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Old 3rd January 2009, 07:09 AM   #121
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Okay - not knowing enough about species versus subspecies I'll accept that - thanks for the links ( I'd be interested in a short Hobbits ( easier ) versus pigmies or San outline if anyone cares to provide it )

Given the species designatore - that must automatically provide evidence for higher primate migrations out of Africa at different period - Hobbits and Neanderthal.

Even with Eve that does not necessarily mean it was the first time OOA for humans - just that one group survived.
Seems to me I read somewhere that even modern humans were down to extinction risk levels of population at certain periods.

What would be the determining genetic marker(s) that might turn up in a bone somewhere that would indicate an earlier modern human lineage excursion OOA that failed to take.

Just knowing it is not in the current population does not preclude an earlier migration - clearly the Hobbits made it a certain distance. ( something is nagging about islands, inbreeding and throwback characteristics. )

This was it - a possible variation of this phenomena
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr..._allfours.html

Last question- is there mitochondrial DNA for the Hobbits that rules out an Eve link?

TIA

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Old 3rd January 2009, 07:21 AM   #122
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They haven't found any Hobbit mTdna yet.

Remember, Homo Erectus, Homo Hidelbergensis, Homo Antecesscer and the Dmansi Hominids (whatever species they turn out to be, currently they've been tentatively assigened their own species, Homo Georgicus) have all been found outside Africa as well, The first was well distributed throughout Asia and Hidelbergensis and Antecesscer were both found in Europe.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 07:15 PM   #123
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Thanks - I'm being lazy - but what was the earliest detection of modern humans outside Africa?

Do we know from a fossil record or from mitochondrial record ( not sure how accurate the time line is for genetic tracking. )
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Old 3rd January 2009, 07:37 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Thanks - I'm being lazy - but what was the earliest detection of modern humans outside Africa?

Do we know from a fossil record or from mitochondrial record ( not sure how accurate the time line is for genetic tracking. )
The earliest I know of is the Dmansi Hominids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_georgicus

They're 1.8 million years old. Presumably there would be older fossils to find in the middle east if favourable conditions exist. After all, they must have gone through there to get to Georgia.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 08:00 PM   #125
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Do we know how that squares with the track back on the mitochondrial timeline? ( or is that not possible ).

1.8 for modern humans.....hmmmph - I'm not keeping up.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 08:29 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Thanks, good info but does not the Neanderthal themselves represent a earlier OOA excursion of parallel near human primate???....
Other primates evolved after early primates left Africa, but only one primate branch led to homo sapiens and that one evolved before leaving Africa.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 08:34 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
The earliest I know of is the Dmansi Hominids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_georgicus

They're 1.8 million years old. Presumably there would be older fossils to find in the middle east if favourable conditions exist. After all, they must have gone through there to get to Georgia.
He asked about "modern humans" not hominids.

Modern humans

homo
Quote:
* Homo sapiens (modern humans)
* Homo erectus
* Homo ergaster
* Homo rudolfensis
* Homo habilis
Hominidae
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Old 3rd January 2009, 08:45 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Do we know how that squares with the track back on the mitochondrial timeline? ( or is that not possible ).

1.8 for modern humans.....hmmmph - I'm not keeping up.
The 1.8 is for the Homo genus first leaving Africa. Modern Humans (Homo Saipens) first left Africa around 100,000 years ago.

As for DNA, I don't know much about it but wikipedia says DNA can last max 1 million years in optimum conditions (very cold and dry, in tropical conditions it's measured in the tens of years rather than thousands).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA

I'm not sure about mTdna, but it can be traced back at least 140,000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
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Old 3rd January 2009, 08:48 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
He asked about "modern humans" not hominids.

Modern humans

homo

Hominidae
misreading on my part.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 08:59 PM   #130
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Thank you SG - something struck me way wrong about that date for OOA for modern humans.

Time to play some catch up - been spending too much time on the environment pages.
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Old 25th January 2018, 02:31 PM   #131
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Modern humans left Africa much earlier

Originally Posted by BBC News
Researchers have identified the remains of the earliest known modern humans to have left Africa.

New dating of fossils from Israel indicates that our species (Homo sapiens) lived outside Africa around 185,000 years ago, some 80,000 years earlier than the previous evidence.

Details appear in the journal Science.

The co-lead researcher, Prof Israel Hershkovitz, told BBC News that the discovery would fundamentally alter ideas of recent human evolution.

"We have to rewrite the whole story of human evolution, not just for our own species but all the other species that lived outside of Africa at the time," the researcher, from Tel Aviv University, explained.

Prof Chris Stringer of London's Natural History Museum, who was not involved in the study, said: "The find breaks the long-established 130,000-year-old limit on modern humans outside of Africa...
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42817323
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Old 28th January 2018, 08:08 PM   #132
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Wow. Seems like old times cause it is. I posted a link to a very interesting thread on the R. Dawkins website which sadly no longer exists. Both Stringer and Milford Wolpoff, author of "Race and Human Evolution." His 'multiregional genesis" was rejected by most scientists back then, but in the following years most of his arguing points were verified. This find should seal it.
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Old 28th January 2018, 11:39 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
Wow. Seems like old times cause it is. I posted a link to a very interesting thread on the R. Dawkins website which sadly no longer exists. Both Stringer and Milford Wolpoff, author of "Race and Human Evolution." His 'multiregional genesis" was rejected by most scientists back then, but in the following years most of his arguing points were verified. This find should seal it.
Huh, I thought the multiregional origin hypotheses was long dead and getting even deader as more genetic evidence comes to light. This article does not imply any such thing.
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Old 29th January 2018, 12:14 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Huh, I thought the multiregional origin hypotheses was long dead and getting even deader as more genetic evidence comes to light. This article does not imply any such thing.
What's your source on that? Not saying you're wrong. I got distracted and never added that both Stringer and Wolpoff participated-at my request-in the thread on this subject I mention above. There was another major analyst there but can't remember his name.

What article are you referring to, Cheetah? I know there are still some who maintain the 'out of Africa' view, but unless there's something new I still believe the evidence we have refutes it.
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Old 29th January 2018, 12:28 AM   #135
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The article William Parcher posted.

I don't have a source, can't say I'm up to date on the subject.

I though the majority of evidence for MR was based on bone morphology and over the last few years I just got the impression that genetic studies point firmly to OOA (at least all the ones I came across).

Could you expand on "...his arguing points were verified" and "This find should seal it".
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Old 29th January 2018, 12:42 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
Wow. Seems like old times cause it is. I posted a link to a very interesting thread on the R. Dawkins website which sadly no longer exists. Both Stringer and Milford Wolpoff, author of "Race and Human Evolution." His 'multiregional genesis" was rejected by most scientists back then, but in the following years most of his arguing points were verified. This find should seal it.
And you didn't notice the title that "[Unscientific concept] and Human Evolution" was already a declaration about the author, and not a very nice one? Tsk.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Other primates evolved after early primates left Africa, but only one primate branch led to homo sapiens and that one evolved before leaving Africa.
The evidence is a slam dunk.
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Old 29th January 2018, 01:10 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The evidence is a slam dunk.
This seems beyond doubt.
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Old 29th January 2018, 12:51 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
Wow. Seems like old times cause it is. I posted a link to a very interesting thread on the R. Dawkins website which sadly no longer exists. Both Stringer and Milford Wolpoff, author of "Race and Human Evolution." His 'multiregional genesis" was rejected by most scientists back then, but in the following years most of his arguing points were verified. This find should seal it.
This find is not support for the multiregional genesis theory.
Modern humans left Africa much earlier
Quote:
Researchers have identified the remains of the earliest known modern humans to have left Africa.

New dating of fossils from Israel indicates that our species (Homo sapiens) lived outside Africa around 185,000 years ago, some 80,000 years earlier than the previous evidence.
...
The new scientific dating evidence raises the possibility that modern humans interacted with other, now extinct, species of humans for tens of thousands of years. It also fits in with recent discoveries of remains and genetic studies that also indicate an earlier departure from Africa.
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Old 29th January 2018, 12:56 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by recursive prophet View Post
What article are you referring to, Cheetah? I know there are still some who maintain the 'out of Africa' view, but unless there's something new I still believe the evidence we have refutes it.

You clearly aren't paying attention to what the new evidence is. "Multi-region" has long since disproven. "Out of Africa" is the only model supported by the evidence. What this new evidence shows is not that Out of Africa is wrong, but that the previous supposition of a single key migration event is wrong, and that Out of Africa covers multiple migration events, over a longer period of time and starting considerably earlier than had previously been supposed, based on the available evidence.
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Old 29th January 2018, 01:28 PM   #140
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Quote:
that Out of Africa covers multiple migration events, over a longer period of time and starting considerably earlier than had previously been supposed, based on the available evidence.
Yup ....lot's of hints at that as DNA evidence accumulates even within existing populations.
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:46 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You clearly aren't paying attention to what the new evidence is. "Multi-region" has long since disproven. "Out of Africa" is the only model supported by the evidence. What this new evidence shows is not that Out of Africa is wrong, but that the previous supposition of a single key migration event is wrong, and that Out of Africa covers multiple migration events, over a longer period of time and starting considerably earlier than had previously been supposed, based on the available evidence.
I've heard this described as 'sloshing', now we have earlier incidents of said movement. HSS and earlier versions evolved in Africa, moved out then later waves left Africa and merged with those that had left earlier and evolved slightly differently, ie Denisovians, Neanderthals and the unknown HSS and perhaps others.
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Old 30th January 2018, 07:55 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Modern humans left Africa much earlier



http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42817323
Important to note this part of the article

Quote:
However, the early excursions into Eurasia by African Homo sapiens represented at Misliya are generally thought to have ended in extinction. Findings from genetics and archaeology suggest that present-day people living outside Africa trace their ancestry to an exodus just 60,000 years ago. Most DNA studies have failed to find evidence of these older migrations in our genes.
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Old 30th January 2018, 08:10 AM   #143
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This answers the question as to why modern humans styed in Africa for 150K years but raises new questions as to why these earlier migrations out of Africa hit dead ends while the one 60KYA displaced all our near human cousins. Some possibilities off the top of my head:
There were still differences in modern humans that arose between these earlier and later migrations
There were differences in our toolkit between the earlier and later migrations
There was some disruption to other Hominid populations that opened up an ecological niche.
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Old 30th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This answers the question as to why modern humans styed in Africa for 150K years but raises new questions as to why these earlier migrations out of Africa hit dead ends while the one 60KYA displaced all our near human cousins. Some possibilities off the top of my head:
There were still differences in modern humans that arose between these earlier and later migrations
There were differences in our toolkit between the earlier and later migrations
There was some disruption to other Hominid populations that opened up an ecological niche.
Good ones, all plausible. Betting money on number two.
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Old 30th January 2018, 03:11 PM   #145
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Many thanks to those here who have updated my knowledge of this subject. I still have some questions about how scientists got it so wrong wrt when the first humans evolved doesn't in fact indicate it happened often and in places yet to be discovered. Gonna spend some time with Google.

Back when Wolpoff wrote his 1999 book, most believed there was no way we had any Neanderthal DNA, but he was proven right a few years later. But as confessed above, I haven't kept up with this subject so I'll refrain from any further expiation until I read up on the latest. Again, thanks for the 'wake up old man' call. I was clearly overdue.
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Old 31st January 2018, 11:36 AM   #146
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Quote:
Some possibilities off the top of my head:
the migrating population was too small leading to genetic issues.

Quote:
Most DNA studies have failed to find evidence of these older migrations in our genes.
Quote:
Pacific Islanders appear to be carrying the DNA of an unknown human ...
https://www.sciencealert.com/pacific...he-dna-of-an-u...
Oct 25, 2016 - Bohlender and his team have been investigating the percentages of extinct hominid DNA that modern humans still carry today, and say they've found ... As we reported last month, this was the most comprehensive genetic study of Indigenous Australians to date, and it indicated that they are the oldest .
https://www.sciencealert.com/pacific...-human-species

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Old 31st January 2018, 08:29 PM   #147
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Stone tools in India suggest earlier human exit from Africa.

Stone tools found in India have been dated. They switched to a more modern style between 385,000 and 172,00 years ago. This style of tool is associated with modern humans, Neanderthals and possibly some other closely related species.

Sounds like a bit of a long shot to me.
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Old 2nd February 2018, 12:27 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
I've heard this described as 'sloshing', now we have earlier incidents of said movement. HSS and earlier versions evolved in Africa, moved out then later waves left Africa and merged with those that had left earlier and evolved slightly differently, ie Denisovians, Neanderthals and the unknown HSS and perhaps others.
So far my understanding is that the Denisovians have added the most unambiguously beneficial genes to their living descendants.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/...-ancient-human

Many of the other hybrid DNA seems to be reducing* over time, suggesting that it's not beneficial.


*Source: BBC Inside Science podcast http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09jqtg5

A programme that is well worth listening to - the usual format is 3 ten-minute interviews with leading scientists, with the presenter (Dr Alan Rutherford) being very scientifically literate, especially about biology...
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Old 2nd February 2018, 01:21 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Good ones, all plausible. Betting money on number two.
It is possible that HSS may have developed a particular technology, either better language or tactics at hunting as a group. OR they carried with them diseases that they were immune to and did a 'Spanish typoid Mary to the Americas' thing on the earlier groups.

Of course all this is sketchy info. In my first Anthro class the instructor - and we were in a huge old style movie theater that could seat 6-700 people. Moved over to the wall which was vast expanse of white and took out a pencil and put a dot on the wall. He stood back and pointed the vast wall then the dot and said, this is the amount of material we have on ancient man vs how many actually lived.

Of course DNA has increased our reach but as Otzi showed (his line died out) we are probably missing/not finding a lot of info.

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Old 3rd February 2018, 06:40 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
...
A programme that is well worth listening to - the usual format is 3 ten-minute interviews with leading scientists, with the presenter (Dr Alan Rutherford) being very scientifically literate, especially about biology...


Adam

...the presenter's name.

...not the answer to OOA/multiregion.
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Old 3rd February 2018, 07:04 AM   #151
jimbob
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Adam

...the presenter's name.

...not the answer to OOA/multiregion.
Doh, I meant that.

But it did give you a splendid lead in line, so it wasn't a complete waste.
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Old 4th February 2018, 12:54 PM   #152
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According to Svante Pääbo in his lecture series, a sort of modified multiregional has strong evidence through introgression. He states it a bit differently though. The OOA hypothesis is replacement of archaic types by modern human migration. He says instead "leaky replacement" meaning mostly OOA but slightly multiregional.

The diverse origins of the human gene pool
Svante Pääbo
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Old 5th February 2018, 04:42 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So far my understanding is that the Denisovians have added the most unambiguously beneficial genes to their living descendants.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/...-ancient-human

Many of the other hybrid DNA seems to be reducing* over time, suggesting that it's not beneficial.


*Source: BBC Inside Science podcast http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09jqtg5

A programme that is well worth listening to - the usual format is 3 ten-minute interviews with leading scientists, with the presenter (Dr Alan Rutherford) being very scientifically literate, especially about biology...
Adam (as already noted) Rutherford is indeed very knowledgeable about the topic. Check out his recent book, A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived: The Stories in Our Genes which is on this topic.

He's also a jolly nice chap, and very entertaining as a live speaker, if you ever get the chance to see him. He studied under Professor Steve Jones, also an expert in the topic.
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Old 8th February 2018, 10:34 AM   #154
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Is there any actual merit to the multi-regional theory, or is it simply the fantasy of a bunch of white supremacists trying to find a way out of the uncomfortable truth that like everyone else, they are descended from (as UnrepentantSinner so eloquently puts it) "mud people"?

I think the recent discovery that humans came out of Africa 60,000 years earlier than previously thought is going to put a spanner in that particular works. Also, the discovery through DNA that "Cheddar Man" has dark skin is going upset a few of Britain's more rabid "white might" fanatics.
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:09 AM   #155
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There is always a reason to investigate things, even though some are motivated by racist thoughts.
However it is odd, we know there is no data to support that homo sapiens sapiens or homo sapiens neanderthalis had multiple origins.

Homo erectus did have a fairly wide spread dispersal. So they used to keep hoping that somehow this might mean something. It seems fairly certain however that the ancestors of homo sapiens arose in East Africa 3 mya and that they did not spread very far from there.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:06 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Is there any actual merit to the multi-regional theory, or is it simply the fantasy of a bunch of white supremacists trying to find a way out of the uncomfortable truth that like everyone else, they are descended from (as UnrepentantSinner so eloquently puts it) "mud people"?
Only if you take it very loosely. There is a small percentage of genes that were inherited from archaic humans and from the same region, but the vast majority our genetic heritage of humans from these regions converges in Africa ~60K years ago.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

I think the recent discovery that humans came out of Africa 60,000 years earlier than previously thought is going to put a spanner in that particular works.

Even the modern human populations claimed to have left Africa earlier it seems they were either swamped or replaced by the 60KYA migration. They don't seem to have passed on any of their genes because populations outside Africa all descend from people who lived in Northern Africa ~60 000 years ago. It's not inconceivable that there was gene flow back into Africa prior to this migration, but in that case these genes would be dispersed pretty much everywhere with no real regional connection.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:18 PM   #157
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I wonder if these could renew interest in a version of the Toba Catastrophe hypothesis? The original version suggested that the Toba Supervolcano eruption 75KYA, the largest eruption in at least 15 million years, caused a proposed bottleneck in human evolution. Subsequent studies called the bottleneck into question and found no physical evidence for long term effects in Africa.

Perhaps the eruption weakened populations outside Africa opening an niche to be filled by a new migration, which could explain why the one 60-70 KYA replaced everything while previous migrations of modern humans out of Africa remained revivify small.
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:55 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
.......He studied under Professor Steve Jones, also an expert in the topic.
Not just an expert.....almost the expert.
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:54 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Is there any actual merit to the multi-regional theory, or is it simply the fantasy of a bunch of white supremacists trying to find a way out of the uncomfortable truth that like everyone else, they are descended from (as UnrepentantSinner so eloquently puts it) "mud people"?

I think the recent discovery that humans came out of Africa 60,000 years earlier than previously thought is going to put a spanner in that particular works. Also, the discovery through DNA that "Cheddar Man" has dark skin is going upset a few of Britain's more rabid "white might" fanatics.
In Australia it is the fantasy of a bunch of indigenous "elders" and "historians" who want others to accept that aborigines evolved here and do not share heritage with those who came later. I understand that radical native Americans spew out the same ********.
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Old 9th February 2018, 02:17 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Is there any actual merit to the multi-regional theory, or is it simply the fantasy of a bunch of white supremacists trying to find a way out of the uncomfortable truth that like everyone else, they are descended from (as UnrepentantSinner so eloquently puts it) "mud people"?
Besides some degree of "mongrelization" with related species (for instance, Neanderthal ADN is a couple of points higher in Europeans), the theory is just a way to hide most of our great great great great great ... great great great great grand parents were blacker than Obama.
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