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24th June 2011, 02:35 PM | #41 |
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Again, false. One more time: Astaneh-Asl left the day after, and began work within one week of the tragedy. There were also local professionals from the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) there on the 12th as well. Furthermore, as noted in the FEMA BPS, FEMA and SEI/ASCE had by the 12th already assembled and dispatched team members to assist with the cleanup and begin the initial surveys. The arrival of the bulk of the team shouldn't be taken as the first time any non-emergency personnel were allowed at Ground Zero. And the fact that the Building Performance Study Team did not start formal investigation of the rubble until after search and resue operations were conducted - and not incidentally, until after they had also taken the time to meet and plan, as noted in the first chapter of the BPS - does not give weight to your insinuation that the site was not attended by trained investigators in the time between the event and October 7, the date of the FEMA BPS team's official "start".
Furthermore, you ignore the fact that FBI, NYPD, US Customs agents, FDNY investigators (not just firefighters), and the like were present in the immediate aftermath, even before the bulk of the FEMA team was there. And as far as "destroying" the steel: If you're referring to the disassembly of all the towers components at Ground Zero, this was necessary for rescue, then afterwards for cleanup purposes. If you're referring to the recycling process, you ignore the fact that this "hurry" ended up taking well into 2002. Furthermore, not all of it was sent away. Up till 2006 and possibly later, some of it was still available in the temporary storage area in the JFK airport hangar. And there are individual pieces all over the US (and one in Canada) serving as monuments; one just came through Indianapolis, In. a couple of months ago. We've seen this argument before, that these "Powers That Be" hurriedly shipped off the debris in order to cover something up. Do a search for previous threads on the topic. And also: Get up to speed. I provided links earlier that you need to internalize in order to be at the same level of knowledge as anyone else here, truther or not, and you're not studying them. You need to get that base level of knowledge first. I recommend you suspend your posting for a bit and read that material. |
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24th June 2011, 02:37 PM | #42 |
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Ok, one more time: NCSTAR 1-3C. 1-3 is a study of the steel recovered from around the impact zones, and 1-3C is the cataloguing of it. I already refered you to it.
Again, read the material that has been given to you. You are not doing this. You are merely making charges based on ignorance. |
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24th June 2011, 02:42 PM | #43 |
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NCSTAR 1-3 Tells me that more than 99% of the relevant material was destroyed. Your researchers did a great job under harsh conditions, but somebody else was making the rules.
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24th June 2011, 02:47 PM | #44 |
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Incorrect. 100% of the relevant material - i.e. the steel around the collapse initiation zones - was studied by the NIST researchers. And prior to that, other organizations had also studied the steel. WPI, for example. The FDNY as well. The steel that was not studied by NIST was examined by the FEMA BPA teams and discarded as irrelevant to the collapse initiation.
Don't conflate NIST not studying various components with nobody studying 90+% of the steel. Both the FBI and FDNY would be aghast to hear that claim. So would the FEMA BPST and the SEAoNY. You're trotting out the old truther claims. You need to do searches of this forum before posting a claim. This is ground that's already been covered years ago. |
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24th June 2011, 02:50 PM | #45 |
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Oh Mr DeathDart.
What laws were broken exactly? You made this claim that was obviously feed to you by someone else (like all your "thinking"). Try a little brain work, WHAT LAW WAS BROKEN? |
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24th June 2011, 02:51 PM | #46 |
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More:
Again: http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lie...lssortingopera. You need to read not just the info gathered up and put on this page, but the other sources cited and linked on it. |
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24th June 2011, 03:03 PM | #47 |
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I'm at a loss to understand what the relevance of examining the columns from the impact zones would be for the purpose of understanding the collapses. If you want to work out the effect of the impact damage on the stability of the structure the relevant information would most likely be which columns were broken and where they were broken. That can be derived from the photographic record.
That record was extensive enough to permit NIST to do a column-by-column comparison of the actual pattern of damage with that predicted by their impact simulations, to determine what set of initial conditions gave the best fit to the actual damage. See NCSTAR 1-2, pdf pages 382-391. Perhaps examining the columns broken by the plane impacts might have added to humanity's store of knowledge of the behavior of structural steel under very high strain rate conditions, and that would have been a good thing from the point of view of science, but its relevance to CT claims utterly escapes me. |
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24th June 2011, 03:10 PM | #48 |
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Quote:
Coward. |
24th June 2011, 08:57 PM | #49 |
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Actually I consider the Thermite to be only a possibility, not a probability.
Before it could be a possibility I had to figure out a way to make it technically feasible. Without a confession and most of the evidence intentionally destroyed it is only a possibility. As far as grading the idea of the evidence being intentionally destroyed it is a strong probability. Too many unusual events were necessary and the connections between potential conspirators are strong. If Mr Giuliani passed a properly given counterintelligence polygraph I would be very surprised. But why would anybody make him take one? The powerful are above the law, at least they thought so. |
24th June 2011, 09:33 PM | #50 |
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What sweet madness is this?
And you're going to provide evidence instead of speculation...when? For example, how much thermite would be required, roughly? Given that there was an explosion when the planes hit, wouldn't undetonated dust be thrown all over Manahattan? Has this "magnetic thermite" ever been used in demolitions before, let alone anything as...unconventional as 9/11?
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Also, you are indirectly accusing the thousands of FBI agents who participated in the investigation of being in on it.
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Only in the case of 7. Since 7 is one building, not several, I would like to point out that the 1 and 2 collapses were blamed on both the plane impact and fire.
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24th June 2011, 09:38 PM | #51 |
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I assure you, it would be quite impossible with either of those.
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24th June 2011, 09:47 PM | #52 |
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Name the law. Cite it please.
(I wouldn't reccommend using NFPA 921 either. I'll take you to school on that one.) Except for the parts that hit neighboring buildings like Fitterman Hall, the Verizon Building, and the Post Office. But yeah, except for those parts.... And anyone who actually knows the first thing about building construction, failure prevention, fire protection engineering, or fire science, files them under the non-fiction category.....but hey, who cares about them, right? An unknown on an obscure website forum says differently..... You're absolutely correct on that. Fire tends to cause things to fail. Especially steel. Citation needed that it wasn't. You mean like they had offices there? Makes perfect sense to me. Citation needed. |
25th June 2011, 03:08 AM | #53 |
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Another weird way of truther logic: They suggest that there is some "usual" course of action about events like 9/11, Because the word "unusual" implies just that.
However, 9/11 was a day like no other before or after. Nothing about what happened there was "usual" in any way, shape or form, and, appropriately, the response to it involved all sorts of novel, one-of-a-kind decisions and eactions. For example: The huge effort expended on huge investigations, some of which were the largest of their respective kinds ever (criminal, forensic engineering, medical forensics, ...), is certainly "unusual". The financial impact, the inner-city infrastructure challenges are unrivalled and demanded "unusual" decisions and efforts. There is nothing unusual about an unusual event spawning unusual responses. |
25th June 2011, 08:39 AM | #54 |
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Originally Posted by DeathDart
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26th June 2011, 06:54 AM | #55 |
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26th June 2011, 09:27 AM | #56 |
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Ok, I was thinking about the whole idea of Thermite Pellets On A Plane last night, and I have some questions for DeathDart.
1) Just what size would these pellets be? 1 mm diameter? Less than 1 mm? More like 5 mm? Bigger? 2) Is the plan for the pellets to adhere to the bar joists, the core columns, the exterior columns or all of the above? 3) So the plane flies into the building at 500 mph. The pellets are in a relatively small area of the flying debris, right? Then there is a fairly big explosion, which could scatter the pellets about at pretty high velocities in EVERY direction, including OUTSIDE the structure altogether? 4) In areas where the fireproofing is not knocked off the beams and columns, are the magnetic pellets going to magnet to the fireproofing or drywall or are you expecting them to just lodge there? If they are lodged in fireproofing, how will they catch fire? 5) Are pellets being propelled at speeds of 500 mph or more going to adhere to columns, or bounce off? 6) Isn't there a probability that the bag(s) of pellets will continue on through the building and out the other side, given that some of the engines and numerous of the other plane components did? Is that a risk the PTB is willing to take? 7) The plan depends on there being a fire in the area where the pellets have adhered large enough to activate them. What if the fire isn't really in that area? 8) What if the pellets end up mostly going down the elevator shafts? 9) How much damage can an individual pellet do to a heavy structural steel column? Would it just burn a hole through it and then stop or what? How would PTB assure that there were enough pellets actually making it onto columns to initiate the collapses? Anyone else feel free to speculate |
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26th June 2011, 10:24 AM | #57 |
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Wouldn't the collapse start immediately, instead of ~1 hr later?
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26th June 2011, 12:31 PM | #58 |
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And don't forget, thermite requires a very high temp igniter, usually magnesium.
So how was the supposed "magnetic" thermite deposited randomly through the structure ignited? |
26th June 2011, 12:54 PM | #59 |
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26th June 2011, 01:20 PM | #60 |
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Big pile of FAIL. You still have to actualy place the magnets against the steel. The magnets would not just buzz around like a bunch of blowflies looking for a corpse until they found the steel. A lot of it should have passed right through the buildings and totally escaped the fires. It would have been noticeable stuck to vehicles all over the place down-range. No magnet residues were seen anywhere.
And you still have the problem of the light that it would produce. Sorry, no other way to rate a post with this much fail in it. |
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26th June 2011, 01:34 PM | #61 |
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Idiotic suggestion. It would be like leaving crash victims sitting in burning cars in a freeway pile-up until you coud get a blood alcohol level of every driver involved. Do go learn some law before you say stupid things like that in a room where there are fire fighters present.
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26th June 2011, 02:29 PM | #62 |
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Let's also not forget that steel from the impact zones was recovered, and had thermite been on the jets (Jesus, that's such a dumb proposition...), and had it somehow magically acted like Dart here says could've happened, the signs would've been obvious.
Yet, only mechanical stresses are seen. Imagine that. |
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26th June 2011, 04:49 PM | #63 |
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26th June 2011, 09:22 PM | #64 |
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POSSIBLE Thermite Coup De Grace
It was an MM not the Red Pill
They tell me it is good practice for being cross examined. Ok I will try to limit my comments to the technical properties of a Possible Thermite Ring or Rod Shaped Magnetic Material Charged (magnetized) so that two poles are at opposite sides of the ring or on opposite poles of the rod. The reach of the magnet is roughly equal to the spacing between poles. NdFeB magnets are very strong and are quite flammable. Eutectic mixing of Nd with steel can bring the melting point down to about 1100C Inside the ring or around the rod would be a whiffle structure. Like a whiffle ball. This will give high aerodynamic drag. The whiffle and the ring create a light weight structure which can roll. By the time the baggage compartment would rupture, the velocity would be below 500mph. The magnet structures would be dispersed in a rough asymmetric cone shaped area from the point of rupture. Because of gravity this would be a cone shape on the floor of the impact area. Some would stick high up, but not many. Two factors would allow them to be concentrated after dispersion, gravity and high velocity air flow. The impact would have knocked the fireproofing off the steel in many locations. The magnets would be dispersed on a surface plane that was heavily damaged, holes, twisting etc, The airflow would be erratic but strong in some areas. They would blow about on the surface until they encountered bare steel, a hole, or another magnet. The ones encountering bare steel would be anchored. The ones encountering holes will stick on just this, or just on the other side of a hole, out of the airflow. A hole in the steel, but not in the fireproofing nearby seems unlikely. It would be a very difficult problem statistically to determine group size and dispersion. Assuming that at least 50% of the material would group with one other magnet, you could get large groups containing .1 to .2 percent of the total material. Assume 2000lbs of original material. Some groups/ clusters could contain between 2 to 4 pounds of material. Say 10% of the total material is in clumps this size. At 3 pounds per cluster and 200 pounds this would be about 66 clumps. As the bonding material flows from nearby heat source it could expose a surface that will ignite on contact with heated oxygen (not at room temperature). Some will light immediately to minimal effect. Some magnets will go to areas where they will never light before the main clusters. If the magnets were not coated or had a coating that was not waterproof they will rapidly corrode in contact with water. First Iteration |
26th June 2011, 10:00 PM | #65 |
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26th June 2011, 10:05 PM | #66 |
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Here's a question I must ask the answer to which I'm sure will surely show DD how absurd they're being: Is possible to get access to that warehouse/hanger?
Overly complicated devices being used to bring down a couple of buildings in New York and kill thousands (maybe millions) of innocent people... and for what exactly? Don't forget if it was ever exposed the government would be facing a revolt they wouldn't be getting out of alive. So what is the point of the government engineering 9/11? |
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26th June 2011, 10:14 PM | #67 |
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A second thin layer of cesium or potassium metal below the bonding material and on the magnet will ignite spontaneously with heated air. The magnet is the thermite.
The delay is the charing or melting of the bonding material by a heat source and then heated oxygen contacting the cesium or potassium. Ignition is delayed until the bonding material chars or melts off. This assumes that the metal is cooler than the air temperature and the bond to the steel is maintained. |
26th June 2011, 10:16 PM | #68 |
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This guy did, 9 years later, steel's still there (atleast alot of it is):
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...026596578.html ETA: http://www.911memorial.org/blog/tags/hangar-17 |
26th June 2011, 10:23 PM | #69 |
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26th June 2011, 10:40 PM | #70 |
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If it was a real investigation they would have recovered 60% to 80% of the affected floors STEEL.
The only recoverable concrete would have been wrapped in steel. They kept less than 1% of the affected floors steel! What you see in that warehouse has some information like: How hot does steel have to be that it can be bent like that without fracturing? It is possible that there was concrete or other steel in the loop when it was formed. If beating on metal can heat it, what happens when it gets pounded by the rest of the building? It looks weird but it doesn't answer what happened at the impact floors. The NIST NCSTAR inventory list is a joke. There isn't enough samples of the important areas except to say there was a fire. As far as making a model on this little. Saying anything more than there was a fire and trying to deduce a model from it would be pure speculation. Of course they would say it was a fire started by an aircraft fuel. Because there was not enough evidence SAVED for any other conclusion. My point is :Why wasn't more of the material saved. Saying you inspected it is not adequate. The rush to smelt it all, makes no sense. The simplest motive is that there COULD have been something there that would not support the official story and they made sure it was not found. |
26th June 2011, 11:14 PM | #71 |
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The simplest motive is that there COULD have been something there that would not support the official story and they made sure it was not found.
I am not talking about the official story about the buildings collapsing! I am talking about the official story about what happened on the hijacked airliners! Something physical could have survived that would have shown the official story to be a lie. Israelis from the Securacom were crawling all over those planes at all of the departure points. What would Israelis get if the official story flies. We attacked and destroyed their strongest enemy Iraq. An attack which was NOT (in any way) for the Best interests of the United States. But only if the official story holds. Do you remember what happened to the Japanese for Pearl Harbor? Do the names Hiroshima and Nagasaki ring a bell? If this is a conspiracy of the BIG LIE cracks, a lot of those (that may be) involved will be lucky to make it to prison. They have everything at stake to keep the BIG LIE going. At this point we have a horriblly screwed up investigation that points to intentional destruction of evidence. The reports I believe were meant to be worthless. By itself, it is not damning, but in context with the other events leading up to 9-11 it looks much worse. |
26th June 2011, 11:41 PM | #72 |
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and I suppose the absence of anything in the building rubble to substantiate the existence of your self-socialising potassium-filled rare earth magnet thermite dumbbells is the proof that they were used?
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26th June 2011, 11:54 PM | #73 |
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And here we are...back to the "big bad Jews"...sigh. Seriously...securacom israelis?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratesec http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroll_Inc. Funny...I see no links to Israel at all from Stratesec(aka Securacom) or through Kroll,inc. (who were actually in charge of WTC security, ya know, that guy John O'neill who died in the towers? Former FBI Anti-terrorism expert, yeah he worked for Kroll) |
27th June 2011, 12:06 AM | #74 |
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So they are saying the Jews did it? I know several Jews, my Mom is a Jew as was my Grandfather (though he died long before I got a chance to know him) and while you can't judge a whole group of people by a relative hand full, I still find it hard to believe the Jewish nation would launch a terrorist attack against their staunchest supporters and biggest allies.
So DD, do please enlighten me. Why the Jews? |
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27th June 2011, 12:12 AM | #75 |
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Securacom and Shin Bet Google it
I have to retract the statement About Giuliani being a traitor. It appears he was just stupid and greedy. By waving that money in his face he would have not even thought about why they needed to remove the debris that quickly. I also have to retract the statement about Hiroshima and Nagasaki being for vengeance. It was militarily necessary and saved lives on both sides. I learned the truth by not making up my mind and just following the evidence. Knowing something is a 1000 times worse than suspecting it. |
27th June 2011, 12:18 AM | #76 |
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Mudcat when I said I admired the Jews I was not lying.
The Zealots brought the Hammer of the Romans down on them. Power turned some Jews into Zealots in the present. I sincerely hope that not all Jews are punished for the crimes of a few. The Zionist experiment has died, strangled by the Zealots. |
27th June 2011, 12:29 AM | #77 |
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27th June 2011, 12:32 AM | #78 |
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America is now so corrupt, we make the Romans look like Girl Scouts.
The Jews couldn't have done it alone. America has been breeding Fascists for nearly 30 years. They don't even realize what they are. The Israelis were the muscle and the brains. The money was American. The Politicians: At first it was just Republicans then both parties became corrupt. How much money did it take for corporations to have the rights of living people? If this does not change soon..... there may be an act of G*D. |
27th June 2011, 03:45 AM | #79 |
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stop with the mindless ideological rhetoric deathdart; it has no power over rational people. Stick with facts.
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27th June 2011, 05:21 AM | #80 |
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You ask the impossible. I'm sat here laughing my head off - I had to take DD off ignore for the giggles, but it's worth it. I think people like him seem to think that CSI/TV/Hollywood is real and that if they just make stuff up it can be done and is therefore real.
His idea to carry "2000lbs of original material" in an aircraft has a serious flaw that makes it unworkable from the start. I wonder if he can work it out? |
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