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#41 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
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None of that justifies having trials so secret that nobody even knows that a trial took place - let alone who was being tried. He might as well have been employed by the KGB if this sort of totalitarian tactic is now considered "normal".
A failure of whatever agency that employed him to vet his security clearance and make adequate provisions for potential breaches of security is not something that the legal system should fix. |
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#42 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
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#43 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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#44 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#45 |
Observer of Phenomena
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And those are only two of Australia's intelligence agencies. There's also the Defence Signals Directorate (DSD) which handles cybersecurity and several others. All of them require a certain level of secrecy. Heck, I'm applying for a new level on my own security clearance right now and I'm a nobody.
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#46 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#47 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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Its not straw at all, its the only logical conclusion to draw from your stated position....
"None of that justifies having trials so secret that nobody even knows that a trial took place" Its is quite clear that if you believe protection of the innocent does not justify a covert trial, then you must, by default, believe that a trial against a person who, if their identity became known, would endanger other people, should be a public one. Me, I would rather see secret trials for such extreme cases, than the only realistic alternative to protect the innocent; i.e. termination and sanction with extreme prejudice. |
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#48 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 16,878
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
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#49 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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#50 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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#51 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#52 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 16,257
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Indeed not. But as I wrote before, the way this is meant to work is that we are supposed to trust the individual and collective judgements of the various people at the top of government, the judiciary and the police. We are supposed to understand that these people will make informed, educated and sincere judgements about the (extremely small) number of trials where the importance of a) safeguarding particular individuals, and/or b) protecting the national interest, supercedes the importance of the transparency and openness of justice and criminal trials. Now, of course people are free to debate whether or not the collective of individuals who make these decisions are actually making the correct decisions or not. And people are also free to debate whether the criteria that are being used by these individuals to justify closed/secret trials are correct or appropriate. But I personally can't think of a better (or, if one is cynical, a less-bad) way in principle and in practice to approach - and hopefully solve - this problem. |
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#53 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#54 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 16,257
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While this may be true (and I'm certainly not sufficiently conversant in Australian politics to form a reasonable opinion), one would at least hope that a) Dutton will have based his actions upon counsel from well-qualified advisers, and b) Dutton will also have received advice from senior police officers and senior members of the judiciary. Of course, it's always distinctly possible that the one person with the ultimate power and authority in this sort of situation will countermand all the advice and recommendations given to him/her - but again, one would hope that this would be unlikely (and subject to repercussions of some variety if it did happen). I'd also repeat that I personally can't think of a better (least-bad?) way of doing this. Provided we agree in principle that it's worth sacrificing the desired openness of justice when individuals might be placed into potential significant danger and/or where there was the genuine possibility of a serious threat to national security, there pretty much has to be a mechanism in place where a certain individual or individuals have to make judgement calls like these. |
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#55 |
Observer of Phenomena
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I absolutely guarantee that neither of those things is true. Because Dutton. He's a power-hungry despot who has spent his time in the Home Affairs ministry - a ministry that he invented - steadily eroding human rights and presiding over some of the worst crimes committed by an inhumane and heartless government.
Again, Dutton is exactly the sort of evil ****** who would do that. Oh yes, in principle I agree. But there isn't just the potential to abuse that power, that power is being actively abused right now. |
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#56 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
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#57 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 566
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Hmph. So ASIO is "Australian Security Intelligence Organisation." Why couldn't they reduce that to "AuSI" or something unique? I really hate thinking "Asynchronous input-output" could lead to someone's incarceration.
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#58 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
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#59 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#60 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 16,257
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That's absolutely true of course. But my overarching point is this: if we are in agreement that 1) there may be certain trials where during the course of the trial: a) the personal safety of one or more individuals may be placed at significant risk if there is public disclosure of the trial proceedings and verdict; and/or b) national security may be jeopardised by public disclosure of the trial proceedings and verdict; and 2) the possibility of one or both of the situations outlined in (1) above occurring means that it is worth abandonning the (otherwise-desirable) practice of conducting criminal justice proceedings in full public openness and with full access to media reporting..... .....then..... 3) ultimately someone (or some group of people, with one person making the final authoritative decision) is going to have to weigh up the position - necessarily in secret as regards the media and public - and decide whether the conditions have been met such that a trial must be held away from public/media oversight. If the above is acceptable, then there are really two questions which must consequently be addressed: 4) Who is going to be charged with assessing these sorts of situations and making the decision on whether to order a closed trial? (And within that question, which individual makes the ultimate judgement, and who else feeds into that judgemental process?) 5) What is the methodology and set of conditions that should be assessed by the person or people in (4) above? In other words, what tests should be applied, and what are the required triggering benchmarks for the person or people in (4) to order a closed trial? When it comes to question 4, I would argue that the only people capable of being the one with the final authority would either be a) the trial judge, b) the most senior member of the judiciary, c) the member of government with responsibility for home affairs, or d) the leader of government. Liberal democracies tend to believe that it should be a democratically-accountable figure who makes this sort of decision, which rules out the judiciary in a country such as Australia. So it's no surprise that in Australia, it's the Minister for Home Affairs who appears to have made the ultimate decision. As I understand it, there's no information publicly available about the way in which this sort of decision is made in Aus (i.e. who informs and advises the minister, and to what extent is the minister required to act upon the advice given). As I said, I truly can't think of a better - or "less bad" - way of approaching this sort of thing. It gets dicey if there's a clueless or impartial moron in the senior governmental position of Home Minister of course, but perhaps that a price to pay with democracy. As an associated observation, just imagine what kind of power the elected President of the United States has at his/her disposal, and realise the person currently occupying that position...... |
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#61 |
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,688
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Really tried to read the article, but got bored when I realised he was in the easy wing, for just 6 months and then released.
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#62 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#63 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
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![]() ; and ![]() .....then..... ![]() The Chief Justice (or in your case, the Lord Chief Justice of England & Wales) Both the prosecution and the defence petition the Chief Justice, presenting their own cases for whether the trial should be held in secret. |
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#64 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
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__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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#65 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,817
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Quote:
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#66 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#67 |
Observer of Phenomena
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