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Old 27th June 2011, 07:11 AM   #1
triforcharity
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Massive hotel fire caused by thermite and explosives, according to Truther logic

Here is an absolutely breathtaking hotel fire that eyewitnesses have reported hearing explosions.

Must have been thermite and explosives planted in the building.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/...news|text|Home
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:14 AM   #2
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This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
True. But neither do thermite, C4, remote controlled airliners, energy beams from space, insurance fraud, deliberate stand-down orders, 11G pull-up maneuvers, deliberate planting of evidence in excavations near Shanksville, people with the same names as some of the hi-jackers, or indeed most of the things 9/11 conspiracy theorists yammer on about. So it doesn't really seem all that out of place.

Dave
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
It has everything to do with 911.
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:28 AM   #5
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You can view a video here.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/28365909/detail.html

If you look, you can see metal railings melting! INSIDE JOBBITY JOB!!!
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:40 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
Actually Red, I will have to disagree.

Several of our resident truthers say that
1. explosions in a fire must be caused by explosives
2. any melted metal must be melted steel
3. all buildings can be compared even if they are different construction, different design and made from different materials.
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:43 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
Wow, you have a stunning lack of imagination.

Thirty seconds reading the article shows a reference to "black smoke," which truthers have taught us only arises in connection with an oxygen deprived fire. Must not be a lot of oxygen in Florida, huh Red!

Plus, maybe some joker will claim that the owner pulled the building in order to make a windfall like some sort of a bandit, huh Red?
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
Wrong.

He presents evidence for his often made claim that witnesses hear explosions during at least some building fires, even though no explosives were used to demolish that building. This claim, and its proof, help to refute the claim often made by 9/11 truthers that witnesses reporting explosions during the fires in the towers is evidence for explosives being used to demolish those buildings.

Truthers have, as far as I am concerned, have never presented evidence to back up their assertions that the explosions heard by witnesses are consistent with the explosives heard when buildings are really CDed.

All the evidence, taken together, and including the one presented by tri in the OP, make the theory "fires, not explosives, caused the towers to collapse" the most parsimoneous and thus best explanation we have to date.
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:47 AM   #9
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There is also mention of a collapse in some of the articles I have read.

Red, I am sorry that you don't get the connection.

Truthers claim Black smoke=oxygen starved fire. This article proves them wrong.
Truthers claim that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present. This article proves them wrong.
Truthers claim that explosions mean explosives, and this article (So far) proves them wrong.

You don't get it do you?
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:52 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
You can view a video here.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/28365909/detail.html

If you look, you can see metal railings melting! INSIDE JOBBITY JOB!!!
At least buckling. From fire alone, not even heavy loads involved.
Around the 1m31s mark:

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Old 27th June 2011, 07:58 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
True. But neither do thermite, C4, remote controlled airliners, energy beams from space, insurance fraud, deliberate stand-down orders, 11G pull-up maneuvers, deliberate planting of evidence in excavations near Shanksville, people with the same names as some of the hi-jackers, or indeed most of the things 9/11 conspiracy theorists yammer on about. So it doesn't really seem all that out of place.

Dave
Actually, any of those theories would be appropriate for the Conspiracy Theory subforum, regardless of veracity.

What Tri has posted is nothing but strawman building and Twoofie bashing. But I suppose in that way, it is appropriate for this subforum.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:01 AM   #12
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I can't believe you all missed the obvious evidence of the NWO planning this "fire" to "discredit" 9/11 Truth!


The very first guy they interview has a shirt with "Roc-A-Fella" on it. Do I need to draw you a map, sheeple?
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
What Tri has posted is nothing but strawman building and Twoofie bashing. But I suppose in that way, it is appropriate for this subforum.
How is that a strawman? Truthers claim fairly regularly that BLACK SMOKE = and oxygen starved fire? Do I need to show you some links?

Truthers claim that melted metal ONLY comes from thermite. Do I need to post some links for you?

Truthers claim regularly that explosions reported by eyewitnesses must have been from bombs/explosives. Do I need to post some links for you?
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:13 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Actually, any of those theories would be appropriate for the Conspiracy Theory subforum, regardless of veracity.

What Tri has posted is nothing but strawman building and Twoofie bashing. But I suppose in that way, it is appropriate for this subforum.
Citing and addressing actual arguments from truthers is NOT A GOD DAMN STRAW MAN.

I specifically mention the black smoke lie that your lying pal truthers came up with that is addressed in the link article, which you have inexplicably ignored.

Do you have anything to add Red, or are you just going to whine about nonsense?
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
which you have inexplicably ignored.
inexplicably meaning 'mysteriously' or 'strangely'

I submit that it's actually par for the course, and what would be inexplicabe would be him NOT ignoring it.....
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
inexplicably meaning 'mysteriously' or 'strangely'

I submit that it's actually par for the course, and what would be inexplicabe would be him NOT ignoring it.....
The inexplicable part was the fact that he posted a response after it was comprehensively explained to him that he is a ninny.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:45 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Actually, any of those theories would be appropriate for the Conspiracy Theory subforum, regardless of veracity.

What Tri has posted is nothing but strawman building and Twoofie bashing. But I suppose in that way, it is appropriate for this subforum.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
Yet it quickly got you so rattled that you are scrambling to handwave it away...

Gee...
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:51 AM   #19
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Yes Red, please explan to me how I am setting up arguments that the TM has never raised, so I can have something to attack? (Which is the definition of a strawman)

Please, explain how you came to that conclusion.
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
How is that a strawman? Truthers claim fairly regularly that BLACK SMOKE = and oxygen starved fire? Do I need to show you some links?

Truthers claim that melted metal ONLY comes from thermite. Do I need to post some links for you?

Truthers claim regularly that explosions reported by eyewitnesses must have been from bombs/explosives. Do I need to post some links for you?
And it was also reported that the FD focused their efforts on saving a nearby restaurant.......even though they most likely had plenty of water available to fight the motel fire. There must have been something in the motel that someone did not want to be found, and the FD was in on it.
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Old 27th June 2011, 09:12 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Actually, any of those theories would be appropriate for the Conspiracy Theory subforum, regardless of veracity.
So the theories themselves are appropriate, but a valid counter-example for a subset of them isn't? That would be rather a blatant statement of confirmation bias, don't you think?

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Old 27th June 2011, 09:13 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
It's another example of the truther parrot logic that ElMundoHummus commented on last week. Truthers see intelligent people pointing out strawman fallacies, so they think that pretending to see strawman fallacies is the same as being intelligent.

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Old 27th June 2011, 09:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Animal View Post
And it was also reported that the FD focused their efforts on saving a nearby restaurant.......even though they most likely had plenty of water available to fight the motel fire. There must have been something in the motel that someone did not want to be found, and the FD was in on it.
Black Angus. I ate there just the other week. Wonderful food, and excellent service. Good thing they saved it.
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Old 27th June 2011, 09:35 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Actually, any of those theories would be appropriate for the Conspiracy Theory subforum, regardless of veracity.

What Tri has posted is nothing but strawman building and Twoofie bashing. But I suppose in that way, it is appropriate for this subforum.
Wrong. It displays all the truther hallmarks.
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Old 27th June 2011, 09:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So the theories themselves are appropriate, but a valid counter-example for a subset of them isn't? That would be rather a blatant statement of confirmation bias, don't you think?

Dave
You'll have to dumb that down for truthers.
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Old 27th June 2011, 10:21 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
There is also mention of a collapse in some of the articles I have read.

Red, I am sorry that you don't get the connection.

Truthers claim Black smoke=oxygen starved fire. This article proves them wrong.
Truthers claim that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present. This article proves them wrong.
Truthers claim that explosions mean explosives, and this article (So far) proves them wrong.

You don't get it do you?
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.

Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.

If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".
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Old 27th June 2011, 10:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.

Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.

If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".
These are exactly what they claim. If you go back and read the posts they make, this time without preconceptions and trying to actually read what they say, you'll discover that is EXACTLY what they say.

But you won't, and you can't.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.

Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.

If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".
Try reading what they typed,just for a change.
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Old 27th June 2011, 11:42 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.

Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.

If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".
Holy crap, this is sheer nonsense.

You know Red, it is fine to make an error, but you have the stunningly annoying habit of compounding it by posting follow up nonsense like this post that takes it to the point of absurdity.

It is just like that claim that Siverstein made out like a bandit, a reasonable person would have supported it or withdrawn it. Not you of course, which is why my sig line must be so annoying to you.
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Old 27th June 2011, 12:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.
Sure do.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread214718/pg1

http://www.internationalskeptics.com.../t-145380.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/anal.../severity.html
"Dark smoke implies the presence of soot, which is composed of uncombusted hydrocarbons. Soot is produced when a fire is oxygen-starved, or has just been extinguished"


That took 10 seconds.

I am sure there are plenty more. Feel free to google for yourself.


Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

http://www.takeourworldback.com/smokinggun.htm


" The only thing that could cause this molten steel is Thermite,"
http://s15.zetaboards.com/Jref_alter...opic/649680/1/


Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.
http://www.infowars.com/video-911-fi...ers-collapsed/

" two firefighters on 9/11 discussing how secondary explosions occurred immediately before the collapse of the twin towers, providing damning new evidence that explosive devices were used to bring down the buildings"


Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".
I rest my case. And no, this is not a circle jerk. It is a "let's sit around and laugh at truthers like yourself who are ignorant of real life" kinda thing.

Welcome to the party.
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Old 27th June 2011, 01:47 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
Actually Red, I will have to disagree.

Several of our resident truthers say that
1. explosions in a fire must be caused by explosives
2. any melted metal must be melted steel
3. all buildings can be compared even if they are different construction, different design and made from different materials.
Something most of us have brought up at some point or another. WTC conspiracy theorists claim that the idea of 118 firefighters reporting explosions is somehow unprecedented or totally unusual in a very large fire. The building has nothing to do with the WTC, it does however have everything to do with the rationale that the conspiracy theorists use to claim that explosives should have been investigated.

Investigations into fires typically explore the causes of the fire and the factors that lead to their spread inside buildings. Explosives in this case were not the cause of the fires, as everyone knows; the cause was witnessed by millions of people. The explosions are easily attributed to the secondary effects of the fire. If red... no, any 9/11 "skeptic" disagrees with that then they need to do more than make sarcasm. Until then... the OP's parody of truth movement claims stands as perfectly on target.
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Old 27th June 2011, 03:38 PM   #32
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There is an updated video here. http://www.clickorlando.com/news/28365909/detail.html

Also, the entire wing of the hotel collapsed. I am working to get more photos of the aftermath.

There is a slideshow showing the aftermath of the fire.

Last edited by triforcharity; 27th June 2011 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 27th June 2011, 03:48 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Black Angus. I ate there just the other week. Wonderful food, and excellent service. Good thing they saved it.
Have to try it then!! Thanks for the tip. We had seen the pics on the local news (we are in Orlando) but didn't think about the potential as you did - well done!!!
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Old 27th June 2011, 03:54 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.

Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.

If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".
Actually, if they use any of those points in any argument that explosive/pyro materials must have been used, it doesn't allow that to any longer be called as a strawman. Once they emphasize the point and use it as part of their evidence, any disconfirmation is not straw, it is the tick-tick-ticking of reality headed toward them.
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Old 27th June 2011, 03:55 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.

This is the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories subforum, RedIbis. A recent fire that has features matching what truthers claim as evidence of the intentional and explosive demolition of the WTC towers is quite relevant.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 27th June 2011 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 27th June 2011, 04:22 PM   #36
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The floors appear to be of concrete, which is more heat-resistant than steel trusses, and they collapsed with fire on only two floors. Think about it.
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Old 27th June 2011, 04:36 PM   #37
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Did you see that fire-tornado in the video? Proof of vortex energy weapon? ahhhh...the plot thickens....
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Old 27th June 2011, 05:03 PM   #38
triforcharity
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
The floors appear to be of concrete, which is more heat-resistant than steel trusses, and they collapsed with fire on only two floors. Think about it.
No, I don't think the floors were made of concrete. I could be wrong though. I know that the outer columns were not. If it was concrete, I would assume that the outer walls and columns would be also.

But, I am not an architect either. I will look into it though. Have some friends with OFD.
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Old 27th June 2011, 05:19 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
No, I don't think the floors were made of concrete. I could be wrong though. I know that the outer columns were not. If it was concrete, I would assume that the outer walls and columns would be also.

But, I am not an architect either. I will look into it though. Have some friends with OFD.
Looks like light gauge steel framing.l The exterior columns are probably concrete but if they are the concrete itself is non-structural (steel framing inside). Agreed it'd be best to get an idea from someone who knows the area though to get a better idea.
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Old 27th June 2011, 05:37 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Looks like light gauge steel framing.l The exterior columns are probably concrete but if they are the concrete itself is non-structural (steel framing inside). Agreed it'd be best to get an idea from someone who knows the area though to get a better idea.
Which shows, I guess, that any kind of shielding makes a difference in how long any marerial will survive a fire.
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