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Tags abortion issues , adoption issues

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Old 6th December 2019, 07:48 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think that's the whole point that people are trying to make to you: you can't solve human behaviour by asking people to act inhumanly.

And since you're too bored to look back, here's my earlier point: yes, sex is a bit unique. Not because it's magical, but because it's such a fundamental aspect of life. In fact, reproduction might be the most fundamental thing about all life forms. So it might require very specific solutions to its related issues, ones that don't require people to act like they're not alive.
"Use a condom" is an inhumanly difficult task? That is news to me. I've used condoms many times. Am I somehow superhuman? (Some have said so, but I think that was endorphins and afterglow.)
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:49 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Use a condom" is an inhumanity difficult task?
AGAIN you're putting words in my mouth. What's wrong with you?

I didn't say anything about condoms or about difficult tasks.

For ****'s sake is it that hard to read posts with any other optics than finding something to disagree with?
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:54 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
AGAIN you're putting words in my mouth. What's wrong with you?

I didn't say anything about condoms or about difficult tasks.

For ****'s sake is it that hard to read posts with any other optics than finding something to disagree with?
What then is the "inhuman" behavior you said I'm asking people to do? What's wrong with you is vaguely alluding to what you want to accuse me of then getting mad when I haven't read your mind.
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:58 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What then is the "inhuman" behavior you said I'm asking people to do?
It was a general statement, not one directed at you. And in the general, the idea that people should practice abstinence is sure one I'd call borderline inhuman.

Quote:
What's wrong with you is vaguely alluding to what you want to accuse me of then getting mad when I haven't read your mind.
But you don't need to TRY to read my mind over and over. I don't understand this tendency that you have of trying to ascertain what other thoughts I might have that I didn't post. Why not just limit yourself to what's written?
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:05 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It was a general statement, not one directed at you. And in the general, the idea that people should practice abstinence is sure one I'd call borderline inhuman.
Since I didn't and don't advocate abstinence your general statement has nothing to do with me. I don't see why im expected to defend a position I'm not taking, or why you imagine I should. Don't quote specific posts to argue against something they don't say then wonder why anybody's confused by your remarks.

Quote:

But you don't need to TRY to read my mind over and over. I don't understand this tendency that you have of trying to ascertain what other thoughts I might have that I didn't post. Why not just limit yourself to what's written?
I mean this in the nicest possible way but perhaps the problem isn't with me. Have you not noticed that many threads in which you participate end up in the same place? You complaining people aren't responding to what you're saying but what you're saying isn't clear because you are making vague references to previous posts and even, as you admit you just did, quoting some posts to argue against some other point entirely?

Frankly: nobody can limit themselves to what's written if what's written isn't clear.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:16 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Since I didn't and don't advocate abstinence your general statement has nothing to do with me.
That's what I just said.

Quote:
I don't see why im expected to defend a position I'm not taking
I didn't ask you to defend it.

My specific point to you is that your solutions (e.g. using other orifices) might not be realistic.

Quote:
I mean this in the nicest possible way but perhaps the problem isn't with me.
I'm shocked that you think our disagreement isn't your fault.

Quote:
Have you not noticed that many threads in which you participate end up in the same place?
Yes, I've noticed that strawmen are very often used by a number of posters, deliberately or not. Some (not you) have even become experts at doing that. Maybe it's a result of the environment, I don't know. I do know that I'm far from the only 'victim' and I often have to point it out for others as well.

Quote:
Frankly: nobody can limit themselves to what's written if what's written isn't clear.
Of course they can. They can ask for clarification rather than wildly speculating. There's no reason why one should make up their own answers when none are provided. That's religious thinking.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:18 AM   #167
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Get a room, you two.

Anyway it sounds like the States could learn a lot from the way the UK does it.

We do seem to have a lot of stuff where relatively poor people end up in extremely discouraging debt and/or prison for no astonishingly good reason.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:29 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Get a room, you two.
Yes, how dare the two of us publicly disagree on the topic!
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:35 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's what I just said.







I didn't ask you to defend it.



My specific point to you is that your solutions (e.g. using other orifices) might not be realistic.







I'm shocked that you think our disagreement isn't your fault.







Yes, I've noticed that strawmen are very often used by a number of posters, deliberately or not. Some (not you) have even become experts at doing that. Maybe it's a result of the environment, I don't know. I do know that I'm far from the only 'victim' and I often have to point it out for others as well.







Of course they can. They can ask for clarification rather than wildly speculating. There's no reason why one should make up their own answers when none are provided. That's religious thinking.
Tragicmonkey has not offered any "solution".

What he has said numerous times is that there are ways to reduce the risk of pregnancy when two fertile people of the opposite sex have a sexual encounter.

He has also said those ways are not 100% risk free.

He has also said that if two fertile people of different sex have a sexual encounter they have to accept a risk that a child may be the outcome of that encounter despite their precautions as it is not possible for two fertile people of the opposite sex to have a sexual encounter that is a 100% free of the risk of a child being the outcome.

Now please don't go quote mining his post with a "ah he put a comma there so that means.." rubbish. The above is his clearly offered opinions.

What do you disagree with him regarding the above.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:40 AM   #170
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Moving on.

Ultimately the solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy will be technological. The invention of effective but extremely easy and foolproof contraception which is then socially engineered to widespread adoption. For instance, reversible sterilization via a one-time ingestion of nanobots. Government could offer a payment of a few hundred bucks to young teenagers who undergo it, to encourage it. Then if they ever want to reproduce both parties can have the procedure reversed.

"That sounds sci-fi dystopian!" I can hear some thinking. Like anything humans ever do yes, such a system could be abused. On the other hand it would be very very popular because we'd essentially be paying people to make their own sex lives much easier.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:44 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Tragicmonkey has not offered any "solution".

What he has said numerous times is that there are ways to reduce the risk of pregnancy when two fertile people of the opposite sex have a sexual encounter.

He has also said those ways are not 100% risk free.
Darat, a way to reduce risk is a sort of solution, like seatbelts are a solution to car deaths. Of course nothing is risk free. I think you misunderstand what I'm disagreeing with TM on.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:45 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Moving on.

Ultimately the solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy will be technological.
Mine too: sterilise the deplorables.



I kid, I kid.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:47 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Darat, a way to reduce risk is a sort of solution, like seatbelts are a solution to car deaths. Of course nothing is risk free. I think you misunderstand what I'm disagreeing with TM on.
Your response shows you don't know what Tragicmonkey has been saying over many posts.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:53 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your response shows you don't know what Tragicmonkey has been saying over many posts.
Again: you don't seem to know what I'm disagreeing with him on.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:58 AM   #175
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I suggest we move back to discussing the topic instead of discussing the discussion.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:59 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I suggest we move back to discussing the topic instead of discussing the discussion.
Fine, let's.
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:42 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I suggest we move back to discussing the topic instead of discussing the discussion.
In a world where "paper abortions" were a thing, how many children to how many different women would a man be allowed to have without supporting them?
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Old 6th December 2019, 07:54 PM   #178
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One question relevant to the topic is simply the pragmatic one: would paper abortions lead to better or worse outcomes for all concerned?

3point14 has made the point that if men who were not interested in or incapable of the responsibilities of fatherhood could get a "paper abortion", this might discourage their partners from carrying the pregnancy to term. That seems like a good outcome, better than struggling single mothers and absent fathers.

On the other hand, many of those women will nevertheless carry those children to term. In that case the situation is worse because now the woman is raising the child without even the child support payments of the father. I think we all agree that at this point it's a worse outcome?

The question seems to be, at the population level which outcome will tend to occur, and are children, in general and on average, better or worse off? I don't know the answer but it seems more relevant to me than much of the focus of the discussion so far.
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Old 6th December 2019, 08:30 PM   #179
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Actually the whole idea of paper abortions is redundant.

Vasectamies are the best option to avoid pregnancies, and these days vasectamies can be reversed with a very high success rate. They are actually slightly more comparable to an actual abortion that a woman may feel compelled to undergo once she is served a "paper abortion notice."

They could have vasectomy clinics like they have abortion clinics.

Reversable vasectomies are the most equitable option.
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Old 6th December 2019, 11:41 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Actually the whole idea of paper abortions is redundant.

Vasectamies are the best option to avoid pregnancies, and these days vasectamies can be reversed with a very high success rate. They are actually slightly more comparable to an actual abortion that a woman may feel compelled to undergo once she is served a "paper abortion notice."

They could have vasectomy clinics like they have abortion clinics.

Reversable vasectomies are the most equitable option.
A vasectomy doesn't address the problem of what to do once a woman has already become pregnant, unless you've got a time machine as well.
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:34 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Actually the whole idea of paper abortions is redundant.

Vasectamies are the best option to avoid pregnancies, and these days vasectamies can be reversed with a very high success rate. They are actually slightly more comparable to an actual abortion that a woman may feel compelled to undergo once she is served a "paper abortion notice."

They could have vasectomy clinics like they have abortion clinics.

Reversable vasectomies are the most equitable option.
I was not aware that vasectomies are reversible, but if they are, and it isn't prohibitively expensive to do so, that could be a good solution, but more people would need to be made aware of it.

According to Planned Parenthood:

Quote:
How much does a vasectomy cost?

Getting a vasectomy can cost anywhere between $0 and $1,000, including follow-up visits.

The cost of a vasectomy varies and depends on where you get it, what kind you get, and whether or not you have health insurance that will cover some or all of the cost. Vasectomies may be totally free (or low cost) with some health insurance plans, Medicaid, and other government programs.

Even if your vasectomy costs more than other methods up front, it usually ends up saving you money in the long run, because it lasts forever. Vasectomies are about 6 times cheaper than female sterilization.
However, the cost of a vasectomy reversal appears to be considerably higher than the cost of a vasectomy, starting at close to $5,000 and averaging over $10,000, and what's more, it doesn't always work (the longer it's been, the less likely it is result in recovered fertility).

https://www.healthline.com/health/va...sal#candidates

Quote:
Vasectomies may be reversible up to 20 years or longer after the initial procedure. But the longer you wait to reverse a vasectomy, the less likely that youíll be able to have a child after the procedure.
Quote:
Sperm usually start appearing in your semen again a few months after a vasectomy reversal. This increases your chances of getting your partner pregnant. You may need to wait a year or longer before sperm appear again. This may be necessary if your doctor finds any blockage in your vas deferens or epididymis.

Your chances of getting your partner pregnant after reversing a vasectomy can range from 30 to 70 percent. Your chances of a successful reversal may be lower if itís been over 10 years since your vasectomy.
So in conclusion, while there is some merit to what you are proposing, it does not appear to be quite so easy to reverse the procedure as you suggest. The success rate seems to be only about 30 to 70 percent, if actually impregnating a woman is the measure of success. (And I'm pretty sure you only get it reversed if that is your actual goal. I don't see any reason to have it reversed unless you want to have a kid.)
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Old 7th December 2019, 05:08 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
One question relevant to the topic is simply the pragmatic one: would paper abortions lead to better or worse outcomes for all concerned?

3point14 has made the point that if men who were not interested in or incapable of the responsibilities of fatherhood could get a "paper abortion", this might discourage their partners from carrying the pregnancy to term. That seems like a good outcome, better than struggling single mothers and absent fathers.

On the other hand, many of those women will nevertheless carry those children to term. In that case the situation is worse because now the woman is raising the child without even the child support payments of the father. I think we all agree that at this point it's a worse outcome?

The question seems to be, at the population level which outcome will tend to occur, and are children, in general and on average, better or worse off? I don't know the answer but it seems more relevant to me than much of the focus of the discussion so far.
To my view the only person we need to consider is the child. The adults took the risk so whilst they shouldn't be punished they should be held responsible for the child until the child reaches adulthood or if the child is given up and adopted.

And as can be seen in the UK the legally enforceable child support payments are certainly not ruinous ( I suppose if you have a half dozen kids with different partners it could be very expensive).
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Old 7th December 2019, 07:39 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
To my view the only person we need to consider is the child. The adults took the risk so whilst they shouldn't be punished they should be held responsible for the child until the child reaches adulthood or if the child is given up and adopted.

And as can be seen in the UK the legally enforceable child support payments are certainly not ruinous ( I suppose if you have a half dozen kids with different partners it could be very expensive).
I'm trying to suggest a pragmatic holistic view of the effects on society as a whole, which includes how expecting mothers and fathers would be affected (in the long term).

I don't know that this perspective is the only useful one, but I do think it could offer some insights.
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:01 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
....
I'm over this thread. Idiocracy is correct. Unintentional breeding is something the foolish do, ...
Easy for a gay guy to say. Not so easy for the heterosexual to do.

Do we care about the opinion of a gay guy who's use of condoms is to prevent his own illness, in an abortion thread?

Abortion is a polarizing issue. One guy I know had a young teen daughter. Another guy's wife had a tubal pregnancy. Guess which opposite sides they are on? Does TM's side count? Any more than a Catholic preist's?
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Old 7th December 2019, 01:39 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Easy for a gay guy to say. Not so easy for the heterosexual to do.

Do we care about the opinion of a gay guy who's use of condoms is to prevent his own illness, in an abortion thread?

Abortion is a polarizing issue. One guy I know had a young teen daughter. Another guy's wife had a tubal pregnancy. Guess which opposite sides they are on? Does TM's side count? Any more than a Catholic preist's?
By that logic you should only listen to meth addicts' opinions on whether it's a good idea to use meth.
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Old 7th December 2019, 02:31 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Get a room, you two.

Anyway it sounds like the States could learn a lot from the way the UK does it.

We do seem to have a lot of stuff where relatively poor people end up in extremely discouraging debt and/or prison for no astonishingly good reason.
It's the nature of the US court system for debt collection.

By the letter of the law, you don't go to jail if you honestly can't meet your child support payments. The problem is that one needs a lawyer to effectively argue why failure to pay is not contempt of a court order and a jail able offense, but lawyers aren't cheap and these people are, by definition, have little money.

SO people get found in contempt, either for not properly arguing (with a lawyer) why they can't meet their payments, or by not showing up to court, and they get locked up. Debtor's prison with extra steps.
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Old 7th December 2019, 11:57 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
A vasectomy doesn't address the problem of what to do once a woman has already become pregnant, unless you've got a time machine as well.
Obviously the intention is to get the vasectomy BEFORE copulating.
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Old 8th December 2019, 12:04 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I was not aware that vasectomies are reversible, but if they are, and it isn't prohibitively expensive to do so, that could be a good solution, but more people would need to be made aware of it.



According to Planned Parenthood:







However, the cost of a vasectomy reversal appears to be considerably higher than the cost of a vasectomy, starting at close to $5,000 and averaging over $10,000, and what's more, it doesn't always work (the longer it's been, the less likely it is result in recovered fertility).



https://www.healthline.com/health/va...sal#candidates







So in conclusion, while there is some merit to what you are proposing, it does not appear to be quite so easy to reverse the procedure as you suggest. The success rate seems to be only about 30 to 70 percent, if actually impregnating a woman is the measure of success. (And I'm pretty sure you only get it reversed if that is your actual goal. I don't see any reason to have it reversed unless you want to have a kid.)
Other solutions include IVF. You could store sperm before hand or a doctor could remove the sperm via needle when the parties want to procreate.

And then there is the home frozen sperm (heres one I prepared earlier) and turkey baster method for those on a budget.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...KYB13xFjXUJN-9

Then some day they can use the method that enables two lesbians to use their own genetic material (not sperm) to have their own biological children.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...z0QWGwrj8FdFEc

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Old 8th December 2019, 04:14 AM   #189
Darat
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Out of curiosity what are the numbers of fathers being forced to pay for child support for a child they created but wanted to abort as a fetus?

Shotgun weddings have always happened, certainly in times past a number of women had early births... But we've now had unrestricted access to all contraceptives for 40 plus years so we've had entire generations of folks that could significantly reduce their risk of being unintended parents.
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Old 8th December 2019, 04:19 AM   #190
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We will prosecute people who intentionally do not inform their partner of a STD,. If a man tells the woman he has had a vasectomy so they need no other contraception and he was lying and a child is the result, should he be able to have a "paper abortion" and also be prosecuted for the lack of informed consent?
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Old 8th December 2019, 07:10 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By that logic you should only listen to meth addicts' opinions on whether it's a good idea to use meth.
If I want to learn about the usefulness of meth, I WILL ask one.

If I want to learn about how easy it is prevent pregnancies, it's not the gay guy I'll ask. I might as well ask a a Catholic priest. You both use the same method- Your birth control method is to basically abstain- from sex with fertile women. Good plan, it does work. You use condoms for another good reason. Some other problem that can last the rest of your life. Which is not the subject of this thread.
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Old 8th December 2019, 07:21 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Out of curiosity what are the numbers of fathers being forced to pay for child support for a child they created but wanted to abort as a fetus?

Shotgun weddings have always happened, certainly in times past a number of women had early births... But we've now had unrestricted access to all contraceptives for 40 plus years so we've had entire generations of folks that could significantly reduce their risk of being unintended parents.

I do know a guy who dropped his girlfriend off at the clinic. 9 months later she handed him a bundle of joy and the news that she hadn't gone in. I guess the rate would be (how many fathers I know as well as him)/ one ?

He paid support for some time. She turned druggie, he got sole custody. Raised him just fine. But I don't know who wanted the abortion to begin with, him or her? Or both, they just changed their minds at different times.
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Old 8th December 2019, 07:27 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
If I want to learn about the usefulness of meth, I WILL ask one.

If I want to learn about how easy it is prevent pregnancies, it's not the gay guy I'll ask. I might as well ask a a Catholic priest. You both use the same method- Your birth control method is to basically abstain- from sex with fertile women. Good plan, it does work. You use condoms for another good reason. Some other problem that can last the rest of your life. Which is not the subject of this thread.
The birth control methods I've suggested so far have been the most exhaustive list yet introduced into this discussion:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You really don't get me at all. Yes, having sex is gambling. The possible outcomes are: nothing, an STD, a pregnancy, or both an STD and a pregnancy. There exist methods of reducing changing the odds: condoms, the pill, IUDs, vasectomy, using a different orifice. Those methods possess differing rates of probable success. They are not guaranteed perfect success because nothing in life is guaranteed perfect success. Whether employing any/some/none of these methods to mitigate the risk is up to the two individuals involved. Whether the resulting odds of an unfavorable outcome make the activity worth doing is, again, up to the two individuals. Whether they realize it or not it will always be a gamble. Every action possible is a gamble, the pursuit of one possible outcome gambled against the probability of other outcomes. That has nothing to do with fairness, or deserving, or punishment. It's an inexorable reality of existence. Whining about that won't help.
Despite the repeated mischaracterization of my posts as pushing "abstinence only" that is clearly not the case.

And now you declare everything I said invalid because I'm gay? I think everyone is capable of scrolling up to see what I said and determine for themselves whether my comments are worth consideration or not, regardless of my sexuality.
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:55 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Obviously the intention is to get the vasectomy BEFORE copulating.
Right, but it doesn't solve the problem of people who didn't get a vasectomy. We still end up with unwanted pregnancies and some number of children whose fathers don't want to contribute to their upbringing. That problem can be mitigated somewhat by vasectomies, but it hasn't been solved and so we still have to deal with it.

So, how do we deal with it? Mandatory vasectomies? Mandatory child support payments as we have now? Some other solution of set of solutions?
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:57 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We will prosecute people who intentionally do not inform their partner of a STD,. If a man tells the woman he has had a vasectomy so they need no other contraception and he was lying and a child is the result, should he be able to have a "paper abortion" and also be prosecuted for the lack of informed consent?
I don't think so.

Should a woman be prosecuted if she claims to be on the birth control pill but isn't? (I think that answer here is also no.)
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