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Old Today, 03:09 AM   #1281
Craig B
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You can either do it or suffer from the backlash. Check the reason why we have this topic open.



So?

It was also Hitlers' view that the government should sometimes act to jump-start the economy to get it out of recession and restart the growth, should we abandon the practice of an occasional stimulus because Hitler believed in it?

McHrozni
Hitler's general economic policies were grotesque. But even if they occasionally entailed something with which future economists have concurred, we are not talking about economics here, but ethnic categorisation of persons entering the country. Are we to abandon Hitler's beliefs in this field?

I think we must. At all events, I don't think we should say: why don't we do what Hitler did, as far as immigration is concerned? Even if that seems to keep xenophobes happy, it is a dangerous road to travel.

Last edited by Craig B; Today at 03:30 AM.
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Old Today, 03:12 AM   #1282
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's either a cunning, suicidal ploy to destroy Brexit once for all...

That would be a stunning and selfless piece of statesmanship.

Perhaps the meetings with the auto industry were of the 'it's not gonna happen but don't tell anyone' kind.

Yeah, I don't think so either.
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Old Today, 03:15 AM   #1283
The Don
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I don't know ... it could be catastrophic levels of incompetence at work ... or it could be ever more desperate attempts to scuttle the process. She is literately trying to bully the EU into kneeling before the mighty UK. This is either because she feels confident she can win, or else she is putting the UK in a situation where victory is impossible, but backtracking to remain in EU may remain as a viable option.

The amount of political capital she already expended on making sure hard Brexit goes through means this would end her career, but she would take down the main Brexit leaders with her, and disenchant and discredit the movement.

It's either a cunning, suicidal ploy to destroy Brexit once for all, or a hopeless, incompetent and just as suicidal attempt at quitting the EU. I'm really not sure.

McHrozni
IMO it's most certainly Option B, the Muppets around her have convinced her that she's in a very strong negotiating position and so she's acting accordingly
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Old Today, 03:22 AM   #1284
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Hitler's general economic policies were grotesque. But even if they occasionally entailed something with which future economists have concurred, we ar not talking about economics here, but ethnic categorisation of persons entering the country. Are we to abandon Hitler's beliefs in this field?

I think we must. At all events, I don't think we should say: why don't we do what Hitler did, as far as immigration is concerned? Even if that seems to keep xenophobes happy, it is a dangerous road to travel.
This is a gross mischaracterization of what I said.

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Old Today, 03:24 AM   #1285
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That would be a stunning and selfless piece of statesmanship.

Perhaps the meetings with the auto industry were of the 'it's not gonna happen but don't tell anyone' kind.

Yeah, I don't think so either.
It could be in part a result of slicing. The plan could've been for the courts to stop it more forcefully than they did, or if not, for the parliament (led by Labour) to mount an effective resistance. This would explain why they didn't publish the strategy (more accurately: letter to Santa) until after the vote. When this didn't materialize they were already too deep in not to more forward, so now they're trying their very best to provoke an aggressive response from Bremainers.

Not likely, I agree.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it's most certainly Option B, the Muppets around her have convinced her that she's in a very strong negotiating position and so she's acting accordingly
Again, I think both of you are right. Alas, I find it hard to believe she could be this silly, this reckless and this stupid and yet still capable of bipedal locomotion without a tail.

Still, this option is less outrageous than the option A.

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Old Today, 04:14 AM   #1286
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What I don't understand is why Germany doesn't seek other sources of immigrants it needs. I'm sure you can find 1-2 million Ukrainians who would be happy to live and work in Germany. Ukrainians should be more acceptable to German xenophobes than Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and whatnot.

If nothing else the issue of terrorism is taken away.

McHrozni
What an odd thing to say when the British government issues travel advice telling its citizens that there is a general threat of terrorism in the Ukraine.

Let's not turn the Brexit thread into yet another Muslims are bad people who want to kill us thread. There's enough of them already.

Merkel obviously believes that innocent Syrian civilians don't deserve to choose between the daily threat of death or an indefinite period locked up in an internment camp.

That's a good thing. If you disagree with it then you obviously have some issues that you need to resolve.
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Old Today, 04:21 AM   #1287
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
What an odd thing to say when the British government issues travel advice telling its citizens that there is a general threat of terrorism in the Ukraine.
Yes, terrorism conducted by Russian agents and mercenaries, aimed at destabilizing Ukraine is a threat in Ukraine. It's not something Ukrainians do because of their Ukrainian teachings or something.

Quote:
Merkel obviously believes that innocent Syrian civilians don't deserve to choose between the daily threat of death or an indefinite period locked up in an internment camp.
I agree with the sentiment but there were better ways to resolve their situation. I described one above.

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Old Today, 05:34 AM   #1288
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What I don't understand is why Germany doesn't seek other sources of immigrants it needs. I'm sure you can find 1-2 million Ukrainians who would be happy to live and work in Germany. Ukrainians should be more acceptable to German xenophobes than Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and whatnot.

If nothing else the issue of terrorism is taken away.

McHrozni
Because there is not 2 million Ukrainians which want to migrate.
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Old Today, 05:43 AM   #1289
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Because there is not 2 million Ukrainians which want to migrate.
I sincerely doubt you wouldn't be able to find that many if you tried. The war in Donbass alone produced almost 1 million refugees and 1.4 million IDPs.

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Old Today, 05:55 AM   #1290
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What I don't understand is why Germany doesn't seek other sources of immigrants it needs. I'm sure you can find 1-2 million Ukrainians who would be happy to live and work in Germany. Ukrainians should be more acceptable to German xenophobes than Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and whatnot.

If nothing else the issue of terrorism is taken away.

McHrozni
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Because there is not 2 million Ukrainians which want to migrate.
They were. They just stayed in slavic part of Central Europe.
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Old Today, 06:11 AM   #1291
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
They were. They just stayed in slavic part of Central Europe.
Is that choice not to the liking of "German xenophobes"? What do you recommend that they should do to change these refugees' destination? May I take it for granted that you will accept the imposition of frankly racist criteria as part of the strategy, if required?
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Old Today, 06:55 AM   #1292
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Is that choice not to the liking of "German xenophobes"? What do you recommend that they should do to change these refugees' destination? May I take it for granted that you will accept the imposition of frankly racist criteria as part of the strategy, if required?
None of that. It was just commentary that most of Ukrainians stopped here and thus are "unavailable" to other countries.
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Old Today, 06:58 AM   #1293
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BBC article summarising Brexit impact:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39257947

Quote:
Automotive industry: 'Protect priority sector'

Worth 19bn to the UK economy; employs 800,000 workers

The car industry, though, says it has already been identified as a "priority sector" by the government ahead of the talks.
That's fine but.....


Quote:
Financial services: 'No cliff edge'
Worth 120bn to the UK economy; 1.1 million workers
...compared to financial services it's tiny. Indeed the drop in financial services could be larger than the entire automotive industry.

Quote:
Estimates vary, but one widely quoted report suggested that up to 75,000 financial jobs could be lost from the UK leaving the single market.
That's a large number of largely well paying jobs leaving
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Old Today, 07:01 AM   #1294
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Also, if we have a Hard Brexit, Dover will be thrown into turmoil and every day will be "operation stack"

Quote:
Operation Stack. Every day. For perpetuity.

That was the stark warning sent by the head of the Port of Dover to UK and European politicians on the eve of Article 50.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39424166

Now, what are the positive aspects of Brexit ?
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Old Today, 07:05 AM   #1295
3point14
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Also, if we have a Hard Brexit, Dover will be thrown into turmoil and every day will be "operation stack"



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39424166

Now, what are the positive aspects of Brexit ?


There are none but to mention this is, apparently, downright unpatriotic.

Nick Clegg, remember him, speaks:

The most important thing of all is people like you make your voice heard. What the hysterical aggression from the Brexiteers means is they want to silence you.

"That’s why they attack everyone. The Bank of England - how dare you speak about the British economy? How dare judges make a judgement? How dare Remainers still believe they want to be part of the EU?



http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...it-bullies-and


There's video somewhere and he looks knackered and concerned and sincere and I don't think he's that good an actor.
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Old Today, 07:44 AM   #1296
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Also, if we have a Hard Brexit, Dover will be thrown into turmoil and every day will be "operation stack"



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39424166

Now, what are the positive aspects of Brexit ?
Typical project fear nonsense. If you read that article you will see it says ".... (17% of all traded goods in the UK arrive or leave through Dover) ...". A hard Brexit will solve that problem by reducing the incoming and outgoing freight, 17% of "bugger all" is a very low figure!
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Old Today, 07:49 AM   #1297
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
None of that. It was just commentary that most of Ukrainians stopped here and thus are "unavailable" to other countries.
That's good, that they have found places to stop in; but other countries might still receive "Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and whatnot" if they wish, as Mc Hrozni points out.
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Old Today, 10:51 AM   #1298
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, terrorism conducted by Russian agents and mercenaries, aimed at destabilizing Ukraine is a threat in Ukraine. It's not something Ukrainians do because of their Ukrainian teachings or something.



I agree with the sentiment but there were better ways to resolve their situation. I described one above.

McHrozni
Are you implying terrorrism is something Syrians do because of their Syrian teachings or something?

Your better way didn't sound better to me. It sounded in fact worse.
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Old Today, 11:21 AM   #1299
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Interesting data on the different voting patterns in this BBC report.
Quote:
A statistical analysis of the data obtained for over a thousand individual local government wards confirms how the strength of the local Leave vote was strongly associated with lower educational qualifications.
And today in the Senate Intelligence committee it was revealed that Putin had his fake news army sending out stories to favor the exit. Doesn't surprise me to see evidence the people susceptible to those fake stories might have been the less educated.

Not that more educated immunizes against false beliefs, but it does seem that dog whistles aimed at stirring up fear of immigrants might be more readily heard among the low income/low education group.

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Old Today, 11:25 AM   #1300
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It includes this gem
Wow. It's like religious memes where immunity against the truth is built in.
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Old Today, 11:26 AM   #1301
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Can we just say it? The stupid and gullible came out in force to sweep the day for the 'Can we prey on the stupid and gullible' Johnson/Farrage axis.
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Old Today, 01:06 PM   #1302
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The Russians seem like they are pretty good at winning elections. I hope they support Scottish Independence. Any idea if Nicola and Alex have been in touch with them yet?
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Old Today, 01:50 PM   #1303
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The Russians seem like they are pretty good at winning elections. I hope they support Scottish Independence. Any idea if Nicola and Alex have been in touch with them yet?
I don't think independence for small nations is something Putin would get behind.
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Old Today, 01:53 PM   #1304
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I don't think independence for small nations is something Putin would get behind.
Depends if he is happy to break up the UK or not. He might get a good deal on some Tridents too if May keeps up her nonsense.
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Old Today, 02:04 PM   #1305
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Depends if he is happy to break up the UK or not. He might get a good deal on some Tridents too if May keeps up her nonsense.
Ooh, I forgot about Trident. Yeah, that would create a problem for NATO so maybe Putin would get behind it.
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Old Today, 02:37 PM   #1306
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At least some are doing some good work:
https://goodlawproject.org/brexit/
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