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25th March 2011, 07:06 AM | #121 |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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25th March 2011, 10:20 PM | #122 |
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...kuXjKg&cad=rja
Office fires burn at about 1400oF - 760oC At 800oC - 1470oF the amount of vaporation is zero. At 900oC - 1650oF the amount of vaporation is negligible. At 1000oC - 1800oF the amount of vaporation is minimal. At 3182oF - 1750oC lead vaporizes. Any vapor created before the collapse left the building with the smoke. The collapse put the office fires out. Another source of heat vaporized the lead after it was crushed in the collapse. RJ Lee Group report 2004 pg 12 [pdf pg 13] The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicate the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool.
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25th March 2011, 10:47 PM | #123 |
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As everything was pulverized and mixed together on the way down, the fires went out. For a fire to keep going, the burning combustibles have to ignite other combustibles next to them but tiny burning particles of combustible material would burn out quickly.
How can pulverized combustibles in a pile burn when they are mixed with a greater quantity of pulverized noncombustible and no fire to start with? Try to start a fire in a pile of pulverized combustibles, mixed with a greater quantity of pulverized noncombustibles like concrete,drywall and rock wool. |
26th March 2011, 08:03 AM | #124 |
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Hmmm, So you are saying there were no fires in the pile? That there were no ignition sources underground? Lets see... there were cars and trucks full of fuel and with batteries, gas lines, mineral oils from transformers, thousands and thousands of tons of paper, furniture, etc, etc. The list of fuel sources is endless.
The collapse snuffed out the large fires above but undoubtedly there were hot embers and smoldering material that made it all the way down. Friction and sparks from metal settling could also ignite fuel sources. Maybe if I tried to start a fire in a wheelbarrow full of a mix of non-combustibles and combustibles I would have some difficulty but in a debris field 16 acres square, 50 or more feel high and many stories deep... not so much. |
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"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus |
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26th March 2011, 08:13 AM | #125 |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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26th March 2011, 08:23 AM | #126 |
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Another example from my job. This one concerning batteries, fuel, and misplaced pieces of metal. Forklift operators have a bad habit of leaving pull chains on the hoods of their machines. On a few occasions, those chains have worked their way into the engine compartment and settled on the starter. Bye bye forklift!
Starters use a heavy cable directly hooked to the battery so essentially the B+ (battery positive) on the starter is the same thing as B+ on the battery (unless the cable is bad and is dropping voltage across it). The frame of the starter is bolted to the block which is bolted to the frame which is hooked up to B- as almost all IC machines, trucks, and cars use a frame ground (a lot of old ones used to use a positive grounded frame). When the chains hit the B+ terminal while laying on the starter it directly shorts the battery, and since it's a crappy connection, it produces sparks and LOTS of heat. Dust and papers (they are also bad with paperwork all over the hoods and getting in there) then ignite. Then I get the call for the rental. lol It isn't hard to see that same or similar situations happened to at least some of the vehicles underground. Lets not forget every emergency light in the complex was basically a battery pack as well. |
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"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus |
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26th March 2011, 12:42 PM | #127 |
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No
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17 gallons of kerosene falling 1000 feet down a 10 ft by 10 ft elevator shaft would burn up before it got to the basement levels and the overpressure would be relieved out the top. Kerosene is not as volatile as gasoline, that's why it is used in lamps. The gases expand at a much slower rate and don't have a lot of pushing power. 10,000 gal kerosene. 1/3 burned up in the fireball. That leaves ~6,700 gal Divided by 40,000 sq/ft = .1675 gal per sq/ft A 10 x 10 ft elevator shaft = 100 sq/ft x .1675 = 16.75 gallons falling down the shaft.
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26th March 2011, 02:01 PM | #128 |
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At 1:26 "As time went by you realized that everything was pulverized. There were no desks, there were no phones. Maybe now and then you would find a fragment of something but basically, everything was just pulverized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCrin...layer_embedded "You don't find a desk, you don't find a chair, you don't find a telephone, computer. The biggest piece of a telephone I found was half of a keypad" http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...eos/index.html |
26th March 2011, 02:19 PM | #129 |
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Have you ever heard about figures of speech? Have you ever seen any picture of WTC debris? Do you really think everything was literally pulverized? Tell me, how could he have found a telephone keypad if everything was literally pulverized (as you are suggesting)? |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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26th March 2011, 03:10 PM | #130 |
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He used the word "pulverized" literally and qualified "everything" by saying:
"Maybe now and then you would find a fragment of something" RJ Lee 2003 report pg 2 "Building contents of the WTC included computers and other electronic equipment, fluorescent lights, furniture, office supplies, and a myriad of other items. The brittle and friable components of these materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires." |
26th March 2011, 03:15 PM | #131 |
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26th March 2011, 03:16 PM | #132 |
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26th March 2011, 03:27 PM | #133 |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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26th March 2011, 04:09 PM | #134 |
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RJ Lee 2004 report
Pg 8 "Additional Testing and Results Reported Herein: S1: Aerosolization of Ultra Fine Fibers and Particles from WTC Dust Pg 9 "The National Resources Defense Council (NRDC) report estimated more than 1.2 million tons of building materials were pulverized during the WTC Event including an estimated 300 to 400 tons of asbestos,35 mainly from insulation and from fireproofing." |
26th March 2011, 04:26 PM | #135 |
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26th March 2011, 04:57 PM | #136 |
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The total weight of the Trade Towers was 1,500,000 tons including 50,000 tons of steel in each tower.
Total components other than steel* = 1.4 million tons. 1,400,000 - 1,200,000 = 200,000 tons not pulverized 200,000 `/. 1,400,000 = 14% of the components* in the debris pile were not pulverized. 86% of the debris pile* was pulverized dust. This pulverized dust would leave few if any air pockets other than inside the columns in the upper portion of the debris pile. |
26th March 2011, 06:40 PM | #137 |
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You know nothing
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I'll be the best Congressman money can buy! As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah |
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26th March 2011, 07:13 PM | #138 |
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Christopher7 still basking in ignorance
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911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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26th March 2011, 08:04 PM | #139 |
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26th March 2011, 08:57 PM | #140 |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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26th March 2011, 09:12 PM | #141 |
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Find the dust!
Heres an array of images taken on september 21, 10 days after the attacks, So tell me Sarns, Where did "1,200,000 tons" of your dust go in ten days?
http://www.zombietime.com/wtc_9-13-2001/ |
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911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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26th March 2011, 10:09 PM | #142 |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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26th March 2011, 10:22 PM | #143 |
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All over lower Manhattan and under the steel on top. But I see voids so I'm going to concede the point.
However The fires were put out as the building and everything in it was pulverized. The pulverized combustible contents of the Trade Towers were mixed in with 1,200,000 tons of pulverized building material. The combustibles would smolder if heated sufficiently but would not burn because they were dispersed in noncombustible material. |
26th March 2011, 11:04 PM | #144 |
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“Much of the 9/11 story has not been told to the public" - Steven Badger, attorney for insurance litigators affected by the WTC disaster. |
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27th March 2011, 05:55 AM | #145 |
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You are acting just like a twoofer, and conveniently skipped the highlighted part.
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So, after reading the entire paragraph in the correct context, tell me, do you think that "pulverization of these items" refers to the all 1.2 million tons of debris or refers only to the items mentioned above (that created an environmental hazard)? |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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27th March 2011, 06:30 AM | #146 |
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"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus |
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27th March 2011, 06:32 AM | #147 |
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Vuelve el perro arrepentido con sus orejas caidas con el hocico partido y con el rabo entre las patas Vuelve el perro arrepentido con sus orejas caidas con el hocico partido y con el rabo entre las patas (El verso es repetido 44 veces) Not true. |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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27th March 2011, 08:42 AM | #148 |
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How much was pulverized then, Carlos? And what is the point you're trying to make? |
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“Much of the 9/11 story has not been told to the public" - Steven Badger, attorney for insurance litigators affected by the WTC disaster. |
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27th March 2011, 09:20 AM | #149 |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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27th March 2011, 10:45 AM | #150 |
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My bad. I am a contractor and "building materials" means materials used in construction so I stopped when I saw "building materials" and just copied that sentence. The NRDC does not differentiate between materials used in construction and the contents of the building.
This changes the math but not the point. The noncombustible building materials used in the construction of the towers such as the concrete, drywall, insulation and glass were pulverized along with the noncombustible building contents like filing cabinets. There is no estimate of how much the combustible contents weighed that I know of so no accurate estimate of the proportions can be made. Sufice it to say that the dust in the debris piles contained far more noncombustible particles than combustible particles. The combustible particles in the dust in the debris pile could not burn because they were mixed with a greater amount of noncombustible particles. If they could burn, the dust would have caught on fire. |
27th March 2011, 10:50 AM | #151 |
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27th March 2011, 10:52 AM | #152 |
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Incorrect, the report says:
"The National Resources Defense Council (NRDC) report estimated more than 1.2 million tons of building materials were pulverized during the WTC Event including an estimated 300 to 400 tons of asbestos" Pg 9 [pdf pg 10] http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%2...04.1646.mp.pdf |
27th March 2011, 10:55 AM | #153 |
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27th March 2011, 10:57 AM | #154 |
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So they were taken after the dust was removed, revealing things beneath that weren't literally pulverized to dust. Does anybody have any idea how large the parking areas were beneath the towers? If I can recall from '93 (OOH!! Precedent) there's at least 5 levels of parking. Is that right? One would think 1,350' of steel and concrete landing on a bunch of cars and trucks would cause them to catch fire. Cars that are made of aluminum which can easily account for the "molten metal" at the scene. Since there were no reports of molten metal prior to the collapses, is this not a viable theory? |
27th March 2011, 11:01 AM | #155 |
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27th March 2011, 11:05 AM | #156 |
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27th March 2011, 12:14 PM | #157 |
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Well this another one say: "The National Resources Defense Council (NRDC) report estimated more than 1.2 million tons of building materials collapsed during the WTC Event" http://web.archive.org/web/200601141...logy.Final.pdf |
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In most cases debating with a 9/11 truther is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory. The customer with the knife is always right - Quohog, the bartender |
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27th March 2011, 12:38 PM | #158 |
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The things in the dust in that photo were pieces of steel.
At 1:26 "As time went by you realized that everything was pulverized. There were no desks, there were no phones. Maybe now and then you would find a fragment of something but basically, everything was just pulverized. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCrin...layer_embedded "You don't find a desk, you don't find a chair, you don't find a telephone, computer. The biggest piece of a telephone I found was half of a keypad" http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...eos/index.html
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Ground zero ironworkers on 9/11 anomalies At 2:05 "The grapplers were pulling stuff out, big sections of iron that were literally on fire at the other end. They would hit the air and burst into flames." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCrin...layer_embedded |
27th March 2011, 12:57 PM | #159 |
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27th March 2011, 01:00 PM | #160 |
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