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Old 27th June 2011, 05:33 AM   #81
Grassy Knowlington
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Didn't that nutcase say that all large buildings had demolition charges built into them?
They should have used the bloke that built my shed. No explosives or plane impact was required to make it collapse.
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Old 27th June 2011, 06:19 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
It was an MM not the Red Pill
They tell me it is good practice for being cross examined.

Ok I will try to limit my comments to the technical properties of a Possible Thermite

Ring or Rod Shaped Magnetic Material

Charged (magnetized) so that two poles are at opposite sides of the ring or on opposite poles of the rod.

The reach of the magnet is roughly equal to the spacing between poles. NdFeB magnets are very strong and are quite flammable. Eutectic mixing of Nd with steel can bring the melting point down to about 1100C

Inside the ring or around the rod would be a whiffle structure. Like a whiffle ball.

This will give high aerodynamic drag.

The whiffle and the ring create a light weight structure which can roll.

By the time the baggage compartment would rupture, the velocity would be below 500mph. The magnet structures would be dispersed in a rough asymmetric cone shaped area from the point of rupture.

Because of gravity this would be a cone shape on the floor of the impact area. Some would stick high up, but not many.

Two factors would allow them to be concentrated after dispersion, gravity and high velocity air flow.

The impact would have knocked the fireproofing off the steel in many locations.

The magnets would be dispersed on a surface plane that was heavily damaged, holes, twisting etc,

The airflow would be erratic but strong in some areas.

They would blow about on the surface until they encountered bare steel, a hole, or another magnet.

The ones encountering bare steel would be anchored.

The ones encountering holes will stick on just this, or just on the other side of a hole, out of the airflow. A hole in the steel, but not in the fireproofing nearby seems unlikely.

It would be a very difficult problem statistically to determine group size and dispersion.

Assuming that at least 50% of the material would group with one other magnet, you could get large groups containing .1 to .2 percent of the total material.

Assume 2000lbs of original material.

Some groups/ clusters could contain between 2 to 4 pounds of material. Say 10% of the total material is in clumps this size. At 3 pounds per cluster and 200 pounds this would be about 66 clumps.

As the bonding material flows from nearby heat source it could expose a surface that will ignite on contact with heated oxygen (not at room temperature).

Some will light immediately to minimal effect. Some magnets will go to areas where they will never light before the main clusters. If the magnets were not coated or had a coating that was not waterproof they will rapidly corrode in contact with water.
First Iteration

...or, 19 terrorist hijackers flew 2 planes into the WTC, 1 into the Pentagon, and 1 crashed into a field in SW PA.

Occam's Razor Rules!
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Old 27th June 2011, 06:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
It was an MM not the Red Pill
They tell me it is good practice for being cross examined.

Ok I will try to limit my comments to the technical properties of a Possible Thermite

Ring or Rod Shaped Magnetic Material

Charged (magnetized) so that two poles are at opposite sides of the ring or on opposite poles of the rod.

The reach of the magnet is roughly equal to the spacing between poles. NdFeB magnets are very strong and are quite flammable. Eutectic mixing of Nd with steel can bring the melting point down to about 1100C

Inside the ring or around the rod would be a whiffle structure. Like a whiffle ball.

This will give high aerodynamic drag.

The whiffle and the ring create a light weight structure which can roll.

By the time the baggage compartment would rupture, the velocity would be below 500mph. The magnet structures would be dispersed in a rough asymmetric cone shaped area from the point of rupture.

Because of gravity this would be a cone shape on the floor of the impact area. Some would stick high up, but not many.

Two factors would allow them to be concentrated after dispersion, gravity and high velocity air flow.

The impact would have knocked the fireproofing off the steel in many locations.

The magnets would be dispersed on a surface plane that was heavily damaged, holes, twisting etc,

The airflow would be erratic but strong in some areas.

They would blow about on the surface until they encountered bare steel, a hole, or another magnet.

The ones encountering bare steel would be anchored.

The ones encountering holes will stick on just this, or just on the other side of a hole, out of the airflow. A hole in the steel, but not in the fireproofing nearby seems unlikely.

It would be a very difficult problem statistically to determine group size and dispersion.

Assuming that at least 50% of the material would group with one other magnet, you could get large groups containing .1 to .2 percent of the total material.

Assume 2000lbs of original material.

Some groups/ clusters could contain between 2 to 4 pounds of material. Say 10% of the total material is in clumps this size. At 3 pounds per cluster and 200 pounds this would be about 66 clumps.

As the bonding material flows from nearby heat source it could expose a surface that will ignite on contact with heated oxygen (not at room temperature).

Some will light immediately to minimal effect. Some magnets will go to areas where they will never light before the main clusters. If the magnets were not coated or had a coating that was not waterproof they will rapidly corrode in contact with water.
First Iteration
The funny thing is he probably labored at least 5 hours to come up with that bunk. Slamming his head against the keyboard.....
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Old 27th June 2011, 06:55 AM   #84
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Well, you know what they say about monkeys and typewriters.
Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
If it was a real investigation they would have recovered 60% to 80% of the affected floors STEEL.
The only recoverable concrete would have been wrapped in steel.
Except for all the large bits of concrete wrapped around steel, as well as the loose bits, yes.

Quote:
They kept less than 1% of the affected floors steel!
Source, please.

Quote:
What you see in that warehouse has some information like: How hot does steel have to be that it can be bent like that without fracturing?
Wrong question. How much strength does steel

Quote:
My point is :Why wasn't more of the material saved. Saying you inspected it is not adequate. The rush to smelt it all, makes no sense.
Except for the large amounts they keep in a warehouse, and buried at Fresh Kills, and sent to people around the country.

Quote:
The simplest motive is that there COULD have been something there that would not support the official story and they made sure it was not found.
How? There were thousands of cops, firefighter, federal agents, etc. crawling all over the debris pile. Your claim says the evidence wasn't found because it was "concealed" in some vague manner(and you've been shown that plenty of it is still available. Heck, tons haven't even left New York City.), when the simplest explanation is that the evidence wasn't found because it wasn't there.

Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
If this is a conspiracy of the BIG LIE cracks, a lot of those (that may be) involved will be lucky to make it to prison. They have everything at stake to keep the BIG LIE going.
As Abraham Lincoln once said, there is an upper limit on bull pucky. If I say I can slam dunk, that's a reasonable lie, right up until they ask me to prove it. If I say I beat Michael Jordan in a nationally televised 1-on-1 game, that's a lot more unbelievable.

Quote:
At this point we have a horriblly screwed up investigation that points to intentional destruction of evidence. The reports I believe were meant to be worthless. By itself, it is not damning, but in context with the other events leading up to 9-11 it looks much worse.
"In-context", a good deal of the thermite would've missed the beams entirely, or been thrown away from the plane by the explosion. We are talking dozens of pounds of thermite per beam. I'm not sure the plane would've had room for the luggage.
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:54 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by 000063
"In-context", a good deal of the thermite would've missed the beams entirely, or been thrown away from the plane by the explosion. We are talking dozens of pounds of thermite per beam. I'm not sure the plane would've had room for the luggage.
You haven't thought this through. They were crashing the plane into a building. No one needed their luggage.

Originally Posted by DeathDart
Inside the ring or around the rod would be a whiffle structure. Like a whiffle ball.

This will give high aerodynamic drag.

The whiffle and the ring create a light weight structure which can roll.
PTB, Sir, we tried some experiments with the magnet-whiffles and the whiffles all melted in the simulated plane explosion. The magnets stuck to the office desks and filing cabinets. The fire burned off the coating in 3 minutes flat, and the melted filing cabinets didn't cause the structure to collapse.

Got any other ideas?

Originally Posted by DeathDart
If this does not change soon..... there may be an act of G*D
Ooooh, like what?
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:02 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
There's been worse. There was a guy - hey, old timers: Was it Christophera? - who tried to claim that the demolitions were installed during the towers construction.

I'm not saying that carrying a load of thermite in the cargo holds on a jetliner isn't right up there in terms of lunacy. I'm only saying that the cuckoo movement is holding true to form.
Yep, that was one of ChristopherA's insane claims. Documented in a PBS documentary that no one else ever saw and that had all evidence of it deleted so no one could ever view it again.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:17 AM   #87
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The entire "kept 1% of the steel" canard is an attempt at misdirection for two reasons:
  1. It is an attempt to paint a narrative where all the other pieces of steel weren't even looked at. This is incorrect. Only identifiable pieces that could be accuratedly traced back to their locations in the towers were actually kept for further examination by NIST, further examination that led to NIST's report. It is a misrepresentation to imply that the steel not appearing in the NIST reports was not examined at all. Don't conspiracy peddlers understand why engineers like Astaneh-Asl and the other SEAoNY engineers were present in New York at the time?

    Steel that was unidentifiable - in other words, damaged or mismarked (or not marked at all) to the point where it could not be determined where it originally came from in the towers - was by and large not included in the NIST report. But that doesn't mean all those other pieces went unexamined, period. How would it have been determined that they could not ID the components' locations had those components gone unexamined?

    Truthers fail to understand that NIST only characterized steel from 1. The impact zones, and 2. Select pieces from below those points. They only mentioned select pieces and not all of the steel components because repetitively stating "floor 77's truss seats showed downward deflection, trussbots showed shear. Floor 76's truss seats showed downward deflection..." would have been unnecessary. They examined the steel, noted that many pieces that couldn't be traced to their original spots in the towers showed signs of the same sorts of failures, went on to keep the best examples from all that for further study, but they characterized failure modes in general for the other, unkept pieces. Why else do any of these conspiracy peddlers think that references were made in the NIST report to those pieces from below the impact zones? Even ones that weren't kept for further examination (example: NCSTAR 1-3C's mentions of truss seats lower in the towers)? And how else would they have been able to describe those pieces without having examined them? Is the truther charge that NIST made those details up?

    Not keeping for further study =/= Not examined at all.

  2. NIST was not the only body that examined the steel. The NYPD Crime Scene Units and the FBI are two notable entities. This always gets glossed over at first. And when it gets mentioned, truthers fall back to the position that those groups are government, therefore suspect, but it still gives lie to the original charge that only a tiny fraction of the steel was examined. They base that charge on figures they pull from the NIST report, but ignoring their ignorance of what NIST studied (see #1 above), that figure is incomplete because it only discusses things from NIST's end, not the NYPD's or FBI's.
These are just two of the many reasons why the whole claim of ignoring the steel components that didn't make it into the NIST report is a deliberate misrepresentation. The rest of the steel was examined - again, why else would those engineers have been present? As well as the FBI and NYPD CSU investigators? - and forwarded pieces of interest to NIST. Only a position of ignorance can turn that into a claim that the other steel was ignored.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:19 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Didn't that nutcase say that all large buildings had demolition charges built into them?
I didn't immediately recall that part, but now that you mention it, I think someone did say that.

That's bonkers-level weird.


Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
They should have used the bloke that built my shed. No explosives or plane impact was required to make it collapse.
See? This is why stumbling around in your yard while drunk is a bad thing.




Originally Posted by JimBenArm View Post
Yep, that was one of ChristopherA's insane claims. Documented in a PBS documentary that no one else ever saw and that had all evidence of it deleted so no one could ever view it again.
Yeah, he was a weird one at that. He was nowhere near as outlandish as some other folks (I mean, it's hard to top space beams for weirdness. Or micronukes). But he was so persistent.

I swear, every time I read one of his posts, I heard a cuckoo clock go off in my head. That couldn't have been a coincidence.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:23 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
Ok I will try to limit my comments to the technical properties of a Possible Thermite

Ring or Rod Shaped Magnetic Material

Charged (magnetized) so that two poles are at opposite sides of the ring or on opposite poles of the rod.

The reach of the magnet is roughly equal to the spacing between poles. NdFeB magnets are very strong and are quite flammable. Eutectic mixing of Nd with steel can bring the melting point down to about 1100C

Inside the ring or around the rod would be a whiffle structure. Like a whiffle ball.

This will give high aerodynamic drag.

The whiffle and the ring create a light weight structure which can roll.

By the time the baggage compartment would rupture, the velocity would be below 500mph. The magnet structures would be dispersed in a rough asymmetric cone shaped area from the point of rupture.

Because of gravity this would be a cone shape on the floor of the impact area. Some would stick high up, but not many.

Two factors would allow them to be concentrated after dispersion, gravity and high velocity air flow.

The impact would have knocked the fireproofing off the steel in many locations.

The magnets would be dispersed on a surface plane that was heavily damaged, holes, twisting etc,

The airflow would be erratic but strong in some areas.

They would blow about on the surface until they encountered bare steel, a hole, or another magnet.

The ones encountering bare steel would be anchored.

The ones encountering holes will stick on just this, or just on the other side of a hole, out of the airflow. A hole in the steel, but not in the fireproofing nearby seems unlikely.

It would be a very difficult problem statistically to determine group size and dispersion.

Assuming that at least 50% of the material would group with one other magnet, you could get large groups containing .1 to .2 percent of the total material.

Assume 2000lbs of original material.

Some groups/ clusters could contain between 2 to 4 pounds of material. Say 10% of the total material is in clumps this size. At 3 pounds per cluster and 200 pounds this would be about 66 clumps.

As the bonding material flows from nearby heat source it could expose a surface that will ignite on contact with heated oxygen (not at room temperature).

Some will light immediately to minimal effect. Some magnets will go to areas where they will never light before the main clusters. If the magnets were not coated or had a coating that was not waterproof they will rapidly corrode in contact with water.
First Iteration
What a great plan! How could it possibly fail?

Like this: As a software developer, I have often found that carefully thought-out plans that work perfectly in my imagination are usually laid waste by the intrusion of the Real World. As soon as I try to actually DO what I'm planning, I am effectively bitch-slapped back to reality by all the issues that I didn't account for in my planning. Sure, it SHOULD work...but only if the universe plays nice and behaves exactly the way you expect it does. That doesn't happen, ever.

Oh, and what you're describing here is especially fail-prone because so many of the behaviors you describe can be verified ahead of time as being realistic or not, and yet you make no attempt to do so.

That would require actual math, and unless I miss my guess, that isn't your strong suit.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:34 AM   #90
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Why wouldn't all these mini super magnets all just stick together in one big lump in their container?
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Old 27th June 2011, 10:03 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why wouldn't all these mini super magnets all just stick together in one big lump in their container?
Because they're all monopoles and repel each other! Duh!
Otherwise it'd screw up the nefariousness of this dastardly plan.
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Old 27th June 2011, 10:59 AM   #92
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You got monopoles, I thought they had a vaccine for that.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:09 AM   #93
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If you have just a bunch of super magnets that can form a solid mass they would probably need to be moving several meters 30-40S for an impact to separate them.

Being in the whiffle structure you could have the poles covered by the whiffle structure so that they don't latch together so strongly.

I visualize it like one of the beards made from bees.

They chain well but don't bind side to side well.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:15 AM   #94
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Quote:
They chain well but don't bind side to side well.
And don't react well to 500mph impacts with skyscrapers resulting in massive fireballs.

Stop it.

There was no thermite anywhere. Proof? Massive fires raging for ~ 1 hour.

It. Did. Not. Happen.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:30 AM   #95
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True there isn't any evidence. But I find it to be a challenge to see if it could have been possible. I do have a lot of experience with this nasty little magnets. Though someone did correctly bring up, you would need to test it. The real world can make you look pretty stupid.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:31 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
You got monopoles, I thought they had a vaccine for that.
Yeah, but I'm an antivacer as well. Don't want to get autismised by the NWO.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:35 AM   #97
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It's a no goer - the magnets would screw with the planes electronics - that's why there are regulations governing these things. Go back and read my post on page 2. DD your idea is a DD (dead duck)
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:37 AM   #98
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When I was younger and beginning to experiment with energetic reactions, I could count up to 12 on my fingers. Now I can only count up to 10.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:42 AM   #99
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Its not a dead duck.
(Bart Simpson pokes it in the eye with a stick, no reaction)
Ok, maybe its a dead duck.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:49 AM   #100
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I AM NOT DEAD!
Quit poking me in the eye, who knocked me out and glued this duck suit on me?
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:50 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
True there isn't any evidence. But I find it to be a challenge to see if it could have been possible. I do have a lot of experience with this nasty little magnets. Though someone did correctly bring up, you would need to test it. The real world can make you look pretty stupid.
No challenge at all.

It's impossible.

Done!
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Old 27th June 2011, 12:19 PM   #102
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I am more stupid and/or stubborn.

Which law of physics or chemistry etc says it is impossible?

I learned the hard way why it is a law and not just a suggestion.

You can package the magnets so that the fields mostly cancel out a short distance.

When you open the package they can literally explode out and reassemble into a lower energy configuration.

Not Impossible, probably a miserably frustrating process like building one of those giant domino cascades, and if you didn't care if devices were found afterwards it might be applicable for the military uses.

Meeting all the criteria for this problem, if they could do it in under a year and for less than 1/2 million dollars I would be surprised.

You would probably be better off taping a zippo lighter to the wing.

While I believe there may have been something (like evidence in the wreckage), I doubt if there had been anything other than fuel and maybe the titanium in the turbine blades that hastened the fall of the building.
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Old 27th June 2011, 02:20 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
The real world can make you look pretty stupid.
You seem to be doing well enough on your own.
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Old 27th June 2011, 04:40 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
Securacom and Shin Bet Google it

I have to retract the statement About Giuliani being a traitor.
It appears he was just stupid and greedy. By waving that money in his face he would have not even thought about why they needed to remove the debris that quickly.

I also have to retract the statement about Hiroshima and Nagasaki being for vengeance. It was militarily necessary and saved lives on both sides.

I learned the truth by not making up my mind and just following the evidence.
Knowing something is a 1000 times worse than suspecting it.
Sorry, it is up to you to post sources for your assertions...not my job to look up things you are claiming, you must back them yourself. So please post a source from a non-CT nonsense site for this Israeli - Stratesec connection.

And they didn't remove evidence quickly at all...again go visit Hangar 17 at JFK airport...stop repeating this long debunked meme that the steel/evidence was destroyed/recycled with haste.

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Old 27th June 2011, 04:48 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
If you have just a bunch of super magnets that can form a solid mass they would probably need to be moving several meters 30-40S for an impact to separate them.

Being in the whiffle structure you could have the poles covered by the whiffle structure so that they don't latch together so strongly.

I visualize it like one of the beards made from bees.

They chain well but don't bind side to side well.
I'm guessing you missed the SPOILER posted about the fact that the dang aircraft probably couldn't have taken off with all these "super" magnets in the cargo hold screwing up the instruments eh?
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Old 27th June 2011, 04:59 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
I am more stupid and/or stubborn.
Definitely

Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
While I believe there may have been something (like evidence in the wreckage), I doubt if there had been anything other than fuel and maybe the titanium in the turbine blades that hastened the fall of the building.
Turbine blades are not made from titanium. Turbine blades are made from nickel based super alloys which are far heavier than titanium alloys. Yes this maybe a nitpick, but the devil is in the detail which you are sadly lacking.

Your scenario is nothing but a bad script writer's hollywood fantasy. It would star Hulk Hogan, Hayden Christiansen, William Baldwin and go straight to DVD.
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Old 27th June 2011, 05:36 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
Which law of physics or chemistry etc says it is impossible?
That is, very specifically, the wrong question to ask. The right question to ask is: What would be the expected observations if this happened, and were those observations in fact made? If you can't come up with a reasonable answer to the first question and an affirmative answer to the second, then you're just spinning irrelevant fantasies. And you're also way behind the competition, given that both have been achieved very comprehensively for collapse induced by fire and impact damage.

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Old 27th June 2011, 11:52 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
The buildings survived the impacts. The fire is presumed to cause the collapse. By law the scene should have been left alone so that lessons could be learned about how the fire caused the building structure fail.
...TRAITORS
Where did you get you chem engineering degree from? Wow!

The fires were caused by jet aircraft impacts, no need to figure that out, it is on video and film. You must of missed it. Fire destroys the strength of steel. Why are you making up delusional claims?
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Old 28th June 2011, 07:12 AM   #109
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Has deathdart told us what "law" he is talking about?
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Old 28th June 2011, 07:56 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Has deathdart told us what "law" the **** he is talking about?
FTFY.

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Old 28th June 2011, 09:42 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
True there isn't any evidence. But I find it to be a challenge to see if it could have been possible. I do have a lot of experience with this nasty little magnets. Though someone did correctly bring up, you would need to test it. The real world can make you look pretty stupid.
You have experience with explosive magnets?



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Old 28th June 2011, 09:43 AM   #112
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I have experience with explosive diarrhea...
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Old 28th June 2011, 09:47 AM   #113
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Old 28th June 2011, 12:27 PM   #114
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Old 30th June 2011, 07:25 AM   #115
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Magnets, how do they ******* work?
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Old 30th June 2011, 07:38 AM   #116
WildCat
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Originally Posted by DeathDart View Post
The real world can make you look pretty stupid.
Reality certainly makes truthers look stupid.
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Old 30th June 2011, 01:57 PM   #117
George 152
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth View Post
You have experience with explosive magnets?



One way to get a bang out of your job.
An explosive that cleans up afterward and puts itself away
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