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Old 9th December 2019, 10:15 PM   #81
arthwollipot
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Yes, the live blog has both figures, in different posts.
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Old 9th December 2019, 10:37 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, the live blog has both figures, in different posts.
I think it is fair to assume the 71% figure is wrong, then.

The Guardian summary page cites the 30% figure:

Quote:
Thirty-one people are in hospital, of whom 27 are suffering from burns to more than 30% of their bodies, including inhalation burns. Not all patients are expected to survive. Three people were discharged from hospital earlier.
And that is the figure that NZ media are reporting from the same source:

Quote:
Five deaths have been confirmed, while eight remain missing, believed dead.

Meanwhile a further 31 people have been treated at seven hospitals throughout the country. Of those, 27 had suffered greater than 30 per cent burns over their body.

Ministry of Health spokesman Pete Watson said it's possible that not all those being treated would survive.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th December 2019, 10:39 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
To be perfectly frank I don't actually care.
No, maybe you don't. But those who do may want accurate information.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th December 2019, 10:40 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it is fair to assume the 71% figure is wrong, then.
I think that's a reasonable assumption.
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Old 9th December 2019, 10:52 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, maybe you don't. But those who do may want accurate information.


I think you know perfectly well what I mean, and exactly what the rest of my post implied
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Old 9th December 2019, 10:55 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think you know perfectly well what I mean, and exactly what the rest of my post implied
No, I don't. Actually, I don't know what your problem is.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th December 2019, 11:05 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, I don't. Actually, I don't know what your problem is.
Great
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 9th December 2019, 11:14 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, I don't. Actually, I don't know what your problem is.
I don't have a problem.


My posts point was internal burns

Edit: Plus internal acid damage
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 9th December 2019 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 9th December 2019, 11:53 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I don't have a problem.


My posts point was internal burns

Edit: Plus internal acid damage
To be fair, other than what we are told by those treating them, we don't really know what condition each of them are in.
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th December 2019, 12:07 AM   #90
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Cool

Just heard something not very good about it and can't be bothered talking trivial details
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 10th December 2019 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 10th December 2019, 12:15 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Cool

Just heard something not very good about it and can't be bothered talking trivial details
Why not share it if you are posting here anyway?
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th December 2019, 12:19 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why not share it if you are posting here anyway?


Purely rumour from another source that works for a DHB, but we maybe appear to have run out of skin to use for grafting.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 10th December 2019, 03:26 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It is believed that the "eruption" was actually a steam explosion caused by pressure caused by super-heated water trapped under the surface rather than a volcanic event.

Not that the difference is any comfort for the families of the 13 killed or believed to have been killed.

A couple from Singapore who were here on their honeymoon, and 7 year old girl are believed to be among the missing and presumed dead.
I can't recall the exact term but it is one of these multi-dimensional volcanoes, i.e., not only molten lava but also XYZ drivers. So, eruption could happen due to a number of causes and with varying outcomes (for example, boiling steam, molten lava, a spew of ash, sulphur gases, et al due to its position (a) mostly submerged below sea level, (b) its place on a tectonic plate the (c) ensuing muddy slime crater, etcetera, etcetera).
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Old 10th December 2019, 03:28 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I was surprised to read that the island is privately owned. Here in the USofA, lawyers would be smacking their lips with glee.
Whoa! First things first.
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Old 10th December 2019, 03:35 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Reports are that some of the critical have up to 90% burns, and that will be inside as well as outside.

The water vapour would have been seriously acidic as well.

Not looking good for them to be fair
AIUI anything over 30% burns is life-threatening and hospital staff have warned some of those injured will not survive. Extensive skin grafting will be needed, lots of gauze bandaging changed several times a day because of the blistering and likely, later plastic surgery to rebuild the burnt skin, especially in exposed areas, such as the face and neck.
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Old 10th December 2019, 03:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It would be mostly unwarranted. No volcanoes, no hurricanes, no tornadoes, and earthquakes don't kill very many people in developed countries.

A Seattle resident has far more reason to be anxious. The Cascadia fault is no joke. And Mt. Ranier.
Maybe that's why people in the developed world live where they do and the poor of the world live in flood zones (Bangladesh) or earthquake zones (Mexico, Chile).

ISTM anyone living in a known 'natural disaster' zone voluntarily (the poor have no choice) are just waiting for a chance to experience hindsight being a fine thing.

Imagine an earthquake in San Fransisco/Los Angeles and the nose-to-bumper mass exodus from the area. It is going to be one massive gridlock, not to mention mass hysteria of the type seen in disaster movies.
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Old 10th December 2019, 04:05 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe that's why people in the developed world live where they do and the poor of the world live in flood zones (Bangladesh) or earthquake zones (Mexico, Chile).
Naples, Catania....
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Old 10th December 2019, 04:07 AM   #98
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A 6th person has died in hospital being the believed total to 14, six in hospital and 8 on the island.
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Old 10th December 2019, 04:23 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe that's why people in the developed world live where they do and the poor of the world live in flood zones (Bangladesh) or earthquake zones (Mexico, Chile).

ISTM anyone living in a known 'natural disaster' zone voluntarily (the poor have no choice) are just waiting for a chance to experience hindsight being a fine thing.

.
Huh? New Zealand, Japan and, as you mention in the same post, California and, as other posters have mentioned, Seattle, (but also Hawaii), and did I mention Japan, and the subject of this thread, New Zealand have plenty of earthquakes and volcanoes between them.

The reason why more people die in the developing world during earthquakes is due to poor infrastructure and poor quality buildings with few safety regulations which are barely enforced and / or skirted due to corruption. It is not because the rich people of the world have deliberately moved to non-seismically active areas.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 10th December 2019, 09:14 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Naples, Catania....
Wasn't Naples once one of the poorest regions in Europe never mind Italy, leading to the rise of mafia gangs..? Children running around barefoot?
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Old 10th December 2019, 01:50 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wasn't Naples once one of the poorest regions in Europe never mind Italy, leading to the rise of mafia gangs..? Children running around barefoot?
Well considering that it dates back to the 6th Century BC, was a major city in Magna Graecia, then the Roman Empire, became a Kingdom after the fall of Rome, and in the 17th Century was the second largest city in Europe, being a major trading hub throughout that entire time, I'd have to say that for most of its existence, no.
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Old 10th December 2019, 02:17 PM   #102
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Horrible news and makes me wonder about our recent visit to Iceland. We were taken to a sulphur field at Seltun, where a path was closed to tourists, because of a recent eruption that had injured visitors. We still happily walked about the place as it look quite safe.
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Old 10th December 2019, 02:22 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well considering that it dates back to the 6th Century BC, was a major city in Magna Graecia, then the Roman Empire, became a Kingdom after the fall of Rome, and in the 17th Century was the second largest city in Europe, being a major trading hub throughout that entire time, I'd have to say that for most of its existence, no.
Pompeii (Volcano disaster 79AD) is five miles from Mount Vesuvius.

Naples is six miles from Mount Vesuvius.

ETA: According to (new-ish) findings, Vesuvius erupted over Naples a long time prior to Pompeii, leaving it a desert waste for eons.

Quote:
Long before Mount Vesuvius buried Pompeii in rock and ash, the volcano erupted in an even more powerful explosion that affected the area occupied by present-day Naples. It left the region a desert wasteland for centuries afterwards, a new study reports.

The so-called Avellino eruption occurred about 3,780 years ago during the Bronze Age and was at least twice as powerful as the one that smothered Pompeii and the nearby town of Herculaneum in 79 AD.

If a similar-sized eruption occurred today, it would destroy the entire Italian port-city of Naples and displace millions of people, experts say.
https://www.livescience.com/7082-ves...-suggests.html
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Old 10th December 2019, 03:40 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well that is just not being friendly



It is unbelievable the power of these things.

Have heaps of relatives and friends from back in my home city who were in the Chch earthquake and the 10s of thousands of after shocks (might be 100s). Like shell shock talking to them some times then.

My house I grew up in wiped out.

Remember watching the 2004 boxing day Tsunami as well. Horrible stuff.

All completely out of peoples hands.
Except for the girl who remembered a lesson saying when the sea disappears get outtahere. She saved many people.
There was 100% certainty that some day lives would be lost on White Island if there are always people on it during the day. This is not hind sight, it is statistics.
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Old 10th December 2019, 04:15 PM   #105
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Police have clarified that they have launched an investigation into whether any person or persons can be held responsible for a breach in safety, but that it is not a criminal investigation.
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Old 10th December 2019, 05:01 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yellowstone has these devastating steam explosions from time to time, often catching people unaware and causing fatalities.


Never heard of someone getting killed by an unexpected explosion in Yellowstone and there have been two books written about deaths in Yellowstone that do not mention a single case of someone being killed by an unexpected steam explosion. Seems like all deaths have been attributed to wild animals or people falling into or getting too close or purposely (read "stupidly") entering boiling hot pools or steam vents.

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Old 10th December 2019, 06:15 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Pompeii (Volcano disaster 79AD) is five miles from Mount Vesuvius.

Naples is six miles from Mount Vesuvius.

ETA: According to (new-ish) findings, Vesuvius erupted over Naples a long time prior to Pompeii, leaving it a desert waste for eons.

https://www.livescience.com/7082-ves...-suggests.html
I'm not sure your point here since that eruption was 1100 years before the founding of Naples, other than helping to make our point that humans live in some rather dumb and dangerous places.
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Old 10th December 2019, 06:42 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Except for the girl who remembered a lesson saying when the sea disappears get outtahere. She saved many people.
There was 100% certainty that some day lives would be lost on White Island if there are always people on it during the day. This is not hind sight, it is statistics.
I know and that was the most upsetting to me because there are programs and records of the 1960 devastating tsunami in Hawaii showing what the tide going way out means.

My fourth-grade teacher lost a brother in that tsunami. He told us the tide went way out and the kids got all excited and went out to see it. Then the tsunami hit.

I live in California and I know what it means when the tide goes way out. I've known it since I was a kid and I never lived in a tsunami area. And here were all these people that grew up on islands in an earthquake active zone.

How did the local residents not all know to run when the tide went out like that? I don't get it.

In Japan they should have all headed up hill when the earthquake struck. But there I can see people stupidly being complacent, probably had lots of quakes with no tsunami and probably believed the coastal barrier would be enough.

But the Indonesian tsunami? How did they not know what that rapidly falling tide meant? Even when the tidal bore was on the way and could be seen in the distance, people still didn't react.


Sorry, that low tide warning irks me every time I think about it.
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Old 10th December 2019, 06:44 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Never heard of someone getting killed by an unexpected explosion in Yellowstone and there have been two books written about deaths in Yellowstone that do not mention a single case of someone being killed by an unexpected steam explosion. Seems like all deaths have been attributed to wild animals or people falling into or getting too close or purposely (read "stupidly") entering boiling hot pools or steam vents.

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Yeah, that was addressed already.
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Old 10th December 2019, 06:45 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm not sure your point here since that eruption was 1100 years before the founding of Naples, other than helping to make our point that humans live in some rather dumb and dangerous places.
Naples is built in a super-volcano caldera. Where Vesuvius is, is a moot point.

Discover: The Campi Flegrei caldera stirred in 2017.
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Old 10th December 2019, 06:50 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But the Indonesian tsunami? How did they not know what that rapidly falling tide meant? Even when the tidal bore was on the way and could be seen in the distance, people still didn't react.
Are you talking about all the clueless tourists drinking their fancy little drinks?
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Old 10th December 2019, 06:53 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Are you talking about all the clueless tourists drinking their fancy little drinks?
No! I'm talking about the locals that didn't run and scream for others to run. There was a single island that the population had folklore about the tide. Most of them made it safely to higher ground. Few other people reacted to the low tide.

From Wiki:
Quote:
Also, in the minutes preceding a tsunami strike, the sea often recedes temporarily from the coast, something which was observed on the eastern side of the rupture zone of the earthquake such as around the coastlines of Aceh province, Phuket island, and Khao Lak area in Thailand, Penang island of Malaysia, and the Andaman and Nicobar islands. Around the Indian Ocean, this rare sight reportedly induced people, especially children, to visit the coast to investigate and collect stranded fish on as much as 2.5 km (1.6 mi) of exposed beach, with fatal results.[53] However, not all tsunamis cause this "disappearing sea" effect. In some cases, there are no warning signs at all: the sea will suddenly swell without retreating, surprising many people and giving them little time to flee.

One of the few coastal areas to evacuate ahead of the tsunami was on the Indonesian island of Simeulue, close to the epicentre. Island folklore recounted an earthquake and tsunami in 1907, and the islanders fled to inland hills after the initial shaking and before the tsunami struck. These tales and oral folklore from previous generations may have helped the survival of the inhabitants.[54] On Maikhao Beach in north Phuket City, Thailand, a 10-year-old British tourist named Tilly Smith had studied tsunamis in geography at school and recognised the warning signs of the receding ocean and frothing bubbles. She and her parents warned others on the beach, which was evacuated safely.[55] John Chroston, a biology teacher from Scotland, also recognised the signs at Kamala Bay north of Phuket, taking a busload of vacationers and locals to safety on higher ground.
It's my understanding it was more than just the earthquake that warned the people on Simeulue.
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:04 PM   #113
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Meanwhile, back on topic

Apparently they have confirmed for the first time ever they have had to order skin for grafts

120 square meters ordered from the US

2 of the patients are 90% burns, the rest at least 30%
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:09 PM   #114
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New reports say that ongoing volcano activity is preventing the attempts at body recovery.
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:17 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
New reports say that ongoing volcano activity is preventing the attempts at body recovery.
They sent drones over and there are massive levels of the ugly gases going on.

Also about 4am this morning there was ugly rumbling shifting started going on, on onsite seismographs, so they lifted it from level 2 to 3.
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Old 10th December 2019, 10:19 PM   #116
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End of the day the bodies aren't going any where, so personally think they should just wait till it calms down a bit before going in.
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Old 11th December 2019, 02:57 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Meanwhile, back on topic

Apparently they have confirmed for the first time ever they have had to order skin for grafts

120 1.2m square meters ordered from the US

2 of the patients are 90% burns, the rest at least 30%
FIFY
Quote:
Dr Peter Watson, chief medical officer at New Zealand's National Burns Unit said an estimated 1.2 million sq cm of replacement skin will be needed for the patients. An order has been placed from the US.
bbc

Notwithstanding the terrible pain, the biggest danger for burns victims is infection. The skin forms a barrier to the world that keeps out germs and fungi. without that there, and especially if the burns cover more than 30% of the body, your immune system is going to have a massive uphill struggle fighting off infections, even in the most sterile* of suites.

And some cannot even speak because of internal burns. Imagine the stress of trying to breathe in and out without great pain.

Quote:
Mr Nash explained the injuries to the survivors were so severe that some of them were unable to identify themselves.

"There are a number of people in hospital who cannot communicate, they have significant burns not only to skin but internal organs," he told Radio New Zealand.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50738613

*Sterile technically means zero bacteria but there will always be some even in the most protected hospital units.
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Old 11th December 2019, 03:07 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
FIFY
bbc

Notwithstanding the terrible pain, the biggest danger for burns victims is infection. The skin forms a barrier to the world that keeps out germs and fungi. without that there, and especially if the burns cover more than 30% of the body, your immune system is going to have a massive uphill struggle fighting off infections, even in the most sterile* of suites.

And some cannot even speak because of internal burns. Imagine the stress of trying to breathe in and out without great pain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50738613

*Sterile technically means zero bacteria but there will always be some even in the most protected hospital units.
1.2 million square centimetres = 120 square metres.
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Old 11th December 2019, 03:13 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm not sure your point here since that eruption was 1100 years before the founding of Naples, other than helping to make our point that humans live in some rather dumb and dangerous places.
The context was people in the developed world living in places of known natural disaster risk. These are mostly inhabited by populations too poor to live in more economically developed places (Bangladesh, Mexico, Chile, etc) and in Europe, traditionally Naples (volcano zone) has been perceived as a relatively poverty-stricken area giving rise to crime and the mafia.

The question was why someone with the means to live somewhere safe would choose to live in a 'ring of fire' zone, presuming they can afford to move out?
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Old 11th December 2019, 03:14 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Reeco View Post
1.2 million square centimetres = 120 square metres.
Thanks, I stand corrected. I didn't see the 'cm' bit.
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