ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags abortion issues , adoption issues

Reply
Old 4th December 2019, 07:58 AM   #81
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,361
Don't men (and women) already have the right to have no involvement beyond paying child support?
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:01 AM   #82
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I feel that if someone choose a not to wear their seatbelt they should have to pay their own medical costs for their face going through the windshield. Likewise if a person doesn't want a child they can avail themselves of a whole array of methods not to. That the available methods vary by sex hardly justifies one sex from failing to use the methods it does have available.

Given that there is no such thing as infallible birth control, you're suggesting abstinence?

Hell, you don't even need to actually have sex for the lady to end up pregnant.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 08:04 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:07 AM   #83
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Given that there is no such thing as infallible birth control, you're suggesting abstinence?
No. I suggested using one or more of the many available methods and technologies that mitigate risk. As nothing in life is certain there is the possibility they will fail, but that is not an excuse to not try. As in all things, do your best, but if you fail accept it, do the right thing, learn from mistakes, and move on.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:08 AM   #84
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
I don't like the way "Making sensible life decisions" is being painted as "Running away from one's responsibilities."


Within a teenage couple, entirely unsuitable for parenthood, she wants to keep it, he knows it will wreck both their lives going forward. She has the child and he's the one 'running away from his responsibilities'? and who should 'pay for failing to control his biological urges'


To those who believe that it is appropriate to press a baby and all that responsibility onto a young man as a form of punishment or compensation for not being able to keep it in his pants, I say **** you. In the strongest possible terms, **** you. A young baby, a whole life is not something to be used to punish a man because he had sex and his contraception didn't work. What a ****** way to start a life, what a ****** thing to do to use a baby as a form of punishment or as a teachable moment. **** you.



In a number of cases of which I'm aware it's nothing to do with him running away from anything. He has an understanding of the situation. In this instance it's often the lady concerned who is failing to properly control her biological urges by unwisely choosing to have a baby in circumstances that are not appropriate.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 08:11 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:12 AM   #85
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 89,404
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Given that there is no such thing as infallible birth control, you're suggesting abstinence?

Hell, you don't even need to actually have sex for the lady to end up pregnant.
Some acts carry risks, heterosexual sex between fertile people is one of those acts. It is your choice whether to accept that risk or not.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:12 AM   #86
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't like the way "Making sensible life decisions" is being painted as "Running away from one's responsibilities."


Within a teenage couple, entirely unsuitable for parenthood, she wants to keep it, he knows it will wreck both their lives going forward. She has the child and he's the one 'running away from his responsibilities'? and who should 'pay for failing to control his biological urges'


To those who believe that it is appropriate to press a baby and all that responsibility onto a young man as a form of punishment or compensation for not being able to keep it in his pants, I say **** you. In the strongest possible terms, **** you. A young baby, a whole life is not something to be used to punish a man because he had sex and his contraception didn't work. What a ****** way to start a life, what a ****** thing to do to use a baby as a form of punishment or as a teachable moment. **** you.



In a number of cases of which I'm aware it's nothing to do with him running away from anything. He has an understanding of the situation. In this instance it's often the lady concerned who is failing to properly control her biological urges by unwisely choosing to have a baby in circumstances that are not appropriate.
It's up the individual to determine what is or isn't appropriate for the lives. Hence we let them make their own choices, even if we think they're wrong.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:12 AM   #87
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No. I suggested using one or more of the many available methods and technologies that mitigate risk. As nothing in life is certain there is the possibility they will fail, but that is not an excuse to not try. As in all things, do your best, but if you fail accept it, do the right thing, learn from mistakes, and move on.

The logical conclusion of this is that young men - well, all men - should not have sex with any lady with whom they are not prepared to have a child.


Good luck with that. I can't see it working out for you at all. You can try to change the fundamental nature of human beings into what you think they should be, but you won't succeed. Maye we should talk about what actually happens in the real world?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:14 AM   #88
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's up the individual to determine what is or isn't appropriate for the lives. Hence we let them make their own choices, even if we think they're wrong.
But we don't let them make their own choices. We're very specifically talking about someone having a choice forced upon them. This thread is literally about some people not getting to make a choice.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:16 AM   #89
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Some acts carry risks, heterosexual sex between fertile people is one of those acts. It is your choice whether to accept that risk or not.

You don't need to have sex for someone to get pregnant

You don't need to fail to use contraception for someone to get pregnant.


Let's talk about the real world, shall we, not yours and Monkey's mental one where contraception always works and accidents don't happen and where teenage men and women are in perfect control of their biological instincts all the time.



Good god, you're both living in fantasyland.

If you want people, men in particular, to be punished for having sex just say so, eh?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:18 AM   #90
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's up the individual to determine what is or isn't appropriate for the lives.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Can you see the issue with what you've said above in the context of this thread?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:19 AM   #91
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The logical conclusion of this is that young men - well, all men - should not have sex with any lady with whom they are not prepared to have a child.


Good luck with that. I can't see it working out for you at all. You can try to change the fundamental nature of human beings into what you think they should be, but you won't succeed. Maye we should talk about what actually happens in the real world?
No, that is not the logical conclusion. You could get into a car wreck and be killed. We mitigate that risk with traffic laws, technology, tests, inspections, licensing, and safety devices. Those things are not 100% effective, the possibility of death in car wrecks always remains. Do you therefore never get into a car? Is the "logical conclusion" to anything ever "if an activity isn't guaranteed 100% perfect outcome it's not worth doing"?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:20 AM   #92
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But we don't let them make their own choices. We're very specifically talking about someone having a choice forced upon them. This thread is literally about some people not getting to make a choice.
They did have a choice. Several, in fact. That they played the odds and lost doesn't mean they didn't choose to gamble. Such is life.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:24 AM   #93
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You don't need to have sex for someone to get pregnant

You don't need to fail to use contraception for someone to get pregnant.


Let's talk about the real world, shall we, not yours and Monkey's mental one where contraception always works and accidents don't happen and where teenage men and women are in perfect control of their biological instincts all the time.



Good god, you're both living in fantasyland.

If you want people, men in particular, to be punished for having sex just say so, eh?
What a collection of strawmen! I never said contraception always works. I said it mitigates the risk. That it's not 100% perfect is not a reason not to use it. And pregnancy is certainly not a "punishment" for anyone. It may be an undesired outcome of multiple choices made by two people. Which is why they should take steps to reduce the probability of that outcome.

If anything I think people should have more sex, but they should be smart about it.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:27 AM   #94
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No, that is not the logical conclusion. You could get into a car wreck and be killed. We mitigate that risk with traffic laws, technology, tests, inspections, licensing, and safety devices. Those things are not 100% effective, the possibility of death in car wrecks always remains. Do you therefore never get into a car? Is the "logical conclusion" to anything ever "if an activity isn't guaranteed 100% perfect outcome it's not worth doing"?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that if a young man has a plan, he wtans to go to college or start a business or travel the world and write a book, then he had better not have sex, ever, with anyone because if he does, and the lady falls pregnant, he now has a financial burden that will affect him for the rest of his life, he probably can't go to college, start a business or travel the world as x% of his income now garnished and he can't borrow or save the money he needs to get started.

And your attitude is "It serves him right for having sex"


You are literally advocating delivering a massive responsibility onto a young man who knows he cannot handle it. You're using a whole human life to punish him. That's horrific.

He's done everything right, used contraception, possibly not even actually had sex but you think he deserves it because he had sex.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:28 AM   #95
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I wholeheartedly agree.

Can you see the issue with what you've said above in the context of this thread?
I see that if someone wants X outcome and not Y outcome they should take what steps they deem appropriate to shift the probabilities toward X happening and reduce the probability of Y. The worse they consider Y outcome to be the more effort they should put into avoiding it. Isn't that the rational course?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:31 AM   #96
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that if a young man has a plan, he wtans to go to college or start a business or travel the world and write a book, then he had better not have sex, ever, with anyone because if he does, and the lady falls pregnant, he now has a financial burden that will affect him for the rest of his life, he probably can't go to college, start a business or travel the world as x% of his income now garnished and he can't borrow or save the money he needs to get started.

And your attitude is "It serves him right for having sex"


You are literally advocating delivering a massive responsibility onto a young man who knows he cannot handle it. You're using a whole human life to punish him. That's horrific.

He's done everything right, used contraception, possibly not even actually had sex but you think he deserves it because he had sex.
It's "horrific" to say that people should use their reason to assess risk, take action to mitigate those risks, and accept the consequences of their actions?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:33 AM   #97
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They did have a choice. Several, in fact. That they played the odds and lost doesn't mean they didn't choose to gamble. Such is life.

Gambling = having completely consensual sex while using appropriate contraception.

Or even not even actually having sex at all.

I don't accept that. This just seems like gleeful delivery of punishment using a human life to do so. I think that's horrific.

What you're actually saying is 'Don't have sex'. You view having to fund umpteen years of a baby's life, along with all that brings as just punishment for the act of sex during which a condom splits.


It's like I'm talking to the catholic church here.




Perhaps, not playing this game, your perception is awry?
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 08:34 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:37 AM   #98
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I see that if someone wants X outcome and not Y outcome they should take what steps they deem appropriate to shift the probabilities toward X happening and reduce the probability of Y. The worse they consider Y outcome to be the more effort they should put into avoiding it. Isn't that the rational course?

The rational choice, according to how you have it is not to have sex.

No matter the contraception, pregnancy may arise.

According to you that's just bad luck, take your lumps, pay for this fatherless child for 20 years, wreck your life, you had sex, you deserve it.

Therefore, the rational choice is abstinence. It's the only way to avoid entirely the possibility of you standing there with a smug look on your face saying "Serves you right, should have made better choices"

Anything other than abstinence runs this risk.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:46 AM   #99
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Gambling = having completely consensual sex while using appropriate contraception.

Or even not even actually having sex at all.

I don't accept that. This just seems like gleeful delivery of punishment using a human life to do so. I think that's horrific.

What you're actually saying is 'Don't have sex'. You view having to fund umpteen years of a baby's life, along with all that brings as just punishment for the act of sex during which a condom splits.


It's like I'm talking to the catholic church here.




Perhaps, not playing this game, your perception is awry?
You really don't get me at all. Yes, having sex is gambling. The possible outcomes are: nothing, an STD, a pregnancy, or both an STD and a pregnancy. There exist methods of reducing changing the odds: condoms, the pill, IUDs, vasectomy, using a different orifice. Those methods possess differing rates of probable success. They are not guaranteed perfect success because nothing in life is guaranteed perfect success. Whether employing any/some/none of these methods to mitigate the risk is up to the two individuals involved. Whether the resulting odds of an unfavorable outcome make the activity worth doing is, again, up to the two individuals. Whether they realize it or not it will always be a gamble. Every action possible is a gamble, the pursuit of one possible outcome gambled against the probability of other outcomes. That has nothing to do with fairness, or deserving, or punishment. It's an inexorable reality of existence. Whining about that won't help.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:50 AM   #100
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The rational choice, according to how you have it is not to have sex.

No matter the contraception, pregnancy may arise.

According to you that's just bad luck, take your lumps, pay for this fatherless child for 20 years, wreck your life, you had sex, you deserve it.

Therefore, the rational choice is abstinence. It's the only way to avoid entirely the possibility of you standing there with a smug look on your face saying "Serves you right, should have made better choices"

Anything other than abstinence runs this risk.
For the third or fourth time, no. That is not what I'm saying, it's not what I said. You are the one interpreting "a risk exists with that activity" to mean "never do that activity". That is not a rational way to approach risk. There is risk in every activity, it can be mitigated but not eliminated. If you only do activities with zero possible risk you will do nothing at all. You can't even lay in bed unmoving because there's a risk of bedsores!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 08:57 AM   #101
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You really don't get me at all. Yes, having sex is gambling. The possible outcomes are: nothing, an STD, a pregnancy, or both an STD and a pregnancy. There exist methods of reducing changing the odds: condoms, the pill, IUDs, vasectomy, using a different orifice. Those methods possess differing rates of probable success. They are not guaranteed perfect success because nothing in life is guaranteed perfect success. Whether employing any/some/none of these methods to mitigate the risk is up to the two individuals involved. Whether the resulting odds of an unfavorable outcome make the activity worth doing is, again, up to the two individuals. Whether they realize it or not it will always be a gamble. Every action possible is a gamble, the pursuit of one possible outcome gambled against the probability of other outcomes. That has nothing to do with fairness, or deserving, or punishment. It's an inexorable reality of existence. Whining about that won't help.


I'm entirely getting you. You think that any man not prepared to be a father should not have sex. As you outline above. As you say, "sex is a gamble". (but only for the man).


I'm not whining. I'm pointing out what your position, logically, leads a young man to conclude. That he should be celibate if he does not want to be a father. You describe exactly that above, but you're not prepared to arrive at the conclusion of your argument because you know it makes you seem like a puritan.

Have the courage of your convictions and state, as you intimate above, that you believe that people who are not prepared to (or cannot afford to or by dint of other circumstances, really are poorly placed to) have a baby should not have any sort of sexual contact. (Sex is not a prerequisite for pregnancy)
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 08:59 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:04 AM   #102
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
For the third or fourth time, no. That is not what I'm saying, it's not what I said. You are the one interpreting "a risk exists with that activity" to mean "never do that activity". That is not a rational way to approach risk.

If the risk is "The end of all my plans for life", then jesus christ yes it is.



Quote:
There is risk in every activity, it can be mitigated but not eliminated. If you only do activities with zero possible risk you will do nothing at all. You can't even lay in bed unmoving because there's a risk of bedsores!
The risks of other activities are not fundamentally life changing with the possibility of ruining all you've been working for or planned.

When the risk is literally your whole suite of hopes and dreams for life, then yes, the logical course is not to undertake the activity.

Especially when, after our young man does everything he should to mitigate that risk and it still occurs, there's people like you standing there with that smug expression with "Well, I know you wanted to go to college, get an education, make your mom and dad proud and do all the things you're supposed to as a young man but you had sex and got unlucky, so you can't. Serves you right"
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 09:05 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:05 AM   #103
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm entirely getting you. You think that any man not prepared to be a father should not have sex. As you outline above. As you say, "sex is a gamble". (but only for the man).


I'm not whining. I'm pointing out what your position, logically, leads a young man to conclude. That he should be celibate if he does not want to be a father. You describe exactly that above, but you're not prepared to arrive at the conclusion of your argument because you know it makes you seem like a puritan.

Have the courage of your convictions and state, as you intimate above, that you believe that people who are not prepared to (or cannot afford to or by dint of other circumstances, really are poorly placed to) have a baby should not have any sort of sexual contact. (Sex is not a prerequisite for pregnancy)
Jesus Christ, how are you not getting this? Use a condom and do anal, or bareback in her mouth! That's pretty damn good mitigation of the risk of pregnancy. And if that's a Puritan stance then history is being taught really wrongly.

And where are you getting pregnancy without sex? Are you postulating human parthogenesis happens frequently? Or are you fantasizing a scenario where a scheming babycrazy lady with a turkey baster steals the dude's semen?

Risk exists. Everything is a gamble. Take whatever steps you seem desirable to sway the odds. If you're so paranoid about potential pregnancy you abstain entirely, that's fine, that's a valid choice. It's not the only choice, and many people are perfectly comfortable playing slightly worse odds using aforementioned methods to mitigate risk.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:06 AM   #104
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,243
When you rob Peter to pay Paul, Peter wants to make it about fairness, Paul wants to make it about rightness.

When you rob Paul to pay Peter, Paul is gonna want to make it about fairness, Peter is going to want to make it about rightness.

And since in no argument does anyone want to argue against fairness or rightness, we go nowhere.

Yes men should have the same obligation to children they didn't want to have and the same options to not have them as women.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:17 AM   #105
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Jesus Christ, how are you not getting this? Use a condom and do anal, or bareback in her mouth! That's pretty damn good mitigation of the risk of pregnancy. And if that's a Puritan stance then history is being taught really wrongly.
All of these things can lead to accidental pregnancy.


Quote:
And where are you getting pregnancy without sex? Are you postulating human parthogenesis happens frequently? Or are you fantasizing a scenario where a scheming babycrazy lady with a turkey baster steals the dude's semen?
https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-que...t-penetration/

"Can I get pregnant if I have sex without penetration?

Yes, although the risk of getting pregnant in this way is very low. If you want to avoid getting pregnant, you should use contraception."



Quote:
Risk exists. Everything is a gamble. Take whatever steps you seem desirable to sway the odds. If you're so paranoid about potential pregnancy you abstain entirely, that's fine, that's a valid choice. It's not the only choice,
It is the only choice if you want to be sure. How effective do you think condoms are anyway?


Quote:
and many people are perfectly comfortable playing slightly worse odds using aforementioned methods to mitigate risk.
And lots of young men end up being fathers when they don't want to be.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:20 AM   #106
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
All of these things can lead to accidental pregnancy.




https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-que...t-penetration/

"Can I get pregnant if I have sex without penetration?

Yes, although the risk of getting pregnant in this way is very low. If you want to avoid getting pregnant, you should use contraception."





It is the only choice if you want to be sure. How effective do you think condoms are anyway?




And lots of young men end up being fathers when they don't want to be.
Risk exists. Take steps to mitigate those risks. Perfect guarantees of success do not exist. Make informed choices. Accept the consequences and handle them appropriately.

If you're not mature enough to understand how reality works and deal with it then maybe you're not ready to be having sex?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:47 AM   #107
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,243
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you're not mature enough to understand how reality works and deal with it then maybe you're not ready to be having sex?
Okay. Put that on a placard and march around outside an abortion clinic, you'll fit right in.

We're almost at a male version of the slut argument at this point.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 09:55 AM   #108
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Risk exists. Take steps to mitigate those risks. Perfect guarantees of success do not exist. Make informed choices. Accept the consequences and handle them appropriately.

If you're not mature enough to understand how reality works and deal with it then maybe you're not ready to be having sex?

I can see that that's going to work.

Teenagers are famously analytical at times of high horniness.

I'm sure they can absolutely stop being human because you think they should.


Bottom line is this

The lack of ability for a man to check out completely of a baby's life leads many young women who shouldn't to choose to have babies. Those babies, particularly in countries with abysmal social safety nets (and even in those countries with good ones) then grow up poor, underprivileged and without a father. Or with a resentful father. Or an abusive one.


People are quite good at knowing if they're going to be good parents. And when they're not.

Young ladies are terrible at controlling their biological urges. They also have grossly unrealistic expectations about how they can change a man. Young men then have their entire lives ruined.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 09:58 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 10:48 AM   #109
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Put that on a placard and march around outside an abortion clinic, you'll fit right in.

We're almost at a male version of the slut argument at this point.
Really? I seem to be the only one aware that people have multiple orifices for sex. And that sounds like anti abortion slut shaming to you?

It's entirely possible to be promiscuous and smart about it. I can personally attest to it. I've had more than the average number of sex partners and have contracted zero STDs to date. How is this possible? By mitigating the risks.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 10:52 AM   #110
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Put that on a placard and march around outside an abortion clinic, you'll fit right in.

We're almost at a male version of the slut argument at this point.


Yeah, with the same 'Well, they deserved it for being so slutty' bit tacked on.

I do note that the most vocal advocate of "they get what they deserve, the condom split, deal with it, your life is wrecked but that's allowed because you had sex" is one for whom the discussion actually doesn't apply.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 10:53 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 10:56 AM   #111
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,223
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, with the same 'Well, they deserved it for being so slutty' bit tacked on.

I do note that the most vocal advocate of "they get what they deserve, the condom split, deal with it, your life is wrecked but that's allowed because you had sex" is one for whom the discussion actually doesn't apply.
Yeah, the worst that can happen to me is a painful humiliating death. So I clearly know nothing of risk mitigation and safe sex.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 11:06 AM   #112
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,630
I like this thread simply for the fact that TM is having to stake out the reality based argument. Luckily he is flexible enough to pull it off.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 11:24 AM   #113
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,656
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
For the third or fourth time, no. That is not what I'm saying, it's not what I said. You are the one interpreting "a risk exists with that activity" to mean "never do that activity". That is not a rational way to approach risk.
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If the risk is "The end of all my plans for life", then jesus christ yes it is.

The risks of other activities are not fundamentally life changing with the possibility of ruining all you've been working for or planned.

When the risk is literally your whole suite of hopes and dreams for life, then yes, the logical course is not to undertake the activity.

Oh, cool, I’m glad to find out that life altering (or fatal) car accidents aren’t a thing.

So do you never travel at all then? Mennonite maybe?
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 11:25 AM   #114
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, the worst that can happen to me is a painful humiliating death. So I clearly know nothing of risk mitigation and safe sex.

I have all the sympathy in the world with the plight of those who are and have been systematically ****** by the establishment and by segments of society, but that's just not relevant to the topic in hand.


What is, perhaps, relevant is that you're countenancing risks and consequences that you yourself never have to undertake.


My logic is outcome based. I'm not really looking for fairness or equality. What I'm looking for is the best possible outcome in less than perfect circumstances. I don't care about "Oh, he shouldn't have had sex, he should live with the consequences", I care about the quality of the lives of those people that have found themselves in those circumstances.

Nobody wants a reluctant father. No mother, no child, no partner.

Some ladies want to raise babies on their own, and that's fine, they can make a logical, sensible decision and then do what they need to do.

But babies born to absent fathers, who never wanted them, begged their partner to terminate and know that they are not emotionally or financially ready to be a father, they get a rough, rough ride. It's a **** way to start a life and it's something that happens far too often because hormone filled teenage ladies decide that they can force a teenage man to stay with them, force him to pay for the child and change him to being their perfect lover, partner and father.

Fewer ladies would follow their base biological urges and have babies that they are ill suited to look after if they weren't in a position to literally force a teenage boy into fatherhood.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 11:27 AM   #115
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Oh, cool, I’m glad to find out that life altering (or fatal) car accidents aren’t a thing.

So do you never travel at all then? Mennonite maybe?

Whatever you think this slam dunk is isn't making sense to me at all.

Sorry.


My point is that accidents are going to happen and we should legislate for the best possible outcome thereafter. The opposing point seems to be 'Accidents happen, live with it, sucks to be you, you had sex, I'm therefore happy the rest of your life is ruined'.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 4th December 2019 at 11:29 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 11:44 AM   #116
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,656
Are people’s entire lives really ruined by paying child support for one child? I know a couple guys who pay it and they complain occasionally but their lives don’t look ruined.

ETA looks like the main people who get really screwed are people in prison going into ridiculous arrears. That ought to be changed a bit, yikes.

Last edited by Lithrael; 4th December 2019 at 11:45 AM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 12:01 PM   #117
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,049
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Are people’s entire lives really ruined by paying child support for one child?
Yes

Quote:
I know a couple guys who pay it and they complain occasionally but their lives don’t look ruined.
I'm not saying it does for everyone, but for those right at the bottom, for those who are on a knife edge, yes, yes it does.


Quote:
ETA looks like the main people who get really screwed are people in prison going into ridiculous arrears. That ought to be changed a bit, yikes.
So, locked up, making no money, costing the state a fortune, small baby with 'father in prison' stigma and the child sill has only one parent and one income. And for a fair proportion of those there's a young mother sat at home gobsmacked that he left because, although he said he would, she never believed it (because she was eight weeks pregnant and not thinking straight)

These people would literally rather go to prison than have anything to do with their unwanted child. I'm thinking paper abortions might be worth considering.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 12:01 PM   #118
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,656
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Whatever you think this slam dunk is isn't making sense to me at all.
You seemed to be saying that any activity that carries the risk of fundamentally altering your life in a bad way should just not be done. So no sex, to make sure you are never saddled with child support payments, and also no use of any transportation, to make sure you are never seriously injured or killed in a transportation accident. Better not walk near any roads either really.

Quote:
My point is that accidents are going to happen and we should legislate for the best possible outcome thereafter.
Well, you really can’t legislate that she be required to terminate her pregnancy, that’s just too far into heebie-jeebies land. So there’s a kid that needs taken care of. General wisdom is that the hierarchy for best results for the kid are: 2 willing bio parents > 1 willing bio parent > 2 willing parents > 1 willing parent > foster, so, if the mother wants the job (and isn’t wildly awful) she should get it. So there’s a single mother with a kid that needs taken care of. Personally I’d be totally fine with the state picking up that tab rather than the dad, but I don’t run things. Plus you do want to encourage the dad to be involved if possible, which as far as I gather is the point of the way child support is calculated partly on how much time the kid is spending with each parent. Whether the state should be trying to reward a father for spending time with a kid (or whether this is an effective way to do that) is another debate.

Last edited by Lithrael; 4th December 2019 at 12:06 PM.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 12:04 PM   #119
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,552
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And for a fair proportion of those there's a young mother sat at home gobsmacked that he left because, although he said he would, she never believed it (because she was eight weeks pregnant and not thinking straight)
Boy howdy I'd love to see any evidence that is even a significantly common motivation for single women to carry unplanned pregnancies to term.

Emotional, conniving women trying to lock down a man with a baby smacks of MRA horse-****.

Smearing pregnant women as hormonally driven, hysterical women is pretty gross.

I could see a world where paper abortions is an acceptable option, but many other elements would have to be in place. One big hurdle is the fact that the general morality of abortion is an undecided question. Roe v. Wade makes it legal in some cases, but a significant portion of the population, including many women, see abortion as akin to infanticide, so it's not really an option. Given that many state governments see it this way as well and make it deliberately difficult, if not impossible, to access abortion, it's often not a reasonable option for many women.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 4th December 2019 at 12:11 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2019, 12:09 PM   #120
Lithrael
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,656
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
So, locked up, making no money, costing the state a fortune, small baby with 'father in prison' stigma and the child sill has only one parent and one income. And for a fair proportion of those there's a young mother sat at home gobsmacked that he left because, although he said he would, she never believed it (because she was eight weeks pregnant and not thinking straight)

These people would literally rather go to prison than have anything to do with their unwanted child. I'm thinking paper abortions might be worth considering.
Wait WHAT?

Do you think Iím talking about people in prison FOR not paying child support?

I was just looking at articles by people suggesting the arrears system be looked at because if you end up in jail for whatever reason you usually end up behind on child support and arrears can be brutal.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:37 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.