick with that line?
How much has he cost the public as an MEP that never bothers to turn up?
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:09 AM   #2500
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
All the former Yugoslavian ones, so I make that 5(?).
(Haven't looked at a map to count them)
Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia is six, Kosovo would be the seventh, if it's a country. However Yugoslavia was one party socialist dictatorship, not a democracy. The country fell apart and some pieces implemented democracy to go alongside independence, unambigiously discounting all but one. Montenegro is indeed a "maybe", if you count Serbia and Montenegro in 2006 to be democratic, or one country. Both are in the grey zone and it can be argued both are false.

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Old 5th June 2019, 03:15 AM   #2501
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not wanting to dissolve the EU or roll it back considerably != wanting further integration
Actually it kinda is. EU right now is in a manifestly unstable state, it has to move somewhere on fiscal union and immigration, first and foremost. There are two ways this can be achieved, either further integration or rolling it back. Not wanting to roll it back leaves you with exactly one option.

Plus most of ALDE, EPP and S&D explicitly supports further integration, just not in what order, which areas to prioritize or which mechanisms to use.

Quote:
Wanting further integration != wanting a European superstate
Yes, yes. And wanting the common market was not wanting a common currency. Having a union of steel and coal producing countries was not wanting a common market either.

As time passes by it will become clear further integration is the proper way to go and it will happen, even if the current crop of politicians doesn't see it like that yet. They want further integration and that makes an eventual superstate inevitable.

I see it as a good thing.

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Old 5th June 2019, 03:39 AM   #2502
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
All the former Yugoslavian ones, so I make that 5(?).
(Haven't looked at a map to count them)
Except that Yugoslavia was never a democracy but a dictatorship.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:37 AM   #2503
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
However Yugoslavia was one party socialist dictatorship, not a democracy.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except that Yugoslavia was never a democracy but a dictatorship.
I misinterpreted "(h)ow many of those descended from democratic states and aren't a result of a Russian invasion?"

I read the "and" as an "or"...
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:39 AM   #2504
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Ooh, got one.
Czechoslovakia!


They were a fairly functional democracy for 3 years...

So that would be 2!
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:09 AM   #2505
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I misinterpreted "(h)ow many of those descended from democratic states and aren't a result of a Russian invasion?"

I read the "and" as an "or"...
Ah, ok

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Old 5th June 2019, 05:17 AM   #2506
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Ooh, got one.
Czechoslovakia!


They were a fairly functional democracy for 3 years...

So that would be 2!
Two maybes, yeah. It depends on a definition of a functional democracy a bit (WP: Members of Czechoslovakia's parliament, divided along national lines, barely cooperated enough to pass the law officially separating the two nations in late 1992) and whether or not you consider the context behind that divorce. Slovaks had been a tad of a second class citizens for decades in the dictatorial Czechoslovakia (and prior), which contributed to their wishes of an independent state when they got democracy.

So yeah, the number in fact may not be zero. Indeed, it could be as high as two.

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Old 5th June 2019, 10:06 AM   #2507
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Sir Edward Leigh MP Tweets


I am disappointed by the lack of radical ideas coming out of this leadership race. Here’s my programme for the new government:

There are only two choices given the EU won’t change the deal and there’s no chance of Parliament passing it. One is cancel Brexit: an intolerable denial of democracy. The other is leave without a deal on WTO terms on 31 October. But MPs, assisted by the Speaker, will block this.

Solution: End this failed session immediately within hours of a new government and prorogue Parliament. Leave the EU on 31 October. If we don’t, we are betraying our supporters and ensuring a total wipe-out of the Conservative party.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:07 AM   #2508
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I like how he thinks stopping Brexit is an "intolerable denial of democracy"

But that "within hours of a new government" scrapping Parliament is the democratic thing to do.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:12 AM   #2509
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sir Edward Leigh MP Tweets


I am disappointed by the lack of radical ideas coming out of this leadership race. Here’s my programme for the new government:

There are only two choices given the EU won’t change the deal and there’s no chance of Parliament passing it. One is cancel Brexit: an intolerable denial of democracy. The other is leave without a deal on WTO terms on 31 October. But MPs, assisted by the Speaker, will block this.

Solution: End this failed session immediately within hours of a new government and prorogue Parliament. Leave the EU on 31 October. If we don’t, we are betraying our supporters and ensuring a total wipe-out of the Conservative party.


Well, I suspect he thinks the 74 grand a year he receives from being Non-Executive Director of Europe Arab Bank is safe from the consequences of his chosen course of action.

(https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2016/03/...h-second-jobs/)
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #2510
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Sir Edward Leigh MP Tweets


I am disappointed by the lack of radical ideas coming out of this leadership race. Here’s my programme for the new government:

There are only two choices given the EU won’t change the deal and there’s no chance of Parliament passing it. One is cancel Brexit: an intolerable denial of democracy. The other is leave without a deal on WTO terms on 31 October. But MPs, assisted by the Speaker, will block this.

Solution: End this failed session immediately within hours of a new government and prorogue Parliament. Leave the EU on 31 October. If we don’t, we are betraying our supporters and ensuring a total wipe-out of the Conservative party.
The only thing he really cares about.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:47 AM   #2511
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Now we know where the 350 million a week for the NHS will go. To america!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...eQPYYy4eodMguQ


"Donald Trump has declared he wants the NHS to be on the table in any US-UK trade deal and refused to meet the “negative” Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who pledged to oppose US corporations taking over the health service with every breath in his body.

On the second day of his state visit, during which he has been hosted by the Queen and Theresa May, the US president set out his ambitions for a “phenomenal” post-Brexit trade deal with the UK"
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:08 AM   #2512
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More "Brexit dividend" for Wales ?

Quote:
Ford Europe has called union leaders from Bridgend's engine plant to its Essex headquarters on Thursday.

There are renewed concerns for the factory's future - it opened nearly 40 years ago and employs 1,700 workers.

It comes just months after Ford said it was cutting its Welsh workforce by 1,000, with 370 going in a first phase.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48533790

Part of the global automotive sector issues but Brexit isn't helping..
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:27 AM   #2513
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now we know where the 350 million a week for the NHS will go. To america!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...eQPYYy4eodMguQ


"Donald Trump has declared he wants the NHS to be on the table in any US-UK trade deal and refused to meet the “negative” Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who pledged to oppose US corporations taking over the health service with every breath in his body.

On the second day of his state visit, during which he has been hosted by the Queen and Theresa May, the US president set out his ambitions for a “phenomenal” post-Brexit trade deal with the UK"
He means phenomenal for the USA. You could almost see him rubbing his tiny hands with glee at the thought of a no-deal Brexit and the UK begging the USA for trade.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:29 AM   #2514
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He means phenomenal for the USA. You could almost see him rubbing his tiny hands with glee at the thought of a no-deal Brexit and the UK begging the USA for trade.
Exactly getting you all to finally pay a fair price for medication.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:24 PM   #2515
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly getting you all to finally pay a fair price for medication.
We get it free, apart form minor prescription charges. In Finland medical care for even the most serious conditions are capped at circa €700 pa regardless of wealth. Choke on that, Yanks!
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:36 PM   #2516
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We get it free, apart form minor prescription charges. In Finland medical care for even the most serious conditions are capped at circa €700 pa regardless of wealth. Choke on that, Yanks!
Check out my signature - The NHS costs the British Government a lower percentage of GDP than public healthcare costs the US Government.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:31 PM   #2517
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Trump leaves the UK goes to Ireland and says he has spoken to people in the UK who are keen on Brexit and he wishes Ireland good luck with their wall and border. Fair play he understands Brexit better than the majority of the Tory leadership candidates.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:47 PM   #2518
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2016: ‘An extra £350m a week for the NHS.’

2019: The NHS is ‘on the table’ for trade agreements.

And yet there are still people who voted Leave who deny they were conned.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:54 PM   #2519
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Two maybes, yeah. It depends on a definition of a functional democracy a bit (WP: Members of Czechoslovakia's parliament, divided along national lines, barely cooperated enough to pass the law officially separating the two nations in late 1992) and whether or not you consider the context behind that divorce. Slovaks had been a tad of a second class citizens for decades in the dictatorial Czechoslovakia (and prior), which contributed to their wishes of an independent state when they got democracy.

So yeah, the number in fact may not be zero. Indeed, it could be as high as two.

McHrozni
Bolded sentence is simply wrong on all levels. That is just a lie perpetuated by ultranationalists like Mečiár (so he could get more power for corruption) or by certain Tiso.

Truth is that if it weren't for us, Slovaks would be speaking Hungarian and be part of Hungary and their "great" language would ben nothing more than footnote because it was barely surviving in few villages in mountains.

Their language was not only official language of Czechoslovakia, but radio and later television had number of requirements with regard to representation of Slovak language in their broadcast. And it was thought even in Czech schools.

Furthermore we sent loads of money to upgrade everything and certain necessary professions like teachers were often sent to Slovakia.

Thanks for not perpetuating that Mečiar's lie anymore.
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:40 PM   #2520
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I like how he thinks stopping Brexit is an "intolerable denial of democracy"

But that "within hours of a new government" scrapping Parliament is the democratic thing to do.
Gotta fix that "democratic deficit" somehow
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