IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Closed Thread
Old 24th June 2019, 12:58 AM   #2881
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's one thing reporting (anonymously) to the police if you're worried that someone may have been hurt. It's a completely different thing to record the conversation and give the recording to a national newspaper.
Why? The conversation was loud enough to be heard in a neighboring flat. This is by definition a very public conversation, almost a public speech really.

Installing a hidden microphone would be different, recording a conversation that doesn't require more than a smartphone app in your own home isn't that controversial.

Quote:
Note the story is now that they only contacted the newspaper after the police had already informed them that no one had been harmed. Simply a smear campaign by anti-tory and anti-brexit newspapers aided and abetted by hateful neighbours.
I'm not sure a "smear campaign" applies here, "dose or reality" seems much more appropriate.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 02:34 AM   #2882
Samson
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,941
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Why? The conversation was loud enough to be heard in a neighboring flat. This is by definition a very public conversation, almost a public speech really.

Installing a hidden microphone would be different, recording a conversation that doesn't require more than a smartphone app in your own home isn't that controversial.



I'm not sure a "smear campaign" applies here, "dose or reality" seems much more appropriate.

McHrozni
Just missing from the debate is the illusion of privacy in a high walled garden, where one may be annoyed if one regretfully finds a neighbour always had a recording device always running.
Reductio ad absurdem, but is there a difference?
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 02:58 AM   #2883
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Just missing from the debate is the illusion of privacy in a high walled garden, where one may be annoyed if one regretfully finds a neighbour always had a recording device always running.
Reductio ad absurdem, but is there a difference?
Yes.

Gardens don't come with a roof but more importantly, the neighbor didn't have a recording device always running. He switched one on in order to record an incident that might result in someone getting injured or killed.

If you're in a high-walled garden and get in a shouting match that ends in gunshots, getting recorded by a negihbor isn't a violation of your privacy. No matter what happened, even if the shots were blanks fired to spice up the wild make-up copulation.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:18 AM   #2884
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
The "concerned neighbour" didn't use the recording for giving evidence to the police. Instead (s)he gave (or sold?) it to a left-wing anti-brexit national newspaper.

The neighbourly thing to have done, after being informed by the police that no one was hurt and they were taking no further action, would have been to delete the recording.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 06:34 AM   #2885
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 16,340
Boris has made this election about personality. He's refused debates and basically said it just takes confidence and personality to get the Brexit people are said to want. If he makes it about his personality he can hardly complain (but of course he will) if his personality is then discussed.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 06:40 AM   #2886
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
"personality" is not the same thing as "private life".
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 06:45 AM   #2887
Mr Fied
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 654
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The "concerned neighbour" didn't use the recording for giving evidence to the police. Instead (s)he gave (or sold?) it to a left-wing anti-brexit national newspaper.

The neighbourly thing to have done, after being informed by the police that no one was hurt and they were taking no further action, would have been to delete the recording.
The neighbourly thing would be to not have arguments that are loud enough to disturb your neighbours, especially when you are running for leader of a party that prides itself on family values **cough**.
Mr Fied is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 06:49 AM   #2888
Mr Fied
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 654
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
"personality" is not the same thing as "private life".
Keep it private then, don't let your private life be heard by your neighbours. Don't forget it wasn't just the neighbours that recorded the incident that heard it.

The neighbours didn't secretly plant listening devices in Boris's flat. If it wasn't for his arguments being heard in other parts of the building no one would have heard of any of this.
Mr Fied is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 07:15 AM   #2889
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
There have been a number of similar arguments over the last few weeks apparently.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:01 AM   #2890
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
"personality" is not the same thing as "private life".
If one wants a private life one keeps the screaming arguments quiet enough to not make them public.
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:04 AM   #2891
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The "concerned neighbour" didn't use the recording for giving evidence to the police. Instead (s)he gave (or sold?) it to a left-wing anti-brexit national newspaper.

The neighbourly thing to have done, after being informed by the police that no one was hurt and they were taking no further action, would have been to delete the recording.
Why is that neighbourly? I would have thought it was quite unneighbourly, what you mean is that it was disadvantageous to one neighbour. Johnson is not the sole neighbour in that neighbourhood.
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 08:31 AM   #2892
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,415
Leave Brittney alone!!!
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 10:06 AM   #2893
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 16,340
Boris Johnson defended the Sun printing photos of Prince Harry naked. Seems he's changed his tune.



https://twitter.com/SunApology/statu...68708459802624
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 10:20 AM   #2894
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15,720
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The "concerned neighbour" didn't use the recording for giving evidence to the police. Instead (s)he gave (or sold?) it to a left-wing anti-brexit national newspaper.

The neighbourly thing to have done, after being informed by the police that no one was hurt and they were taking no further action, would have been to delete the recording.
How do you know that the recording was not played to the police, or that the police were at least not made aware of it?

How do you know the recording was not offered to various newspapers/media and it was just that the Guardian that offered to pay the most?

Can I live next to you and disturb you with my shouting, since you think it is wrong to take action to stop it from happening again?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 05:27 PM   #2895
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,215
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
How do you know that the recording was not played to the police, or that the police were at least not made aware of it?

How do you know the recording was not offered to various newspapers/media and it was just that the Guardian that offered to pay the most?

Can I live next to you and disturb you with my shouting, since you think it is wrong to take action to stop it from happening again?

Apparently the Guardian doesn't pay for stories, if profit was the motive, red tops would be the way to go.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 01:38 AM   #2896
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Apparently the Guardian doesn't pay for stories, if profit was the motive, red tops would be the way to go.
It's good to see that the right wing disinformation machine is working as designed. Instead of the story being about Boris Johnson and his intemperate behaviour, as far as most of the media (and thus most of the UK population) is concerned, the story is now about how mean Boris Johnson's partner's neighbours were to record him.

It's what they do and we on the left fall for it every time, feel obliged to engage fully to defend the story rather than just repeating what Boris has done.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 01:49 AM   #2897
Worm
Illuminator
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 3,580
Latest conspiracy theory seems to be that the photo released showing Boris and his girlfriend in the garden seemingly quite happy, after the events of the weekend, is an old shot and not reflective of their current circumstances. Something to do with his hair being too long.

I'm really not sure I care.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 01:56 AM   #2898
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,215
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's good to see that the right wing disinformation machine is working as designed. Instead of the story being about Boris Johnson and his intemperate behaviour, as far as most of the media (and thus most of the UK population) is concerned, the story is now about how mean Boris Johnson's partner's neighbours were to record him.

It's what they do and we on the left fall for it every time, feel obliged to engage fully to defend the story rather than just repeating what Boris has done.
Yes oddly they seem fine with the picture that the London Evening Standard took of the couple sitting in a garden holding hands despite the fact that it looks as though it's a pap pic.

It also doesn't show Johnson's face, the clothing they're wearing seems quite warm for the weather on the day it was supposed to be taken and Boris new "Serious Leader" haircut seems to have grown out in a day. But I'm sure that's nothing.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 05:23 PM   #2899
Andy_Ross
Penultimate Amazing
 
Andy_Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
Brian Cox
‏Verified account
@ProfBrianCox

We are about to see the installation of a scoundrel as PM by a small cabal of ageing xenophobic golf club bores who will crash us out of the EU causing irreparable damage to our country and it can’t be stopped. Think about that. Voters cannot stop Johnson and cannot stop no deal.
Andy_Ross is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 08:33 PM   #2900
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,183
Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
The neighbours were going to be put through the SoMe wringer either way, just look at the imam who had the audacity of asking Boris Johnson if he regretted stitching up Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
I misread that the first time through.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 12:33 AM   #2901
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Yes oddly they seem fine with the picture that the London Evening Standard took of the couple sitting in a garden holding hands despite the fact that it looks as though it's a pap pic.

It also doesn't show Johnson's face, the clothing they're wearing seems quite warm for the weather on the day it was supposed to be taken and Boris new "Serious Leader" haircut seems to have grown out in a day. But I'm sure that's nothing.
Here's the article with the photo:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4175156.html

They're a bit overdressed for a record-breaking heatwave, but Monday wasn't that hot in UK (~23°C in London according to AccuWeather, I can't vouch for accuracy) and they're sorrounded by nature. For an early morning chat their clothes aren't that out of the season.

BJs' hair does contrast nicely with the other photos in the article though.

A proper way to address the question would be an interview with Carrie Symonds, not a photo of her and BJ holding hands. That's where the issue ends, IMHO.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 12:42 AM   #2902
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
We go to the pub every Tuesday after band practice. The pub is in a well-to-do part of South East Wales that was party of England until 1974. The clientele is pretty mixed by age, is roughly 50/50 incomer (like me and Mrs Don) or local and whilst most incomers are well off, quite a few of the locals are agricultural labourers or have similar poorly paid jobs.

Three members of the band lean left (by US standards, we've all left the Labour Party in recent years so are considered neo-liberals by the current Labour party and hated accordingly) but are probably the only ones over 35 there who do. Most people are Conservative voters.

The pub was agog at the prospect of Boris Johnson as Prime Minister (they don't reckon that Hunt has a chance because he is a "traitor" - i.e. hasn't supported a no-deal Brexit from day 1) and think that he'll be able to get the "unicorns and rainbows" Brexit deal that we've been promised.

If not, they are confident that a no-deal Brexit will be no big deal. The locals are confident that the agricultural subsidies they rely on will increase post-Brexit and the incomers (largely retired senior managers or directors of large companies) reckon that as soon as Brexit is achieved, countries will come begging to the UK for new trade deals - including the EU who will finally come to their senses.

They're happy that the "immigrant problem" will finally be dealt with, though the only immigrants locally are Mrs Don who was from the US originally and a Danish midwife who has been in the UK since she came to start her nurses training 35 years ago, and that as a result locals will have affordable places to live (whilst at the same time incomers' property prices will be maintained and no new properties will have to be built - no, I don't know how that will happen either). All in all they are looking forward to a no-deal Brexit.

Interestingly, one band member who is a dyed in the wool Conservative (though interestingly went to the same school as Jeremy Corbyn) has always insisted that he was a reluctant Remain supporter. Last night he was emboldened enough to state that he had voted Leave not because he wanted to Leave particularly but because of the very poor quality of the Remain campaign. If this is true, it means that after 3 years of lying about voting Leave he is coming clean. If not true then it seems that he, like so many Conservative MPs has jumped ship and changed his position.

The incomers are fine, they are rich enough to be insulated from the worst effects of Brexit (though their children and grandchildren may not) as as retirees, they can afford to pull the ladder up after them. The locals may have a harder time.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 01:13 AM   #2903
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 16,140
A remark I overheard yesterday from someone who I'm pretty sure voted Leave was that, as no country has left the EU before, no-one knows what the consequences will be. The implication seemed to be that the "doom mongering" can therefore be ignored.

I'm increasingly starting to think we should leave without a deal, just so that people like that get to find out what the consequences of voting to destroy your country's economy out of wilful ignorance and blind prejudice actually are.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 01:33 AM   #2904
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm increasingly starting to think we should leave without a deal, just so that people like that get to find out what the consequences of voting to destroy your country's economy out of wilful ignorance and blind prejudice actually are.
I don't, not least because I too will suffer the economic consequences from Brexit.

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 01:46 AM   #2905
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU
... and will mostly be dead by the time the worst of those consequences come into effect. Let's not forget that, for the most part, this is a generation ******** on its children and grandchildren in the knowledge that they won't be around to face the music.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 01:56 AM   #2906
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
... and will mostly be dead by the time the worst of those consequences come into effect. Let's not forget that, for the most part, this is a generation ******** on its children and grandchildren in the knowledge that they won't be around to face the music.

Dave
True. A band mate who was, until his retirement a couple of years ago, MD of a UK-based but globally selling bridge manufacturing company has pointed out that his experience of international trade leads him to anticipate that although there will be considerable short-term pain, the real risk to the UK will be in the long term.

Year on year, GDP growth will be somewhat lower than it would otherwise have been. UK business will have less influence on global standards and as a consequence will find itself increasingly on the outskirts of international trade rather than being influencers at the core which in turn will have an impact on whether investment will come to the UK or elsewhere (the UK's share of the EU's inward investment (that is money from outside the EU into the EU) has taken a sharp fall since the Brexit vote).

There won't be bread riots on day 1 of Brexit (which will cause Brexiteers to call it a triumph ), but the UK will gradually slip out of the top 10,15 or 20 of global economies as other economies outgrow us.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:20 AM   #2907
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,215
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't, not least because I too will suffer the economic consequences from Brexit.

Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU
Likewise, the Brexit vote hit my wife's industry hard eventually leading to her redundancy at the end of last year, she was by far the greater bread winner in the household. I have a small business, two of my biggest regular customers are Polish and German, they've no intention of leaving the UK but I'd be noticeably poorer if they did. And I have a second job selling fine wines to the public, between the income squeeze and uncertainty it's been getting harder every year, this year has been awful so far and as it's commission only and I have to pay my own expenses it can actually end up costing me money. If the currency falls or we introduce tariffs that will be that.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:29 AM   #2908
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm increasingly starting to think we should leave without a deal, just so that people like that get to find out what the consequences of voting to destroy your country's economy out of wilful ignorance and blind prejudice actually are.
I'm starting to agree and furthermore, it should be BJ steering the ship. Nigel Farage would be my first choice, but since he isn't getting the wheel, BJ will have to do.
Horrible, attrocious, damaging? Yes. It's like chemo for cancer, in all aspects.

The death of UK will serve as a permanent reminder of what happens if you allow populism to run unchecked. It will insulate the West from populistm for a generation or two, like WW2 did.

Bad? Certainly. But the British brought it upon themselves. The rest of us can't help it.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:32 AM   #2909
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
But about a quarter of the British brought it upon themselves and the rest of their country.
FTFY. I voted Remain; I didn't bring this on anybody.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:41 AM   #2910
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:45 AM   #2911
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Likewise, the Brexit vote hit my wife's industry hard eventually leading to her redundancy at the end of last year, she was by far the greater bread winner in the household. I have a small business, two of my biggest regular customers are Polish and German, they've no intention of leaving the UK but I'd be noticeably poorer if they did. And I have a second job selling fine wines to the public, between the income squeeze and uncertainty it's been getting harder every year, this year has been awful so far and as it's commission only and I have to pay my own expenses it can actually end up costing me money. If the currency falls or we introduce tariffs that will be that.
Sorry to hear this

My business had a positive balance of trade with the EU to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. Any Brexit will hit that very hard, a disorderly Brexit will likely result in the business being wound up. I see this sad pattern repeating across the economy.

On another board I've taken flak from enthusiastic Brexiteers for the business not being able to take this kind of thing in its stride. IMO they're quite bonkers.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 02:58 AM   #2912
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.
Define "success."

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:10 AM   #2913
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
FTFY. I voted Remain; I didn't bring this on anybody.
Britain as a country, as a society, has. Not just by the referendum, that was simply the last straw. The society brought it upon itself by being overly tollerant of rampant populism, from populist right in this instance. The same goes for not changing the electoral system into something more modern, not having a written constitution and not holding lying politicians to account.

Not every single individual Brit is guilty of these of course, some did their fair share and fought against the tide, some did the bare minimum and were just outvoted, but far too many were far too tollerant of being told BS day in, day out, for decades on end. It's an emergent aspect that is not shared by all individuals of the society.

Could you as an individual do more? Should you do more? I don't know. That's something you need to ask yourself. Am honest answer in a majority of Brits would be "yes" to both. That's how you the society brought it on yourself, even if you the individual might honestly answer "no" to both. That's what I'm talking about.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:12 AM   #2914
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.
Also, define when this success might be established. 10 or 20 years of repairing the damage followed by 'success' that can't even be measured against what might have been without Brexit?

A hard Brexit might lead to irreparable damage to the B household if we lost reciprocal health care rights. It means irreparable damage to those driven to the closure of their businesses in the interim, and so on.
__________________
"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:22 AM   #2915
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brian Cox
‏Verified account
@ProfBrianCox

We are about to see the installation of a scoundrel as PM by a small cabal of ageing xenophobic golf club bores who will crash us out of the EU causing irreparable damage to our country and it can’t be stopped. Think about that. Voters cannot stop Johnson and cannot stop no deal.
Have you read Max Hastings on Johnson?
I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister

That's Max Hastings the Telegraph editor, though I suppose the Brexiteers will be condemning his as a liberal now.
Quote:
For 20 years I've known London's mayor is a gold-medal egomaniac. If he gets into No 10, I'm on the first plane out
Quote:
If the day ever comes that Boris Johnson becomes tenant of Downing Street, I shall be among those packing my bags for a new life in Buenos Aires or suchlike, because it means that Britain has abandoned its last pretensions to be a serious country.
Quote:
I would not trust him with my wife nor – from painful experience – my wallet.
Quote:
...it is hard to believe that any man so conspicuously incapable of controlling his own libido is fit to be trusted with controlling the country.
Quote:
...he is much given to making threats, bearing grudges and behaving with malice aforethought.
Quote:
Like many showy personalities, he is of weak character.
Quote:
Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade.
Quote:
...he is unfit for national office, because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:26 AM   #2916
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't, not least because I too will suffer the economic consequences from Brexit.
We've a big garden and can loan you a tent...

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU
Ah, the Imperial Delusion. Rather like Trump's support among teh Dumb, Deluded and Desperate, Brexiteers tend to be either insulated for the effects and greedy or too ignorant of reality to comprehend the consequences.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:27 AM   #2917
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.
Lets see your plan.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:46 AM   #2918
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,582
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.
I'll be delighted and will readily admit that I was completely wrong about Brexit. Of course it depends on how you define success. At the moment, it seems that those who are keen on Brexit are setting the bar pretty low - a lack of complete economic collapse and an absence of bread riots will likely be proclaimed a success.

During the Leave campaign we were promised a smooth transition to the post-Brexit world, economic growth above and beyond what we could expect if we remained in the EU, lots of extra money for the NHS and other important public services and a network of trade deals far superior to those we already have. For Brexit to be a success, I would expect all of this at a bare minimum. My expectations of success are not high.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 03:46 AM   #2919
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Those who have voted for Brexit and who support a no-deal IMO will literally never find out the consequences of their choice because they will blame any or all negative consequences on the EU, Remainers, previous incumbents or indeed simply ignore any negative consequences and claim that they either didn't happen or would have been far worse had we still been in the EU
I think the term here is not "find out", but "accept". You're right that a very large proportion of Brexiteers will never accept they were fooled and led the country into disaster.

Enough will however, they will recognize the loony right is insane and work against them. With any luck they will band together to keep the idiot Brexitards away from anything useful for the foreseeable future. I can tell you this would've happened already, if you had proportionally elected parliament. With direct representation and FPTP you need a tad of luck too. A trainwreck no deal Brexit will help a lot, it will kill the very idea of Brexit. It won't be worth the price and I strongly recommend doing something, anything else, but even the worst-case scenario sees BJ, Nigel and their ilk losing.

They just take everyone else down with them. Joy.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 26th June 2019 at 03:48 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 26th June 2019, 04:32 AM   #2920
Tolls
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 5,229
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If we leave and make a success of it, I wonder how all you doom-mongers will be capable of adjusting your world views to cope.
Oh for...
If it works out, great.
And by that I mean not having the country suffer unduly over the next few years, and not have the country struggle to maintain living standards, and not having the country making shoddy deals in order to make ends meet, and not essentially selling my kids future down the swanny.

I don't want Bresit-types bleating about how it's all going to work out in the end, as the economy slides.

I want this to work out pretty much from the off.
None of Rees-Moggs "we won't see benefits for up to 50 years" ********.

Why do I want that?
Because I don't want to be paying squit diddly for someone else's deranged fantasies. And I don't want my kids having to pick up the tab for morons.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That's Max Hastings the Telegraph editor, though I suppose the Brexiteers will be condemning his as a liberal now.
My favourite bit is:
Originally Posted by Hitler Hastings
If the Johnson family had stuck to showbusiness like the Osmonds, Marx Brothers or von Trapp family, the world would be a better place. Yet the Tories, in their terror, have elevated a cavorting charlatan to the steps of Downing Street, and they should expect to pay a full forfeit when voters get the message.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.