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Old 6th December 2019, 03:17 PM   #41
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The video touched on a crucial point. The man with type 1 diabetes who couldn't afford his insulin set up a go-fund-me page, and came up only $50 short. He died. The presenter pointed out that if the page had got more clicks, if there were more people who realised that only $50 would save this man's life, he would have got it. But that didn't happen.
Well, that can't be true. Insulin is a life-long treatment. 50 bucks does not make a crucial difference. That would have helped him a month longer, or so, but it would not have saved his life. (and you don't just go die from diabetes, it's a long process)

Quote:
Well, one thing that can potentially be done about that is taxation, and a properly-administered benefits system. Two huge advantages. It prevents freeloading by the rich miser who doesn't contribute anything, leaving the burden of charity to others - essentially it spreads the charitable load equitably according to means rather than inequitably according to generosity - and it (in an ideal world) identifies where the critical need is and gets the money there. The diabetic gets his insulin before the little girl gets her Christmas present, I'm afraid.
Oh, I quite agree. That's what we have where I am. No diabetic will lack insulin here, but there ARE limits, obviously: Some very expensive treatments for rare diseases are not covered.

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Old 6th December 2019, 03:39 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I understand that, but there must still be people thinking: Why is that sort of thing necessary?

Well, yes, the article that I posted in the OP and the video just posted. But it seems not to be something that strikes most viewers or readers, because that interpretation isn't pointed out.

I didn't follow up on the diabetes thing but there was a Snopes link on the video so I assume that at some level there was truth in the allegation.

A diabetic did die in England because he had no money for electricity so he couldn't run his fridge that was necessary to keep his insulin cool. It's not just America where atrocious things happen.
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Old 6th December 2019, 03:57 PM   #43
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Obviously, if a diabetic consistently does not get insulin, the condition will eventually be fatal.

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Old 6th December 2019, 04:16 PM   #44
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I don't know the exact circumstances of the go-fund-me guy, but as I said, the video had a link to Snopes in relation to the case.
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Old 6th December 2019, 04:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The video touched on a crucial point. The man with type 1 diabetes who couldn't afford his insulin set up a go-fund-me page, and came up only $50 short. He died. The presenter pointed out that if the page had got more clicks, if there were more people who realised that only $50 would save this man's life, he would have got it. But that didn't happen.

People are generous, people are charitable, people want to help. But there are many appeals out there and nobody is triaging them to make sure the really critical ones get seen and it's a toss-up whether something goes viral and rakes in plenty or is overlooked and fails. What can be done about that?

Well, one thing that can potentially be done about that is taxation, and a properly-administered benefits system. Two huge advantages. It prevents freeloading by the rich miser who doesn't contribute anything, leaving the burden of charity to others - essentially it spreads the charitable load equitably according to means rather than inequitably according to generosity - and it (in an ideal world) identifies where the critical need is and gets the money there. The diabetic gets his insulin before the little girl gets her Christmas present, I'm afraid.

And now we're going to have a pile-on by people who insist that this is theft and it should be entirely up to them who they want to give money to and if they want to let the diabetic guy die that's their right. Carry on.
And that, my friend, is rather strange. In effect, such an attitude is actually anti-christian. Only help one's neighbour if one happens to be in the mood? maybe?? So long as it has no impact on my comfortable life?

Is that really the message of jebus? I think not.
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Old 6th December 2019, 04:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Yes by all means keep the news negative at every cost, feel good stories have no place in this "if it bleeds it leads" Society. Actually, that's not the kind of world I want to live in. I want to hear positive stories once in awhile.
News papers and TV? Ok Boomer.
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Old 6th December 2019, 04:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The video touched on a crucial point. The man with type 1 diabetes who couldn't afford his insulin set up a go-fund-me page, and came up only $50 short. He died. The presenter pointed out that if the page had got more clicks, if there were more people who realised that only $50 would save this man's life, he would have got it. But that didn't happen.

People are generous, people are charitable, people want to help. But there are many appeals out there and nobody is triaging them to make sure the really critical ones get seen and it's a toss-up whether something goes viral and rakes in plenty or is overlooked and fails. What can be done about that?

Well, one thing that can potentially be done about that is taxation, and a properly-administered benefits system. Two huge advantages. It prevents freeloading by the rich miser who doesn't contribute anything, leaving the burden of charity to others - essentially it spreads the charitable load equitably according to means rather than inequitably according to generosity - and it (in an ideal world) identifies where the critical need is and gets the money there. The diabetic gets his insulin before the little girl gets her Christmas present, I'm afraid.

And now we're going to have a pile-on by people who insist that this is theft and it should be entirely up to them who they want to give money to and if they want to let the diabetic guy die that's their right. Carry on.
IIRC, he was an obese T2. And insulin is available in many places OTC. I've bought it for $24 at Walmart pharmacy. That would be $100/month. Unless his Rx was for a pen, then it cost literally 10 times as much. A Doc did that to me one month. Needles can be re-used for the same patient, if you are not concerned about giving yourself a germ from yourself if you stick yourself when you re-cap. And they only cost 25 cents. I use mine for a week or so. He died because he was stupid, not because he was poor.

He was making $35K. Working in a restaurant, his meals were free/cheap. How expensive is rent in St. Paul? What was he doing with his money?
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Old 6th December 2019, 05:10 PM   #48
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The video says he was T1. Not the same case?
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The video says he was T1. Not the same case?
The article I read didn't say. But there was a follow on article about a different case, that did mention the individual being T1.

But the waters get muddied by "Insulin dependent T2", like me. True T1, which is an auto-imune disease, prevents insulin out put at all. T2 is "insulin resistance", and needs gobs of insulin to overcome the resistance by keeping the receptors flooded. T1 might only need 30 units/day, one $25 vial would last a month. T2 might need 200 units per day, $150/ month.

Those prices are for a quick acting, short lived type(Humalog in one brand, Novalog in the other) . 2 shots per day, at breakfast and dinner. Plus there is a slower, longer type, Humalin/Novalin. Twice per day also, morning and evening, but the two types can be mixed together for a total of 2 shots per day. And 70/30 pre-mixes are available too. The newer extra long lasting kind, in a pen, (Insulin for dummies) might cost umm 10 times as much. Lantus is one of those. But it does not lead to any better sugar control, does add to Big Pharma's bottom line.
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:21 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I understand that, but there must still be people thinking: Why is that sort of thing necessary?

There are, but IME very, very few of them; and those who do are generally shouted down for being "Negative Nancys", cynics, killjoys, and generally accused of being misanthropic or "politicizing a personal tragedy".

Reporting of these sorts of stories is framed to prevent those sorts of questions from being asked, to distract from the wider failures of society and its broken social structures by "hitting the feels". To get people so caught up in pity and the vicarious experience of overcoming adversity, that they fail to ask why a company needs to run sad sack contests and food drives to support their employees, instead of just paying them a living wage out of the billions-of-dollars-per-year profits that they're making so these contests and food drives are unnecessary.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
IIRC, he was an obese T2. And insulin is available in many places OTC. I've bought it for $24 at Walmart pharmacy. That would be $100/month. Unless his Rx was for a pen, then it cost literally 10 times as much. A Doc did that to me one month. Needles can be re-used for the same patient, if you are not concerned about giving yourself a germ from yourself if you stick yourself when you re-cap. And they only cost 25 cents. I use mine for a week or so. He died because he was stupid, not because he was poor.

He was making $35K. Working in a restaurant, his meals were free/cheap. How expensive is rent in St. Paul? What was he doing with his money?
That escalated quickly based on your own speculation. In any event, you seem to be talking about this person who died from lack of insulin, not this one.
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:36 AM   #52
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Quote:
Charity is a cold grey loveless thing. If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim.
Clement Attlee, 1920
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I understand the basic concern in the article, but don't these stories also help calling attention to exactly those shortcomings in society?

Hans

Yeah, but they also show these problems being solved and paint them as positives.

What they don't show is numerous other cases of a similar nature that ended badly because they didn't catch publicity or the person concerned was ugly or undesirable or there was nobody who knew about it who could spend x weeks fundraising without losing their job and their home.

For every 'aren't people generous, isn't it marvelous' there are many more cases where the person just died or suffered.
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:49 AM   #54
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And Guide Dogs for the Blind have more money than God while geriatric mental healthcare charities barely get a bean.
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:55 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And Guide Dogs for the Blind have more money than God while geriatric mental healthcare charities barely get a bean.
Guide dogs are cute. Old people with failing mental health are not.


Not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know.
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:56 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not sure they do. It's all in the framing.

The framing is almost never, "It's scandalous that a woman is being denied a kidney transplant because of lack of money, and heartbreaking that her child is trying to raise the money by selling lemonade when nobody can make $400,000 from a lemonade stand. The mother is going to die."

The framing is "Look at this wonderful kid, she's raised $1,000 from a lemonade stand to help her sick mother, isn't that heartwarming!"
That's why it made me think of this article I saw a while back. Victim derogation/blaming is well established in research on just world beliefs and system justification. There probably needs to be more research on victim enhancement to establish whether it it is replicable. The argument is that those who want to preserve a belief that people get what they deserve tend to engage in victim blaming when they can manage to find a trait in the victim that can appear to be causally related to the outcome. When this can't happen (as in the case of a child with a dying parent) victim enhancement is an alternative that serves the same function.
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Old 7th December 2019, 09:10 AM   #57
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Interesting idea.
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Old 7th December 2019, 09:52 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And Guide Dogs for the Blind have more money than God while geriatric mental healthcare charities barely get a bean.
Top 10 charities in the UK by fundraising

The top 10 charities by fundraising income (2010/11 ranking in brackets)
1 Cancer Research UK (1)*£446.5m raised out of a total income of £634.9m
2 British Heart Foundation (2)*£263.8m, £288.2m
3 Macmillan Cancer Support (6)*£214.1m, £218.4m
4 Oxfam (3)*£192.8m, £401.4m
5 Sightsavers (10)*£184.7m, £199.7m
6*RNLI*(4)*£170.9m, £190.1m
7*British Red Cross*(7)*£139.1m, £261.8m
8*Salvation Army*(9)*£130m, £196.3m
9*Save the Children*(13)*£125.3m, £370.3m
10 NSPCC (5)*£115.3m, £125.9m
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Old 7th December 2019, 10:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
That escalated quickly based on your own speculation. In any event, you seem to be talking about this person who died from lack of insulin, not this one.
Speculation or expertise? Have you ever bought your own insulin? I was buying my own for 15 years before I got health insurance. On income of less than $15k (1990 dollars). And paying for my own groceries.

The culprit in these two diabetic deaths is being sheeple and stupidly going along with doctor's orders. Doc gives you an Rx for an expensive 'pen', because he thinks you are too stoopid to use a syringe and vial. And you don't think to ask about a cheaper alternative. Because you are too stoopid to educate yourself. But they can spend their time on Facebook, and making Gofundmes. Instead of googleing <diabetes treatment>. I could buy enough insulin to kill a horse for the money they spent on their internet bills.

Unless you can prove which insulin they were on, YOU are the speculator.
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Old 7th December 2019, 12:27 PM   #60
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And stupid people apparently deserve to die, right?
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Old 7th December 2019, 12:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And stupid people apparently deserve to die, right?
Ever hear of the Darwin Awards? :Let me know when you can do something about the "Hold my beer and watch this..." people.
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Old 7th December 2019, 12:48 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Speculation or expertise? Have you ever bought your own insulin? I was buying my own for 15 years before I got health insurance. On income of less than $15k (1990 dollars). And paying for my own groceries.

The culprit in these two diabetic deaths is being sheeple and stupidly going along with doctor's orders. Doc gives you an Rx for an expensive 'pen', because he thinks you are too stoopid to use a syringe and vial. And you don't think to ask about a cheaper alternative. Because you are too stoopid to educate yourself. But they can spend their time on Facebook, and making Gofundmes. Instead of googleing <diabetes treatment>. I could buy enough insulin to kill a horse for the money they spent on their internet bills.

Unless you can prove which insulin they were on, YOU are the speculator.
Actually, let's face it: We have no idea. But this only underlines the point about the porn quality of these stories: They may be embellished, or even fake to become appealing. Another problem: There will be people posting fake stories to rip others off.

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Old 7th December 2019, 01:11 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Ever hear of the Darwin Awards? :Let me know when you can do something about the "Hold my beer and watch this..." people.
Well, you could always have a welfare state where they don't have to navigate a confusing and bureaucratic healthcare system in order to get the drugs they need at the best price. But I guess that would be too difficult for the greatest country on earth to implement.
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Well, you could always have a welfare state where they don't have to navigate a confusing and bureaucratic healthcare system in order to get the drugs they need at the best price. But I guess that would be too difficult for the greatest country on earth to implement.
And doctors who prescribe based on need rather than drug company incentives.
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Old 13th December 2019, 06:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Instead of googleing <diabetes treatment>. I could buy enough insulin to kill a horse for the money they spent on their internet bills.
.
"Screw what my doctor says! I'm going to ask Google"

That's the methodology behind most people in the anti vax movement. Not that people shouldn't ask questions and educate themselves. And I'm not saying that all doctors are perfect and should be obeyed without question. But most people making most medical decisions will do better deferring to expertise. Get a second opinion sure (Although that may well cost dearly) but medicine is not a DIY activity.

I'll also speculate that the cost and availability of drugs for one person 30 years ago may not necessarily be applicable in all cases today.
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Old 13th December 2019, 09:28 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
"Screw what my doctor says! I'm going to ask Google"

That's the methodology behind most people in the anti vax movement. Not that people shouldn't ask questions and educate themselves. And I'm not saying that all doctors are perfect and should be obeyed without question. But most people making most medical decisions will do better deferring to expertise. Get a second opinion sure (Although that may well cost dearly) but medicine is not a DIY activity.

I'll also speculate that the cost and availability of drugs for one person 30 years ago may not necessarily be applicable in all cases today.
My most recent OTC, no Rx, purchase was fairly recent. I was in the Obamacare donut hole. The one drug that put me in the hole was one of the latest, greatest, New Improved! most expensive insulins. IIRC, $225/vial instead of $25.
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Old 22nd December 2019, 09:45 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I understand the basic concern in the article, but don't these stories also help calling attention to exactly those shortcomings in society?

I don't think that's what people/women want when they read Alt for damerne, Hendes verden and Femina: »Ugens glade krøbling«.
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Old 22nd December 2019, 02:58 PM   #68
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Uhm, frankly, I wouldn't know.

Hans
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Old 22nd December 2019, 08:40 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post

The culprit in these two diabetic deaths is being sheeple and stupidly going along with doctor's orders. Doc gives you an Rx for an expensive 'pen', because he thinks you are too stoopid to use a syringe and vial. And you don't think to ask about a cheaper alternative. Because you are too stoopid to educate yourself. But they can spend their time on Facebook, and making Gofundmes. Instead of googleing <diabetes treatment>. I could buy enough insulin to kill a horse for the money they spent on their internet bills.
There is also the flip side of perseverance porn, which is that some people who manage to triumph over adversity develop a shocking contempt for those that have not.
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Old 23rd December 2019, 01:10 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There is also the flip side of perseverance porn, which is that some people who manage to triumph over adversity develop a shocking contempt for those that have not.
I think some of that is our natural inclination to ascribe agency to ourselves when it is simply the circumstances we encountered. "I didn't 'succeed' because of fortuitous circumstances it was all my own hard work". If we start thinking that other people may have "failed" because of uncontrollable circumstances it may lead people to think we didn't succeed because of our own agency.
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Old 23rd December 2019, 02:31 AM   #71
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think some of that is our natural inclination to ascribe agency to ourselves when it is simply the circumstances we encountered. "I didn't 'succeed' because of fortuitous circumstances it was all my own hard work". If we start thinking that other people may have "failed" because of uncontrollable circumstances it may lead people to think we didn't succeed because of our own agency.
It is the same cultural mythology that holds up farmers and ranchers as self-sufficient Manly-Mans forging a living out of nothing but their own sweat and grit, when the reality is that family farming is unsustainable without enormous levels of continuous government subsidy.
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Old 23rd December 2019, 04:35 AM   #72
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think some of that is our natural inclination to ascribe agency to ourselves when it is simply the circumstances we encountered. "I didn't 'succeed' because of fortuitous circumstances it was all my own hard work". If we start thinking that other people may have "failed" because of uncontrollable circumstances it may lead people to think we didn't succeed because of our own agency.
I've worked for a few 'self made' men in my time. Two of those who claimed most loudly that they'd built themselves up from nothing had inherited small but successful businesses and built them up during boom periods for their respective industries. This isn't to denigrate the achievement that building them up represents of course, but being in the right industry, at the right time with the infrastructure and relationships in place is obviously a much better starting point than not.

I seen it a lot in entrepreneurs who came from comfortable backgrounds and succeeded in unrelated fields too, they rarely seem to recognise how much of a part that may have played, having a roof over their head and food on the table even if they weren't making money at that time, parents, family and family friends with the means to invest in them, family contacts sometimes, simply the belief of those around you that you can succeed, none of these things made them a success, but they smoothed some of the potential obstacles.

One person I know (and work for) who owns his own wine merchants really did start out from as close to nothing financially as I can can imagine, he literally started on his private credit cards, his story is really interesting as he came from an underprivileged background, joined the Army and was assigned to the Officer's Mess where he learned about, and discovered an interest in and aptitude for fine wines. When he left the Army he went into wine sales and the rest is history. What I find most interesting about his story is what a part luck played in it, had it not been for a chance posting his life would have taken a very different path.
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Old 23rd December 2019, 09:08 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think some of that is our natural inclination to ascribe agency to ourselves when it is simply the circumstances we encountered. "I didn't 'succeed' because of fortuitous circumstances it was all my own hard work". If we start thinking that other people may have "failed" because of uncontrollable circumstances it may lead people to think we didn't succeed because of our own agency.
I think that explains the more moderate disdain.

I think there has to be survivor guilt issues to become really nasty about it.

It comes up a lot with me since I moved back home. I'm constantly seeing people I went to school with and/or their children in jail and poverty and the idea that I can look back and see a lot of ways I wouldn't have been any different is scary. It makes me feel guilty and anxious.

The easiest way to deal with that is to just find reasons to find them contemptible and not worthy of a better life. I kinda wish I were capable of that.
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Old 24th December 2019, 07:47 PM   #74
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Something today made me think about this thread. I'll skip the details of why I was watching a full broadcast version of Superbowl XIII with my father, but we were.

It was a game between the Steelers and Cowboys, and one of the more iconic sporting contests of the 1970s. There were a ton of storylines leading to this. The history between the two teams, their relative dominance, the contrasts in coaching styles, blah blah blah.

When you watch a 41 year old game like this a lot of things stand out. The production values, hairstyles, how small the players are, how they joke about concussions, and so on.

What got me is something they didn't do, and that was mention Rocky Blier's backstory. Which if you know what that is, mull that over. and how Blier would be deified today. If you don't, let me lay out the general story:


Blier was a running back for the Steelers. He was mostly the blocking back for Franco Harris, but he also would carry the ball and catch passes. He was the kind of guy the stereotypical conservative football fan loves. Makes up for lack of talent with hard work, does the little things the team needs to win, all the Dad cliches. Plus he was white and conservative white football fans love them some scrappy white dude.

He also went to Notre Dame. He was drafted by the Pittsburgh Steelers, and then after a promising rookie season was drafted by Uncle Sam. He went into the Army and volunteered for infantry duty in Vietnam. So already we have the kind of guy that is loved by those people that think athletes are greedy and ungrateful. But wait, there is more.

While there, he was shot in the leg. Despite his wound he continued to provide cover fire for his comrades, and as a result had a grenade go off near his leg. He lost part of his right foot. Standard "maybe you will walk right again but lol @ playing football" stuff from doctors.

So, of course, he, through an amazing amount of hard work (and obviously steroids because the amount of workouts he was putting himself through was inhuman by any standards but nobody thought about that back then) he was able to return to football and became a important part of a Steeler team that won four Superbowls in six years.

In Superbowl 13, he made spectacular touchdown catch to put the Steelers in the lead and then also iced the game with an onside kick recovery. Plus he did other little things. Not the star of the game, just the scrappy white guy from Notre Dame who volunteered for infantry duty and lost part of his foot in combat but persevered and through sweat, tears, and two different size shoes reclaimed the life he thought he lost in a rice paddy who helped the team win for the love of the game.


Now... consider that in today's world. The militarization of the US and NFL, how we glorify the military. How often does Blier's story get brought up during a Superbowl? Every time he touches the Ball and three more times each half?

I mean, they turned Pat Tillman into a saint even before he got killed. Imagine that story except Tillman loses part of his foot and eight years later makes several key plays in a Superbowl victory. They'd have renamed the league after him.

They didn't mention Blier's story once during that broadcast. Not one time.
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Old 25th December 2019, 06:32 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I kinda wish I were capable of that.

Why?!
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Old 25th December 2019, 06:53 AM   #76
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

And now we're going to have a pile-on by people who insist that this is theft and it should be entirely up to them who they want to give money to and if they want to let the diabetic guy die that's their right. Carry on.
Taxation is theft
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Old 25th December 2019, 07:00 AM   #77
Ron Obvious
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Taxation is theft
Ignorance is strength
War is peace
Freedom is slavery
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Old 25th December 2019, 07:48 AM   #78
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Ignorance is strength
War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Rhythm is a dancer.
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Old 25th December 2019, 09:04 AM   #79
Manger Douse
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Rhythm is a dancer.
And as serious as cancer
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Old 25th December 2019, 12:24 PM   #80
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Rhythm is a dancer.
But,

Are human, or are we dancer?
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