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Old 22nd November 2019, 08:27 PM   #81
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Would that include ordering the weapon from the internet and awaiting delivery of it?
That would be acquiring, yes.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 08:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That's not what I'm seeing, and the key difference is that when the students went to the police, they had photographic evidence of the threat - a picture they had taken of the kid's computer screen that, according to the article, showed the alleged written plot. Police then found this on his computer. So unlike your anecdote which sounds more or less like a he-said, she-said kind of thing, the fact that the threatening plot existed and that third parties (his fellow students, the targets of the "plot") saw it, isn't really in dispute in this case.



I don't think it's entirely implausible; but again, the situation isn't analogous to yours. In your story, the sub either lied and completely made up the threat, or else "creatively reinterpreted" something innocuous the contractor had said, for the express purpose of getting the contractor into trouble. In this case, the threat objectively existed - the students didn't make up a story. It was that kid's choice to type up a homicidal revenge fantasy that involved killing his fellow classmates in a school shooting; nobody made him do that, nobody made him do it in-class where the kids around him could see it and even take a picture of it.

As to whether the kids who saw it didn't feel threatened at all when they saw his written them-killing fantasy, and just decided to exploit the situation by turning him in to get him in trouble...I feel safe calling that an extraordinary claim. I do not feel it's very plausible that high school students, living as they do in School-Shooting-Nation when awareness of the issue is at an all-time high, would read a detailed plot by a fellow student whom they know hates them to kill them all in a school shooting and be entirely unperturbed by the situation, interested purely in how to best exploit it for their own ends. Nor do I feel it's particularly likely that you could get high school students voluntarily approaching police and turning in another student, even one they didn't like, unless they were seriously concerned.

To me, the existence of the school-shooting problem in America is sufficient enough reason to assume at least some of the students were afraid when they saw a written plan to kill them in such a manner. And the objective existence of the written "plot" on the kid's computer to me is sufficient enough proof of the reporting students' honesty in this situation. Barring a positive, greater-than-hypothetical reason to suspect their motives, I think it's unreasonable to impugn them.
You may have a point about the way kids view this kind of thing now. It is a very different world, and one where a kid coming to school and opening fire is a realistic scenario, not so when I was growing up.

Still, I am not at all convinced that this particular OP has the chops to have been an actual shooter. As you say, he needs to have consequences, because you simply can't say this kind of thing anymore. But I am not confident that arrest and criminal charges will help him, or anyone else for that matter. There are times to reach out and help, and times to cuff 'em and cage 'em. This boy doesn't warrant criminal treatment, IMO.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:14 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What do other posters here think? My claim: people who haven't read a text are not better judges of that text than people who have read it. Is that an irrational claim? Am I being irrational and ridiculous by holding to it?

I think Thermal makes the better point. But you are both kind of attacking this from two different directions, so in a sense you're both correct. I just think Thermal is correct to analyze the evidence available to us.

Thought Policing seems to be creeping up on us more and more and I think caution is the best road to take. JREF taught me to know as much as I can and to leave belief out of it.

I do not trust authorities enough to um...trust them.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:08 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That would be acquiring, yes.
Does that mean when I click on buy it becomes a threat the police should investigate and perhaps charge?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 01:18 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I think Thermal makes the better point. But you are both kind of attacking this from two different directions, so in a sense you're both correct. I just think Thermal is correct to analyze the evidence available to us.



Thought Policing seems to be creeping up on us more and more and I think caution is the best road to take. JREF taught me to know as much as I can and to leave belief out of it.



I do not trust authorities enough to um...trust them.
But no one is in fact trusting the authorities. All these posts should be read as if they were prefaced with "The following is based on accepting what has been reported by the media.". So if new facts come to light people will change their reasoning and conclusions.

Thermal however is not just doing that, what he is saying is "The following is based on what has been reported by the media and my unevidenced speculations"

People are trying to get him to support his unevidenced speculations and/or trying to explain to Thermal that he is making claims that he has no way to support and therefore reaching conclusions that he cannot support only assert.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 08:07 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But no one is in fact trusting the authorities. All these posts should be read as if they were prefaced with "The following is based on accepting what has been reported by the media.". So if new facts come to light people will change their reasoning and conclusions.

Thermal however is not just doing that, what he is saying is "The following is based on what has been reported by the media and my unevidenced speculations"

People are trying to get him to support his unevidenced speculations and/or trying to explain to Thermal that he is making claims that he has no way to support and therefore reaching conclusions that he cannot support only assert.
No, Thermal is pointing out that the reporting is ambiguous and the narrative is being projected and swallowed wholesale by many. Thermal further opines that we may be culturally overreacting to small things, like childish revenge fantasies, and projecting our fears onto kids which do not appear actively dangerous. It's really not complicated.

I suppose you think that a narrative should never be questioned? That a different perspective on the same evidence be offered?
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:23 PM   #87
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Checkmite would just like to point out that he is highly concerned about young adults whose "childish revenge fantasies" take on the aspect of mass murder, even ones who don't yet appear prepared to act on them, and that he is not at all convinced such individuals are not dangerous and in need of intervention. He points out that if a mass shooting at a school (or wherever) is a childish revenge fantasy, then all mass shooters are in fact merely acting out the same childish revenge fantasy, which makes knowing a person harbors that specific fantasy the best predictor we have to date of a potential mass shooter.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 05:26 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There was a time when a person could make an obvious joke about a bomb while at an airport and it was harmless fun - although in poor taste. But that was back when America was Great.
I’m not sure when the zero-tolerance for bomb jokes actually went into effect, but it predates TSA by at least two decades; my father learned that after making an obvious joke about his travel alarm-clock.

The degree of overreaction may have been less, but it was enough that he missed his flight.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 07:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Checkmite would just like to point out that...


Quote:
... he is highly concerned about young adults whose "childish revenge fantasies" take on the aspect of mass murder, even ones who don't yet appear prepared to act on them, and that he is not at all convinced such individuals are not dangerous and in need of intervention.
Although we agree on this, and you will swear to your last breath that we do not, we differ on the means. You like to soft-pedal it to 'intervention' and 'face consequences'. But what is being discussed is arresting a child and criminally charging them. My argument is against criminal processing, not the foolish strawmen tossed around by you and others.

Note that you begin the above quote by referring to them as 'young adults'. These are ******* children, Baba Louis. But at some level, I think you agree that this is wrong to do to kids, hence your casual reframing. Try saying it out loud: 'Checkmite wants the children arrested for typing revenge fantasy in their laptop.'

Quote:
He points out that if a mass shooting at a school (or wherever) is a childish revenge fantasy, then all mass shooters are in fact merely acting out the same childish revenge fantasy, which makes knowing a person harbors that specific fantasy the best predictor we have to date of a potential mass shooter.
You have an odd assumed equivocation, here. I don't think an actual shooter has revenge fantasies. I think he has cold calculated plans. I think this OP kid, by contrast, has idle very angry thoughts. Look at what was reported: he was going to get a gun and described how he would walk down the halls. Sound familiar? Sounds like COD type gaming to me. By your reasoning, any kid playing GTA is acting out a fantasy, that you then say is a predictor for the real violent behavior. Look at your argument. It is the same as those who blame it on video games, with a new haircut.
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Old 24th November 2019, 06:35 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You may have a point about the way kids view this kind of thing now. It is a very different world, and one where a kid coming to school and opening fire is a realistic scenario, not so when I was growing up.

Still, I am not at all convinced that this particular OP has the chops to have been an actual shooter. As you say, he needs to have consequences, because you simply can't say this kind of thing anymore. But I am not confident that arrest and criminal charges will help him, or anyone else for that matter. There are times to reach out and help, and times to cuff 'em and cage 'em. This boy doesn't warrant criminal treatment, IMO.
I was hesitant to comment on this, but was bothered by "has the chops." I don't get it. Not cool enough or mean enough or what, exactly?
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:19 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
I was hesitant to comment on this, but was bothered by "has the chops." I don't get it. Not cool enough or mean enough or what, exactly?
The resolve, or commitment. What was described in the article sounds like a very angry kid vaguely grumbling to himself. I don't see reported signs of realistic plans to act out, as we see in a later thread.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:28 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Exactly. We are fostering a culture of overreaction to the benign. A planet of people pissing their pants over the slightest whiff of danger. See something, say something. Hey, that guy over there looks a little scary. Better alert the police to my anxieties...just in case. Can't be too safe, ya know.
Yea women complaining about every single rape and death threat they get online, they are just jokes after all.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think it is foolish, because of the zero-tolerance TSA and their imbecilic policies.

I don't recall saying anything about harmless fun, though. If I were to make a joke, which was clearly a joke, then I would not think it reasonable to be arrested.

Murder is a real threat, would you agree? Do you also take any obvious jokes about killing someone as gravely? Don't make me search your posting history.
Yea one little joke and you can end up in prison.

"A 19-year-old gamer who planned a hoax 911 call that resulted in a Kansas man's death was sentenced to 15 months in prison last week. "

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ty/2336255001/
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:31 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea women complaining about every single rape and death threat they get online, they are just jokes after all.
Direct, personal threats are very real, and get taken seriously. Who said anything about jokes? What kind of asinine level of strawman is this?

Oh...hi ponderingturtle.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:33 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea one little joke and you can end up in prison.

"A 19-year-old gamer who planned a hoax 911 call that resulted in a Kansas man's death was sentenced to 15 months in prison last week. "

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ty/2336255001/
This guy called out real people with real guns. See if you can figure out the difference between him and the OP kid who did nothing but write to himself on a laptop.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:33 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Direct, personal threats are very real, and get taken seriously. Who said anything about jokes? What kind of asinine level of strawman is this?
They are just little revenge fantasies and as such should not be taken seriously by anyone.
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:34 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This guy called out real people with real guns. See if you can figure out the difference between him and the OP kid who did nothing but write to himself on a laptop.
And it was hilarious. Look at how they scampered. Why are you taking this all so serious?
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They are just little revenge fantasies and as such should not be taken seriously by anyone.
Acting, or threatening to act on other people is very serious. Talking only to yourself, not so much. While it should get attention and intervention, I don't think it warrants arresting and charging a child. He communicated nothing to others, and showed no sign of intending to carry out his laptop tapping.

But hey, let's run with your strawman logic: gamers shoot each other in video games, I hear. Oh my god! Ponderingturtle says they must be dangerous! Arrest them! Arrest them all! [/ridiculousstrawman]
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Old 25th November 2019, 07:49 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Note that you begin the above quote by referring to them as 'young adults'. These are ******* children, Baba Louis. But at some level, I think you agree that this is wrong to do to kids, hence your casual reframing. Try saying it out loud: 'Checkmite wants the children arrested for typing revenge fantasy in their laptop.'
Calling a 15 year old young adult is, for some ****** up reason, completely bad; however, calling a written plan to slaughter his classmates indiscriminately some 'revenge fantasy' is totally ok because....reasons?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You have an odd assumed equivocation, here.
LoL

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't think an actual shooter has revenge fantasies.
You base that on...what?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think he has cold calculated plans.
I don't think that's true. Alexis had a plan and you dismissed it. So this can't possibly accurately represent your stated beliefs.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Look at what was reported: he was going to get a gun and described how he would walk down the halls. Sound familiar? Sounds like COD type gaming to me.
LoL what? It also sounds like walking down a hallway in a school. Like the one he specifically refers to in his "revenge fantasy" as you call it, for some reason. I can't think of a CoD level that takes place in a school, but maybe you could track it down for me.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
By your reasoning, any kid playing GTA is acting out a fantasy, that you then say is a predictor for the real violent behavior. Look at your argument. It is the same as those who blame it on video games, with a new haircut.
Nonsense.
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Old 25th November 2019, 08:10 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Calling a 15 year old young adult is, for some ****** up reason, completely bad; however, calling a written plan to slaughter his classmates indiscriminately some 'revenge fantasy' is totally ok because....reasons?
If you can say 'written plan to slaughter his classmates indiscriminately' from the vaguely paraphrased reports, I can say 'revenge fantasy' from the same reporting.

Quote:
I don't think that's true. Alexis had a plan and you dismissed it. So this can't possibly accurately represent your stated beliefs.
My argument there, as it is here, is that the evidence presented could be interpreted in a way at odds with the narrative. Wilson did not, as you claim, have a known plan. She had her speaking and her phone quote mined and cherry picked to assemble a narrative. There was no reported plan. But that's another thread.

Quote:
LoL what? It also sounds like walking down a hallway in a school. Like the one he specifically refers to in his "revenge fantasy" as you call it, for some reason. I can't think of a CoD level that takes place in a school, but maybe you could track it down for me.
If you now demand that I demonstrate a COD level that takes place in a school, you are not arguing honestly. I said that describing walking down a hall, as reported, sounds more like first person shooter POV common to gaming, than actual planning.
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Old 25th November 2019, 08:31 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If you can say 'written plan to slaughter his classmates indiscriminately' from the vaguely paraphrased reports, I can say 'revenge fantasy' from the same reporting.
Quote:
The text then went on to detail carrying out such a shooing,(sp)
Sounds like indiscriminately slaughtering students to me. I didn't start this nonsense of complaining about someone using hyperbole, while using hyperbole myself, though. That was you.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My argument there, as it is here, is that the evidence presented could be interpreted in a way at odds with the narrative. Wilson did not, as you claim, have a known plan.
Yes, she ******* did. This is exactly the ******** I'm talking about. She had a plan, location, dates, knew the exits, and made the claims. This is what you do every time though. Repeatedly dismiss everything that doesn't agree with you until you chop it down to "these crazy little rascals".

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
She had her speaking and her phone quote mined and cherry picked to assemble a narrative. There was no reported plan. But that's another thread.
Yeah, go there and post evidence of this because it's ******* nonsense. This whole statement is either a lie or you weren't paying attention.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If you now demand that I demonstrate a COD level that takes place in a school, you are not arguing honestly. I said that describing walking down a hall, as reported, sounds more like first person shooter POV common to gaming, than actual planning.
I mean, you specifically called out CoD by name, but I get it. I'm used to chasing goalposts in these threads when you're in them. They tend to be pretty dynamic.

In any case, of course it would sound like the PoV of a shooter common to gaming. It would be an individual, the one writing the words, where he'd be shooting. So, duh. From the article though:

Quote:
including acquiring a weapon and how he would move through the school during the shooting.
Sounds like he was making plans as to how he would move through the school during the shooting. I would call that "planning", something you've repeatedly downplayed that he'd ever done. After all, it's just revenge fantasy.
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Old 25th November 2019, 09:09 AM   #102
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[quote=plague311;12903880]

Originally Posted by OP reporting
The text then went on to detail carrying out such a shooing,(sp)
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Sounds like indiscriminately slaughtering students to me.
Then we really have nothing to talk about. See ya on the next one.
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Old 26th November 2019, 03:38 PM   #103
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14-year-old Florida boy mass murder school plan

He had a map of his school in his backpack. Cops believed a shooting was next, police say

Originally Posted by Miami Herald
A North Florida teenage boy who was accused of planning a mass shooting had a detailed map of his school in his possession, according to the Putnam County Sheriff’s Office.

The 14-year-old Q.I. Roberts Junior-Senior High School student, whose name the Miami Herald is withholding because of his age, was taken into custody Monday afternoon after deputies were warned of a potential shooting threat through the Fortify Florida app.

Deputies immediately responded to the school where they discovered the map in the teen’s backpack. The map also had times by each classroom, detectives say. “Seeing the plans this student made to cause harm to teachers and fellow classmates made my blood run cold,” Sheriff H.D. “Gator” DeLoach said via Facebook.

Investigators found no weapons on campus or in the teen’s possession. Deputies took the student to a Juvenile Justice facility in Daytona Beach later that evening...
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...237794779.html
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Old 26th November 2019, 05:27 PM   #104
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Not a lot of information about this one. Somebody used the app to report him, but it's not explained in the report how that tipster determined there was a threat. I'm assuming the police are aware. It would certainly be an odd coincidence though, him having that annotated map in his backpack.
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Old 26th November 2019, 07:18 PM   #105
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The Sunshine State seems disproportionately represented in our current crop of suspected mass murderers
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Old 27th November 2019, 06:14 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Sunshine State seems disproportionately represented in our current crop of suspected mass murderers
I understand Florida is disproportionately represented in all news because unlike other states there are no laws about reporters freely publishing anything and everything on recent arrests. Other states are just as crazy, they just don't have their craziness so easily accessible to the news.
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Old 27th November 2019, 07:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
[b]He had a map of his school in his backpack. Cops believed a shooting was next, police say
Nonsense. Plenty of people have maps!
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Old 27th November 2019, 08:58 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not a lot of information about this one.
Purple.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I understand Florida is disproportionately represented in all news because unlike other states there are no laws about reporters freely publishing anything and everything on recent arrests. Other states are just as crazy, they just don't have their craziness so easily accessible to the news.
I understand this explanation is primarily advocated by Floridians.
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Old 27th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Purple.
Yes. You have identified a color.

You want a cookie?
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Old 27th November 2019, 10:52 AM   #111
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Teen boy plan to shoot-up Oklahoma City like never before

Teen charged with planning act of violence wrote 'I will wreak havoc in OKC like never before'

Originally Posted by KOCO News ABC 5
Authorities have released court documents that were just filed against an Oklahoma City teenager who was charged with planning an act of violence.

According to the newly released search warrants, Oklahoma County investigators asked Google and Microsoft for access to anonymous accounts they believed were created by the teenager who made threats in early October. The former Douglas High School student was turned in by his mother after she was reportedly frightened by what she found -- his obsession with weapons and violence.

An electronic journal that was found showed both written and drawn depictions of mass school shootings, the documents state. Prosecutors say the boy celebrated the Columbine school shooting, had created a hit list and wrote, "I will wreak havoc in Oklahoma City like never before, bigger than McVey (Timothy McVeigh)." In the new findings, investigators were able to look inside an XBox account used by the teenager to access the internet and a Google account that was created using a fake name. Prosecutors said they will not add charges after getting a look at the online accounts.
This article contains a link to the previous article about this boy.

https://www.koco.com/article/teen-ch...efore/30002253
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:06 AM   #112
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what is your point here? Make one thread with all the shoot plottings, kinda looks like OCD otherwise
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:07 AM   #113
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Maryland teens planned mass murder - injured one

Girl, 14, faces attempted murder charges after 'she and her 13-year-old boyfriend attacked his family member with a hammer and knife' - after the couple drew up a 'kill list' and planned to commit suicide together

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
A 14-year-old girl is accused of plotting with her boyfriend to kill one of his relatives as part of a 'kill list' before killing themselves, police say.

Alaina Jade Blake, 14, faces charges of attempted first and second-degree murder, first and second-degree assault, an addition to reckless endangerment, the Carroll County Times reports. The 13-year-old's name was withheld because he is charged as a juvenile. The boy was charged but police did not elaborate on what the charges are.

Court documents show Blake and her boyfriend attacked his 56-year-old relative with a hammer and knife. Carroll County Senior Assistant State's Attorney Jennifer Brady says the victim is in stable condition.

Brady says the teens also planned to kill Blake's grandparents and 'possibly others.'

The attorney said the teens had a 'murder-suicide plot' in which Blake would ask her boyfriend to kill her once their list was complete. Blake and her boyfriend launched the attack on his 56-year-old relative on Monday after another family member left the house for work.

The victim was taken to University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center for treatment, and will need reconstructive jaw surgery but is in a stable condition. The victim managed to call the police and they arrived straight away.

Cops were called to the house in Manchester at 5.20 am on Monday and discovered the two teenagers standing on the roof, with blood-stained clothes. They had knives in their hands, according to Carroll County Times.

Cops ordered them to put their weapons down and they were subsequently arrested...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kill-list.html
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:14 AM   #114
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His mom turned him in. Ouch. That's gonna make for some awkward family holidays.

No reported access to weapons though.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:17 AM   #115
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America is a sad place when our teenagers are planning spree killings instead of doing drugs and having sex. Let's bring back old-fashioned values!
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:32 AM   #116
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*raises syringe and condom in toast*
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:35 AM   #117
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#Living While Mass Murdering

Its a thing now
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:36 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
*raises syringe and condom in toast*
Breakfast at your house is weird.
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Old 27th November 2019, 11:39 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Breakfast at your house is weird.
Wait till you see what comes out of the freezer for lunch.
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Old 27th November 2019, 03:22 PM   #120
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But they didnt murder anyone, so how do you know they intended to? Sure they stabbed and hit someone with a hammer, but that ain't murder, and it could have been self defense. They also allegedly had a "kill" list, but that could just have been youthful artistic expression in a story they were playing and/or harmlessly acting out. Accidents happen you know. Why destroy two young lives over meer over baked allegations? Psychic policing in a nanny state much?
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