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Old 23rd October 2008, 10:01 PM   #1
1337m4n
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Explosions actually aren't an uncommon occurrence in a burning building

When Truthers present eyewitnesses who claim to have "heard explosions", they are usually shot down by saying that not everything that sounds like an explosions necessarily is one.

That is true. But let's also look at the other possibility: what the witnesses heard indeed WERE explosions. Just not bombs.

A training memo from LAcountyfire.com describes the signs, causes, and dangers of explosions in burning buildings. In fact is is quite common for explosions to occur in burning buildings. They are not bombs, but they are explosions, and there's nothing any more unusual about them than about the fire itself.

Link: http://www.lacountyfire.com/article-print-70.html

Interesting tidbit:

Quote:
Before a fire investigator declares the cause of an explosion at a structure fire to be one of the above, a post-fire analysis must rule out all other possibilities. For example, if the gas piping is intact, if no ruptured propane cylinders are found and there are no traces of an accelerant flammable liquid residue or bomb fragments, then the explosion may be recorded as a smoke explosion (backdraft).
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Old 23rd October 2008, 10:16 PM   #2
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Right-o. A large office complex like WTC had to have some various pressurized or enclosed air/liquid conduits of some kind that would have gone blammo.

Won't a CRT explode violently when the temperature's high enough? Think of all the TV/computer screens in the buildings ALONE.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 10:16 PM   #3
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yea but dont take out of context the 118 firefighter who heard the explosions like going around the building pop pop pop below the fire region,or even in the basement
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Old 23rd October 2008, 10:18 PM   #4
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Got a link I can look at?
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Old 23rd October 2008, 10:24 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by GodisEnergy View Post
yea but dont take out of context the 118 firefighter who heard the explosions like going around the building pop pop pop below the fire region,or even in the basement

A lot of them were describing bodies hitting the ground...

Here's Gravy's breakdown: http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/whattheyheard

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Old 23rd October 2008, 10:46 PM   #6
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I'd be interested to know if any of the people who insist that the first responders are keeping quiet have ever been in a mass casualty kind of situation. When everything goes to hell in a handbasket so fast, and nobody knows what's going on, you pick the first and worst thing it could be. You do the best with the info you have at the time.

I don't see Alex Jones going into that NYPD bar anytime soon.

Thanks for the link.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 11:49 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by GodisEnergy View Post
yea but dont take out of context the 118 firefighter who heard the explosions like going around the building pop pop pop below the fire region,or even in the basement
Apparently you should follow your own advice.
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Old 24th October 2008, 01:54 AM   #8
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Here's a little experiment. Drop a safe out a window from at least two stories and make sure it hits concrete. Do it in a populated area and see how many "reports of explosions" are received to your local 911 operator.
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Old 24th October 2008, 03:59 AM   #9
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an aeresol can, when exposed to heat, EXPLODES.
a transformer, when short circuited or damaged, can EXPLODE.
an oxygen cannister, when damaged, can EXPLODE.

SO yes, in a building like WTC1/2, where there would certainly be many aeresol cans, and many electrical transformers, and perhaps even some oxygen cannisters (if from nothing more, then from with in the impacting aircraft), it does not surprise me IN THE LEAST, that people heard EXPLOSIONS.

TAM
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Old 24th October 2008, 04:05 AM   #10
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Of course. We know that. Why start a thread to state the obvious?

...


Oh yeah. I forgot.
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Old 24th October 2008, 04:07 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by GodisEnergy View Post
yea but dont take out of context the 118 firefighter who heard the explosions like going around the building pop pop pop below the fire region,or even in the basement
I wonder how many of those 118 firefighters (source?) would say that they believe there were actual bombs in the building.
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Old 24th October 2008, 07:06 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mince View Post
I wonder how many of those 118 firefighters (source?) would say that they believe there were actual bombs in the building.

Wouldnt want to ask them though....truthers wouldnt like their answers.
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Old 25th October 2008, 03:09 PM   #13
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not bodies, not elevators falling

Sue Kean (sp?), is a high credibility witness to explosions; a police officer for eight years before 9/11, and in the US Army for 13 years before that. She said, “Sounded like bombs going off, that’s when the explosions happened. I could hear it coming and I knew something was going to happen. I braced myself. It started to get dark and then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion. We were on the mezzanine, which is all encased in glass. The windows blew in, everything went black, we all got thrown. In the military they blow things up around you so you’re not afraid of it, you don’t panic. If something blows up, we cover, we breathe into our shirts, we wait for it to pass over, and then we look up before we get up. All that stuff stayed with me. There was this incredible rush of air, and it literally sucked the breath out of my lungs. Everything went out of me with this massive wind, stuff was just flying pass. I had burn marks, not like you’d have from a fire, but my face was all red and my chest was red and for three or four days, there was stuff coming out of my body like you wouldn’t believe. It was like shrapnel.”

George Koslowski, firefighter, “We made it around the corner, that’s when the **** hit the fan, right then and there. We heard that loud, ba-boom. I just, it was like an earthquake, or whatever, a giant, giant explosion. Then this big gust came, and I just went flying maybe 30, 40 feet tumbling. I got up, got on my hands and knees because all of this white **** was all over me. I just kept crawling, and my ears were like deaf, you know when you hear like a giant firecracker or something.”

Explosions that accompany large fires:
Smoke explosions
Boiling liquid, expanding vapors explosions
Transformer explosions

Several firefighter accounts talk of large explosions directly before the collapse of the buildings. Some accounts give three large explosions, and then the buildings collapse.
Though causality is hard to prove, the frequency of these types of accounts in the Oral Histories makes it hard to deny a connection. It is true that smoke explosions, or boiling liquid explosions, or even transformer explosions may have been among the chaos in the building due to fires in those sections of the building on fire, but they would neither be large enough to bring down the entire building, nor likely to initiate collapse. NIST makes no connection between these types of explosions and collapse initiation. And they would not be happening in those parts of the building where there was no fire, such as on the mezzanine level.

Falling bodies, falling elevators, even smoke, or boiling liquid explosions do not account for what took place.

And as NIST documented in the first 5 to 8 minutes before evacuation started in earnest, fireballs, extreme heat, smoke and collapsed walls were reported in sub level 6. The ONLY elevator shaft, or shaft of any kind that reached from the strike zone to this level was the shaft for Car 50. Car 50 was stuck around sub level 2 or 3, with two occupants injured but alive. Neither they nor their rescuers reported fireballs or extreme heat, or anything that could account for what took place in the levels below them in this time frame. A machine shop and parking facility was destroyed, and fireballs, collapsed walls were reported.

Arturo Griffith, and Marlene Cruz were rescued from the car, in the vicinity of the car for another 40 minutes before being evacuated, and neither they nor their rescuers reported such destruction coming through the only shaft from above. The destruction had to originate from somewhere below.
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Old 25th October 2008, 04:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by sdemetri View Post
Sue Kean (sp?), is a high credibility witness to explosions; a police officer for eight years before 9/11, and in the US Army for 13 years before that. She said, “Sounded like bombs going off, that’s when the explosions happened. I could hear it coming and I knew something was going to happen. I braced myself. It started to get dark and then all of a sudden there was this massive explosion. We were on the mezzanine, which is all encased in glass. The windows blew in, everything went black, we all got thrown. In the military they blow things up around you so you’re not afraid of it, you don’t panic. If something blows up, we cover, we breathe into our shirts, we wait for it to pass over, and then we look up before we get up. All that stuff stayed with me. There was this incredible rush of air, and it literally sucked the breath out of my lungs. Everything went out of me with this massive wind, stuff was just flying pass. I had burn marks, not like you’d have from a fire, but my face was all red and my chest was red and for three or four days, there was stuff coming out of my body like you wouldn’t believe. It was like shrapnel.”

George Koslowski, firefighter, “We made it around the corner, that’s when the **** hit the fan, right then and there. We heard that loud, ba-boom. I just, it was like an earthquake, or whatever, a giant, giant explosion. Then this big gust came, and I just went flying maybe 30, 40 feet tumbling. I got up, got on my hands and knees because all of this white **** was all over me. I just kept crawling, and my ears were like deaf, you know when you hear like a giant firecracker or something.”

Explosions that accompany large fires:
Smoke explosions
Boiling liquid, expanding vapors explosions
Transformer explosions

Several firefighter accounts talk of large explosions directly before the collapse of the buildings. Some accounts give three large explosions, and then the buildings collapse.
Though causality is hard to prove, the frequency of these types of accounts in the Oral Histories makes it hard to deny a connection. It is true that smoke explosions, or boiling liquid explosions, or even transformer explosions may have been among the chaos in the building due to fires in those sections of the building on fire, but they would neither be large enough to bring down the entire building, nor likely to initiate collapse. NIST makes no connection between these types of explosions and collapse initiation. And they would not be happening in those parts of the building where there was no fire, such as on the mezzanine level.

Falling bodies, falling elevators, even smoke, or boiling liquid explosions do not account for what took place.

And as NIST documented in the first 5 to 8 minutes before evacuation started in earnest, fireballs, extreme heat, smoke and collapsed walls were reported in sub level 6. The ONLY elevator shaft, or shaft of any kind that reached from the strike zone to this level was the shaft for Car 50. Car 50 was stuck around sub level 2 or 3, with two occupants injured but alive. Neither they nor their rescuers reported fireballs or extreme heat, or anything that could account for what took place in the levels below them in this time frame. A machine shop and parking facility was destroyed, and fireballs, collapsed walls were reported.

Arturo Griffith, and Marlene Cruz were rescued from the car, in the vicinity of the car for another 40 minutes before being evacuated, and neither they nor their rescuers reported such destruction coming through the only shaft from above. The destruction had to originate from somewhere below.
I don't think anyone's claiming that transformer explosions... or explosions at all brought down the towers. Claiming as much is about as good as strawman argument.

Do we really need to get into this whole business of the long debunked basement specter bombs all over again?
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:34 PM   #15
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Hardly debunked.

Many firefighters reported massive explosions just prior to the buildings collapsing.

NIST doesn't substantiate the damage it reports on in the sub levels that occurred, according to the interviews NIST conducted, in the first 5 to 8 minutes after the plane struck WTC 1.

Hardly debunked. Gaping holes in the official conspiracy theory.
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Old 26th October 2008, 05:43 PM   #16
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have any of the firefighters stated definitively that the explosions they heard were unusual for a burning building?
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Old 27th October 2008, 10:47 AM   #17
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Yes, read my post. Did any of them talk about secondary devices in the buildings? Again, yes. Did any of them talk about synchronized, regular (as in timed, synchronized flashes and bursts), deliberate appearing bursts? Yes. Did any of them talk about it looking just like controlled demolition? Yes. Did any of them speak about massive explosions occurring and then the buildings collapsing? Yes.

Hardly debunked.
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Old 27th October 2008, 02:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by sdemetri View Post
Yes, read my post. Did any of them talk about secondary devices in the buildings? Again, yes. Did any of them talk about synchronized, regular (as in timed, synchronized flashes and bursts), deliberate appearing bursts? Yes. Did any of them talk about it looking just like controlled demolition? Yes. Did any of them speak about massive explosions occurring and then the buildings collapsing? Yes.

Hardly debunked.
I do hope you filtered out all those similes, metaphors, & analogies... apparently those don't exist in the world of the "truth". Oh and I forgot that confusion in the world of the "truth" is also an impossibility with the overflow of the information & communication networks because of an extremely chaotic event.

Body language describing th pancaking of floors somehow represents a demo sequence... and not one firefighter who reported these explosions felt suspicious enough to come forward in the last 7 years from within the NYFD

I don't think you have your priorities set....

These have been explained numerous times but the same claims you just brought up keep getting repeated with the same philosophy, regardless of whether the above is introduced....
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Old 27th October 2008, 02:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel View Post
Here's a little experiment. Drop a safe out a window from at least two stories and make sure it hits concrete. Do it in a populated area and see how many "reports of explosions" are received to your local 911 operator.
I've had a one-ton block of steel fall six inches onto a machine table, and I was astounded at how loud it was.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
an aeresol can, when exposed to heat, EXPLODES.
a transformer, when short circuited or damaged, can EXPLODE.
an oxygen cannister, when damaged, can EXPLODE.

SO yes, in a building like WTC1/2, where there would certainly be many aeresol cans, and many electrical transformers, and perhaps even some oxygen cannisters (if from nothing more, then from with in the impacting aircraft), it does not surprise me IN THE LEAST, that people heard EXPLOSIONS.

TAM
Fire extinguishers (basically pressurized cylinders) can explode violently in fires.
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Old 28th June 2011, 04:16 AM   #20
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*THREAD NECRO JUTSU*
It came again. Better to show that it's been discussed at length than to completely begin a new thread on it. 99% of what witnesses described at the WTC are things attributable to secondary causes of the fires. In fact many of the actual causes of explosions can be found discussed in some of the NFPA documentation, firefighters manuals, and books. 99% of OTHER building fires will have reports of explosions without any explosives or detonators being involved at all, and 100% of all controlled demolitions will have been carried out with the building not already being on fire during the process.

Here's my proposal; "9/11 skeptics" - the conspiracy theorists - can demonstrate what was unusual about reports of explosions during the WTC events. To give some perspective, this thread was posted 2 and a half years ago and not a single statement has been made on the part of self-referred "9/11 skeptics" to explain how they concluded that the only reason for the reports of explosions is the presence of incendiaries and explosive charges.

I also propose that this thread or post gets linked any time someone repeats the 118 reports of explosions = explosives nonsense.

Other fires with reports of explosions:
Explosions as Firefighters Tackle Fire at Falmouth Docks

Quote:
Jamie Clark, who was staying about 60m (200ft) from the scene of the fire, said he was woken up by explosions.
Quote:
"The building's fire alarm went off and they started evacuating people.

"Then there was some massive, massive explosions and we saw a big raging fire on top of these canisters," he told the BBC
Winter Haven Fire Claims 3 Homes

Quote:
"We ran out of water, we waited for more water. Then started attacking the explosions... We have multiple explosions..."
Quote:
Chief Taylor says the rural location of the fire combined with multiple explosions made it difficult to contain.
Firefighters battle three-alarm fire involving explosions

Quote:
As more firefighters responded to the fire, more callers reported hearing explosions
Quote:
While he was on the phone trying to reach Ottawa fire, Gallagher and St. Amour heard about three explosions and felt the heat from the fire.
Fire at Twin Village Recycling
Quote:
There were reports of explosions at the fire scene. A viewer submitted YOU NEWS video of what was an apparent explosion before the smoke started to billow.
Before the resident conspiracy proponents claim "this has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 conspiracies" allow me to remind each of you that quotes like these are exactly what 9/11 truth/conspiracy proponents use to claim that explosives were present in the WTC, so as with tri's recent thread, referring to these examples is perfectly relevant.
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Old 28th June 2011, 04:28 AM   #21
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People describing explosions, blasts and even that these things sounded like bombs going off are common even when the people KNOW they AREN'T describing actual bombs.

My video I made with only 3 examples to demonstrate, others in this thread have more:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


This reminds me of the other truther myth that molten metal and people reporting molten steel was strange on 911, when you can find loads of reports of exactly that kind of thing in other fires.

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Old 28th June 2011, 05:01 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by sdemetri View Post
Hardly debunked.

Many firefighters reported massive explosions just prior to the buildings collapsing.

NIST doesn't substantiate the damage it reports on in the sub levels that occurred, according to the interviews NIST conducted, in the first 5 to 8 minutes after the plane struck WTC 1.

Hardly debunked. Gaping holes in the official conspiracy theory.
Explosions in the basement do not cause a building to start its collapse 1,000 feet overhead.

Period. Debunked. Move on.
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Old 28th June 2011, 05:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
... To give some perspective, this thread was posted 2 and a half years ago and not a single statement has been made on the part of self-referred "9/11 skeptics" to explain how they concluded that the only reason for the reports of explosions is the presence of incendiaries and explosive charges.

...

Before the resident conspiracy proponents claim "this has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 conspiracies" allow me to remind each of you that quotes like these are exactly what 9/11 truth/conspiracy proponents use to claim that explosives were present in the WTC, so as with tri's recent thread, referring to these examples is perfectly relevant.
9/11 sceptics don't have to show that explosives is the only explanation. I think that bar is too high. But they should show that explosives would be the best, or at least a likely, explanation.

This could, for example, be done by figuring out the percentage of larger building fires that exhibit sounds of explosions, and the percentage of fires with reported explosions where explosives were indeed the cause of the sounds, and maybe the percentage of fires where the explosives that were heard were installed in porpose to demolish the building. These observed percentages are a first step towards establishing likelihoods. The likelihood is of course some Baysean product of the initial (before observations) likelihood that explosives are present or used with the likelyhood that the observation is explained by such, etc.

It's much like testing for colon cancer: I am 43 years old and have no family background and no risk factors for the desease. The likelihood that I have colon cancer is very low still. If I then get a positive result from a quick standard test, the likelihood that I have colon cancer is still not alarmingly high, because that test produces more than 1% of false positives. Most guys my age and risk category that get a positive result are in fact negative.
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Old 28th June 2011, 02:04 PM   #24
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This is what I sounded like 2 1/2 years ago? Goodness. It's like I've been getting LESS mature as I age. How does that happen?
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Old 28th June 2011, 02:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
This is what I sounded like 2 1/2 years ago? Goodness. It's like I've been getting LESS mature as I age. How does that happen?
With me it's the tequila. Your mileage may vary
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Old 29th June 2011, 10:43 AM   #26
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If any truther has the balls is interested, I am extending an invitation to our next "live-burn" in our fire district. We are supposed to be ready to go with another dwelling by early autumn.

You may show up and watch...hell, I won't even ask to meet you. You can just stand with the other spectators and observe. As soon as I have a date/time that we are supposed to do it, I'll post it here. Just so you know, this will be in a suburb town of Buffalo, NY.

Fair Advanced Warning: The explosions and loud noises you'll hear are not bombs or demolition materials of any kind. Just fire doing what it does.
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Old 29th June 2011, 01:49 PM   #27
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Can we look for another Murthad video on You Tube?
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Old 29th June 2011, 01:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Can we look for another Murthad video on You Tube?
Probably...but that's not me. That's a local guy here who runs the website www.ecfwire.com. He or someone on his team will respond to big calls and special firefighter events in the area and put them up on his website.

This was a call we had a couple days back at a junkyard fire. Was pretty intense.

http://www.ecfwire.com/page2080.html
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Old 29th June 2011, 04:13 PM   #29
leftysergeant
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
This was a call we had a couple days back at a junkyard fire. Was pretty intense.

http://www.ecfwire.com/page2080.html
Intense looks like an understatement. It usually involves a lot of heat when you see the main body of the fire twisting like that.


I'm sure there was more than a trace of really noxious fumes in the air.

BTW, is that big red crash rig by any chance and Oshkosh P-23?
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Old 30th June 2011, 10:09 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Intense looks like an understatement. It usually involves a lot of heat when you see the main body of the fire twisting like that.

I'm sure there was more than a trace of really noxious fumes in the air.
Yeah, there was a lot of fuel in there. The magnesium kept re-igniting as well. My company (Bellevue) was only on scene for a brief time, and that was mainly as relief near the end (prior to that, we were playing traffic cops a bit down the road). Even so, when we finally went in, there were still pockets of fire and the heat and fumes were pretty overwhelming.

Incident Command had the news tell everyone within a 2 miles radius to stay in their homes and close the windows...that's how bad the fumes were.

The good thing was that no one got hurt. Made the incident somewhat enjoyable...if you know what I mean


Quote:
BTW, is that big red crash rig by any chance and Oshkosh P-23?
Not sure. It's one of the crash rigs from the Buffalo/Niagara Airport (which is only a few miles north of where the fire was). They got called in to use the foam. I can try to look it up...
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Old 30th June 2011, 10:26 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by GodisEnergy View Post
yea but dont take out of context the 118 firefighter who heard the explosions like going around the building pop pop pop below the fire region,or even in the basement
The only ones taking those 118 firefighters out of context is you 911 kooks...

Hence the title of the thread.

911 kooks are too brainwashed by internet nonsense to understand that there are lots of things during building fires that would cause loud noises. There are also lots of things building fires that could "explode".
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Old 30th June 2011, 05:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
Yeah, there was a lot of fuel in there. The magnesium kept re-igniting as well.
And with the clutter around the site, I would imagine there might have been a few pockets of trapped hydrogen to worry about.

Quote:
The good thing was that no one got hurt. Made the incident somewhat enjoyable...if you know what I mean.
Kind of like hunting grizzlies. A real rush when you score, but you have to remind yourself that the bear doesn't always lose.
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