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5th June 2019, 11:45 PM | #2521 |
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Tbh, those two things are not necessarily mutually incompatible. If US healthcare companies manage to get their claws into the NHS I can see costs rise, for a reduced service, so that £350m a week won't even start to cover the funding gap
There may be a minority of people with a different set of reasons for leaving the EU but to me it seems that the vast majority of Leave supporters aren't so much worried about a loss of sovereignty (they're willing to give up pretty much anything for a sweet trade deal with the US), they just don't want to have to deal with people who speak "foreign" |
6th June 2019, 03:46 AM | #2522 |
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Time and time again we come back to the reality that the majority of people who voted for Leave had simply fallen for the press and politicians' lies, and have little concept of what Brexit actually means.
I used to say that a lot of them won't truly get it until their standing in line a British airports, returning from holidays on the continent, and being incensed that they can't bring back the same amount of booze and fags as previously. Now it seem it'll be standing in A&E, being asked to cough up cash or insurance documents, bewildered that the NHS is no longer FatPoD... |
6th June 2019, 04:22 AM | #2523 |
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I doubt even then that they'll find a link to Brexit, or at least they'll not associate it with their own choices. Instead the lines will be due to the EU being big meanies to the UK post-Brexit and the fact that healthcare in the UK is now insurance-based system is some kind of exciting initiative introduced by our new BFFs from across the pond.
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6th June 2019, 10:11 PM | #2524 |
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6th June 2019, 11:49 PM | #2525 |
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7th June 2019, 12:58 AM | #2526 |
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That stat appears to be an outright lie. If not you are going to have to back it up with some manifesto pledges from elected members/parties that say what you claim.
It's a red herring anyway. How they came about doesn't matter. The fact is Latvia (for example) is not suddenly going to turn round and say 'remember how we finally got our nationhood? We want to give it away now' And there aren't a hell of a lot of examples of democratic states voting to cease to exist either are there? Not too many examples of countries gaining independence and then deciding to give it away later. The trend in Europe is to more, smaller nations. Nobody is giving away their nationhood anytime soon. In fact quite the opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ents_in_Europe The idea that wanting to be part of the EU, seeing benefit in it, even desiring to strengthen it and deepen the links is the same as wanting to see an EU superstate is simply incorrect. |
7th June 2019, 01:13 AM | #2527 |
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There is nothing to that claim. There are very few claims that can beat Brexit lies in absence of truth. You managed to find one of them. But then, outside world is pretty ignorant of us, so not that surprising. (Sadly, knowledge of outside world is not in better shape here either nowadays)
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7th June 2019, 01:42 AM | #2528 |
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A list of polls about voting intentions for Westminster (as in if there was a General Election, who would you vote for?);
https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/ Labour and the Conservatives are haemorrhaging support. The Brexit Party, Lib Dems and Greens are gaining. Change have failed to get off the ground and UKIP is dying out. |
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7th June 2019, 01:45 AM | #2529 |
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It's the combination of the seats belonging to EPP, ALDE and S&D:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_People%27s_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allian...ats_for_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progre..._and_Democrats Plus a few others who are also on board. All agree with further integration of the EU. In the long term this means a unified European superstate. Not tommorow of course, but over a longer period of time. I keep repeating this is a project that will take a long period of time because quite a few posters seem to think it's a 2020-ish project. It is not. I doubt it will happen before 2040s and it will happen in small steps, we won't even know when did we cease to be a union of states and became a state with federal subjects.
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Nation and state were never synonimous. Yes, most states are built along national lines. No, it's not a coincidence. No, it doesn't mean anything when you're discussing a union of European states (and nations, as it were).
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Just in case I didn't, it's a long term project. Many, many small steps and a few big ones (fiscal union) will slowly guide the EU towards becoming a superstate and we probably won't be able to definitively say there is any single point before which EU was a union of states and after which it was a superstate. The key here is it will take a long time yet and the progress will be nearly invisible as you live through it, did I mention this before? McHrozni |
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7th June 2019, 01:48 AM | #2530 |
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7th June 2019, 01:56 AM | #2531 |
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Peterborough by election;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48532869 Labour 31% down 17% Brexit 29% up 29% Cons 21% down 25% Lib Dem 12% up 9% I do not think Corbyn will keep up his demand for a General Election. Labour and the Cons must be seriously worried now. |
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7th June 2019, 01:58 AM | #2532 |
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Whoa. Latest poll:
Brexit party: 26% Labour: 22% Con: 17% LibDem: 16% Green: 11% UKIP, ChUK: 1% each Brutal. However it looks slightly anomalous compared to other polls. If you did a poll of polls I think Labour would come out ahead of Brexit party as the main opposition. Tories might be wiped out and LibDems could be the kingmakers of the minority government. It depends a bit on how votes are distributed. I think LibDems and Greens would take may seats representing cities while Brexit, Labour and Con would fight Hunger games over what's left. McHrozni |
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7th June 2019, 01:59 AM | #2533 |
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7th June 2019, 02:25 AM | #2534 |
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Yes, a very interesting result.
Personally, I don't think that Jeremy Corbyn will change his tune about a General Election because the alternatives are to go "full Brexit" (which he wants but doesn't want to carry the can for) or support a second referendum (which he seems to have little or no appetite for). |
7th June 2019, 02:30 AM | #2535 |
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7th June 2019, 02:41 AM | #2536 |
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I would say far worse.
Theresa May stepped willingly into a difficult position and since that moment has seemingly done everything in her power to make that situation worse. Sure she has made an absolute hash of it but she picked up a bad hand (in bridge terms 0-6 points and no particularly long suits). Jeremy Corbyn OTOH was dealt 23 points and a six card heart suit but has somehow managed to find himself in a seven clubs contract doubled and vulnerable and missing two aces |
7th June 2019, 02:46 AM | #2537 |
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This is a nationally sampled poll, and so would not necessarily reflect what happened locally in Peterborough yesterday, where it seems Labour focused on local issues and not Brexit, a good strategy seeing as the Brexit National party had no manifesto.
The opinion polls are still reflecting the protest votes for and against Brexit, but in a general election, all manifestos would be scrutinised and will again detract from Brexit issues. |
7th June 2019, 02:50 AM | #2538 |
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7th June 2019, 04:05 AM | #2539 |
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7th June 2019, 04:06 AM | #2540 |
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7th June 2019, 04:13 AM | #2541 |
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Why, in such a marginal seat with a high Brexit referendum exit result Labour managed to increase their majority by almost 13%...
I'd say Labour will have sighed with relief at the Tories being the victim of those that have switched to the Farage party. Makes a no deal even more likely. |
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7th June 2019, 04:29 AM | #2542 |
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Which is not what you originally claimed people voted for at all. It's a mile away in fact. And yes you would know very clearly because it would be a significant legal change of status.
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Since most things seem to point to smaller nations being more prosperous in general then if anything the opposite is more likely. That huge states with multiple cultures like China and India will disintegrate and fragment. Europe and Russia may well further subdivide. The USA might well survive but in the long run who knows, that is a rather unique case anyway. |
7th June 2019, 04:38 AM | #2543 |
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No doubt Corbyn thinks this is an opportunity. The no-deal vote will split between Tory and Brexit and he can charge through the middle with his no-clue strategy.
Of course all this means in reality is that the Tories will double down on delivering a Brexit as hard as they can and there will be no GE until they do so. Corbyn seems to be strangely blinkered in all of this. He can talk himself blue in the face about a GE but he isn't getting one and he seems unable to think tactically about what he should be doing instead. His strategy seems to be simply to engineer a no deal Brexit without taking the blame for it. But I don't see how that gets him elected either. |
7th June 2019, 04:50 AM | #2544 |
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7th June 2019, 05:03 AM | #2545 |
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YouGov piece, clearly prompted by Farage's "fake polls" whinge: How we design election polling questions.
It's hilarious that Farage's complaint now means that the Green Party will be included amongst the "main parties," as well as Brexit Ltd, with the result that their latest shows: Con 18% Lab 20% Lib Dem 20% SNP 5% Plaid Cymru 0% Brexit 26% Green 9% UKIP 1% WEP 0% Change UK 0% |
7th June 2019, 06:56 AM | #2546 |
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Homeopathic leadership.
In the same way that a treatment with diluted water might do less harm than bloodletting or other quack interventions, his strategy of doing nothing until the Tories deliver Brexit and take the blame for it tells us little about his capacity to actually achieve anything. It does seem to be gaining him something of a reputation for not achieving anything though. |
7th June 2019, 07:05 AM | #2547 |
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So.
The next Tory leader. What do we reckon the odds are of them not actually becoming PM? The more I think about it, the more likely it feels to me...though I strongly suspect that's wishful thinking on my part! |
7th June 2019, 04:36 PM | #2548 |
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big sigh..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...cial-occasions here we go... a competition for who can come across as the edgiest, to appeal to every demographic. |
7th June 2019, 05:27 PM | #2549 |
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So whilst Donald Tusk warned the UK it needed to concentrate on the Brexit issue as time is very tight, what do we do? We arse about with Conservative Party Leader elections of interest only to the Conservative Party which won't be decided until July and then there will be the great summer recess all over August.
Raab wants to prorogue Parliament as soon as it is realised Britain has done precisely nothing at all in heeding Tusk's admonition. Bercow wants to stand in his way. Gove wants to give free settlement to EU citizens. Farage wants to join in the 'negotiations' (= a no deal) even though he has no members of parliament and therefore does not get to vote on the issue. Come on UK: get your act together. |
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7th June 2019, 05:31 PM | #2550 |
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7th June 2019, 05:34 PM | #2551 |
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That was but a few days ago, and now:
But no doubt the dreamers will keep telling me most people want to remain. You Pommies are going to wake up one morning to find the once-mighty Pound Sterling is almost keeping pace with the Rouble. |
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7th June 2019, 11:22 PM | #2552 |
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...and according to the polls, that seems still to be the case. Remain has a 5%-10% lead in the polls. That doesn't transfer neatly into party support because there are a number of confounding factors including Remain supporting Labour voters still supporting Labour in the (forlorn IMO) opinion that Labour will push for a second referendum, people supporting Labour or the Conservatives even though they disagree with their Brexit platform because they like the rest of their policies and people who would continue to support Labour or the Conservatives simply out of habit.
One of the reasons why Leavers don't want a second referendum is that, with a little more knowledge about some of the big issues, enough people might switch to Remain and their once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to line their pockets at the country's expense will have passed. Well that may help UK exports, but as we run a large trade deficit, that does not bode well for domestic inflation... |
8th June 2019, 12:42 AM | #2553 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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8th June 2019, 01:25 AM | #2554 |
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Apropos of nothing and just because I think I'm unusual in this, I have no objections to a European superstate.... Preferably as a precursor to an 'Earth state'. Then we can stop all the petty bickering about imaginary lines, focus on running a tidy planet and indeed exploring and colonising other planets.
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8th June 2019, 01:27 AM | #2555 |
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8th June 2019, 01:31 AM | #2556 |
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Heard a comment on the radio this week that summed up the stupidity of Brexit voters. When asked how he thought we'd do splitting from the EU, this complete cockwomble replied 'We'll stuff them - we beat them in '45 and '66, we'll beat them now'.
Some people really shouldn't be allowed to vote.... |
8th June 2019, 01:33 AM | #2557 |
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Oooh, well happy the auto censor allows 'cockwomble'!
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8th June 2019, 02:22 AM | #2558 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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8th June 2019, 07:11 AM | #2559 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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8th June 2019, 01:25 PM | #2560 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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