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Old 27th June 2011, 05:43 PM   #41
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.
This is a common assertion by truthers - specifically, that black smoke proves that the fires were oxygen starved, which is equivalent to the claim that black smoke can only come form an oxygen starved fire. Once we accept that black smoke can come from a fire with plentiful oxygen, then black smoke is no longer proof of anything relevant.

Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.
This too is a common assertion by truthers - specifically, that normal building fires cannot achieve temperatures hot enough to melt steel, and that only thermite can achieve such temperatures. Once we accept that building fires can achieve temperatures hot enough to melt steel, then melted steel is no longer proof of anything relevant.

Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.
And this, too, is a common assertion by truthers - specifically, that the observation of explosions is proof that explosives were present in the buildings. Once we accept that explosions are commonplace events in building fires, then explosions are no longer proof of anything relevant.

So if you want to argue that black smoke, melted steel and explosions are all common observations in normal building fires, but could also occur if the buildings were demolished using explosives, then nobody will seriously contest that claim, for the simple reason that it does nothing to disprove the generally accepted narrative.

Dave
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Old 27th June 2011, 06:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Sure, go right ahead. But when you do make sure the claim is that black smoke is only from an oxygen starved fire.

Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.

Make sure that the claim is that all explosions mean explosives.

If not, you are building strawmen. That is, creating a non-existent argument purely for the purpose of a circle "auto-stimulation".


We'll admit we're building strawmen if you admit that recognizing that there are other possible causes for each of those elements pretty much wipes out 90% of the supposed "evidence" that has been claimed proves that the WTC buildings were destroyed by some sort of controlled demolition.

So, which is it Red? Are you willing to toss out all the major Truther talking points just to score a point against us?
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Old 28th June 2011, 01:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
We'll admit we're building strawmen if you admit that recognizing that there are other possible causes for each of those elements pretty much wipes out 90% of the supposed "evidence" that has been claimed proves that the WTC buildings were destroyed by some sort of controlled demolition.

So, which is it Red? Are you willing to toss out all the major Truther talking points just to score a point against us?
Watch RedIbis squirming to have it both ways in 10 ... 9 ... 8 ...
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Old 28th June 2011, 05:01 AM   #44
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I look forward to seeing how he tries to extricate himself from this one.
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Old 28th June 2011, 05:06 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
I look forward to seeing how he tries to extricate himself from this one.
He'll ignore it and wait till this thread is on page two - where he thinks nobody will remember it.
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Old 28th June 2011, 05:13 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
He'll ignore it and wait till this thread is on page two - where he thinks nobody will remember it.
Or he'll wait till page seven, after which he'll repeatedly claim he explained his position fully in post #83, even though all anyone will see who follows his repeated links to post #83 is an unsupported assertion about a completely different subject.

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Old 28th June 2011, 05:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Make sure that the clam is that molten/melted metal can only occur if thermite is present.
I suggest you go and read Christopher7 posts.
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Old 28th June 2011, 06:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
I look forward to seeing how he tries to extricate himself from this one.
Like he always does, he'll disappear for a bit only to show up later spouting the same nonsense as if nothing happened.
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Old 28th June 2011, 07:16 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Like he always does, he'll disappear for a bit only to show up later spouting the same nonsense as if nothing happened.
He must think that we are as dumb as a sackful of truthers.
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Old 28th June 2011, 07:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
Remember..."this stuff could be everywhere".
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Old 28th June 2011, 09:43 AM   #51
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You guys are really starting to bore me. And I'm convinced, it's you, and not the Twoofies, who live in their mothers' basements, have no jobs, no girlfriends to speak of.

It's been less than 24 hrs. Get a grip.

PS. This thread still has nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing.
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Old 28th June 2011, 09:52 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
You guys are really starting to bore me. And I'm convinced, it's you, and not the Twoofies, who live in their mothers' basements, have no jobs, no girlfriends to speak of.

It's been less than 24 hrs. Get a grip.

PS. This thread still has nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing.
I'm impressed. Although the "none of you guys have a life but for some reason that doesn't apply to me" ploy isn't exactly original, it isn't one of your usual ways of running away from the issue.

But I'll take note that the questions of whether black smoke shows that a fire was oxygen starved, normal building fires can soften steel, or explosions demonstrate the presence of explosives, all have nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing.

I may remind you of that declaration some time, if it's OK with you.

Dave
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:12 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
You guys are really starting to bore me. And I'm convinced, it's you, and not the Twoofies, who live in their mothers' basements, have no jobs, no girlfriends to speak of.

It's been less than 24 hrs. Get a grip.

PS. This thread still has nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing.
Report me then. I am sure that the mods will ignore it.

Would you care to address my post earlier in the thread?

I have a full time job, a wife, and play golf on occasion. This is fairly local for me (I pass by it every couple weeks on my way to Disney or one of the other parks in the area) and it intrigued me. Not only as a debunker, but as a firefighter too.

Now, would you care to actually address the argument, instead of running away from it and attacking the posters here?
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:17 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
But I'll take note that the questions of whether black smoke shows that a fire was oxygen starved, normal building fires can soften steel, or explosions demonstrate the presence of explosives, all have nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing.

I may remind you of that declaration some time, if it's OK with you.

Dave
Uh, what steel? The building was a prefabricated wooden structure, possibly built for the World Fair in Knoxville and trucked to Florida. Proving, of course, that there is no relevance whatsoever to any building on 9/11.

Quote:
The six-alarm fire started in a room, spread to the attic and then throughout the wooden structure. It burned most of Monday
http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news...a-County-hotel
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:21 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Report me then. I am sure that the mods will ignore it.

Would you care to address my post earlier in the thread?

I have a full time job, a wife, and play golf on occasion. This is fairly local for me (I pass by it every couple weeks on my way to Disney or one of the other parks in the area) and it intrigued me. Not only as a debunker, but as a firefighter too.

Now, would you care to actually address the argument, instead of running away from it and attacking the posters here?
You didn't post in the barrage of obnoxiousness, taunting and poisoning the well. You probably realize that some people have busy lives and can't always spend the better part of their day in pissing matches.

But as far as your "argument", check my post above. This building was absolutely nothing like any building destroyed on 9/11.
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:25 AM   #56
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Well, I admit, I thought he would take a different approach instead of flat out ignoring what he posted.
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:31 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
The effort to clarify this at least is appreciated. Yes if it's a wooden structure then we don't expect it to be anything like the WTC.

While there was curiosity on the actual construction, it was not the main point of the thread which was about the idea that reports of explosions always = bombs and parodying what the truth movements defines as its benchmark evidence of controlled demolitions. That doesn't require answering to a barrage of flooding questions to actually address, nor should it take the entire day...

When you attacked the argument in the OP you went after something entirely irrelevant to the actual point that was being made. If you don't want to answer to a million obnoxious posts that's one thing, butyou jumped into the thread on the wrong topic altogether
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:42 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
The effort to clarify this at least is appreciated. Yes if it's a wooden structure then we don't expect it to be anything like the WTC.

While there was curiosity on the actual construction, it was not the main point of the thread which was about the idea that reports of explosions always = bombs and parodying what the truth movements defines as its benchmark evidence of controlled demolitions. That doesn't require answering to a barrage of flooding questions to actually address, nor should it take the entire day...

When you attacked the argument in the OP you went after something entirely irrelevant to the actual point that was being made. If you don't want to answer to a million obnoxious posts that's one thing, butyou jumped into the thread on the wrong topic altogether
Thanks for the civil tone, as usual. If you admit that this hotel was constructed nothing like any at the WTC, what's the point of the comparison? Obviously, Tri's point was to, as you say, "parody" Truther thinking. I guess that's the problem with these threads. Mockery has replaced any constructive discussion. I don't doubt Tri can find instances where people say stupid stuff on the internet. That's no revelation. But threads that do nothing but conflate all questioning of 9/11 into "Truther Logic" is dumb beyond belief. It's merely an attempt at diminishing and conflating all skepticism toward official explanations. Pointless, at best.
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Uh, what steel? The building was a prefabricated wooden structure, possibly built for the World Fair in Knoxville and trucked to Florida. Proving, of course, that there is no relevance whatsoever to any building on 9/11.
Selective vision if I ever saw it.....
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
If you admit that this hotel was constructed nothing like any at the WTC, what's the point of the comparison?
Well, this hotel seems like it was demolished with explosives in a similar manner to the WTC. Witnesses heard explosions, how is that not relevant? We're just carrying out your logic here.


Any comment on your hurling of truther logic under the bus? Or are you going to continue to ignore that post?
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Old 28th June 2011, 10:52 AM   #61
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Quote:
what's the point of the comparison?
Twoofers always say steel can't be damaged by fire.

In this fire it was.

Twoofers always say that black smoke means oxygen starved.

In this fire, black smoke was present along with some pretty healthy fire. Not Oxygen Starved.

Twoofers always say that explosions=explosives.

In this fire there were explosions with no explosives

You're not really this thick, are you?
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:07 AM   #62
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Hes being purposefully obtuse. I don't know why you guys haven't had him on ignore for the last 4 years. He's been on my ignore list, and I do not MISS a single one of his asinine posts.
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Uh, what steel? The building was a prefabricated wooden structure, possibly built for the World Fair in Knoxville and trucked to Florida.
We were talking about the railings. And where do you get the World Fair in Knoxville?

Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Proving, of course, that there is no relevance whatsoever to any building on 9/11.
Report me. See what happens. (I'll give you a hint. The mods will disagree, and the thread will stay right where it is.)
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:24 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
You didn't post in the barrage of obnoxiousness, taunting and poisoning the well. You probably realize that some people have busy lives and can't always spend the better part of their day in pissing matches.

But as far as your "argument", check my post above. This building was absolutely nothing like any building destroyed on 9/11.
But yet, it experienced black smoke, which truthers claim to be oxygen starved fires that are burning cool, or are going out.

And truthers also claim that explosions come from explosives. Which, of course, we know that fires experience explosions, without the presence of explosives.

The BUILDING has nothing to do with the FIRE in this regards. The buildings CONSTRUCTION does not even come into play.
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Old 28th June 2011, 12:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Thanks for the civil tone, as usual. If you admit that this hotel was constructed nothing like any at the WTC, what's the point of the comparison? Obviously, Tri's point was to, as you say, "parody" Truther thinking. I guess that's the problem with these threads. Mockery has replaced any constructive discussion. I don't doubt Tri can find instances where people say stupid stuff on the internet. That's no revelation. But threads that do nothing but conflate all questioning of 9/11 into "Truther Logic" is dumb beyond belief. It's merely an attempt at diminishing and conflating all skepticism toward official explanations. Pointless, at best.
I think what you're looking for here is the tone... I don't do well with sarcasm or being pushy so I don't often bother personally... the content itself however does deal with a question I've asked multiple times and would be interested having some elaboration on. This isn't just from you, I've asked numerous others frankly without much input on the matter. For example, nobody disputes that people reported explosions at the WTC partly because of examples like the OP's article, and many others. However demolition proponents suggest that explosives should have been investigated as the most likely culprits without explaining why all of the things we expect to cause the same phenomenon are the least likely. If anyone has already, I honestly haven't seen it...
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Old 28th June 2011, 12:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
It's been less than 24 hrs. Get a grip.
It's been years since you first claimed that Larry Silverstein "made out like a bandit". An accusation you still haven't bothered to support with evidence.
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Old 28th June 2011, 12:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It's been years since you first claimed that Larry Silverstein "made out like a bandit". An accusation you still haven't bothered to support with evidence.
Whoever heard of a truther with evidence?
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Old 28th June 2011, 03:01 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
I think what you're looking for here is the tone... I don't do well with sarcasm or being pushy so I don't often bother personally... the content itself however does deal with a question I've asked multiple times and would be interested having some elaboration on. This isn't just from you, I've asked numerous others frankly without much input on the matter. For example, nobody disputes that people reported explosions at the WTC partly because of examples like the OP's article, and many others. However demolition proponents suggest that explosives should have been investigated as the most likely culprits without explaining why all of the things we expect to cause the same phenomenon are the least likely. If anyone has already, I honestly haven't seen it...
Without derailing the topic and going over worn out ground, I would say that it's the other characteristics of use of explosives that have caused some witnesses to differentiate between what might be considered spontaneous explosions due to fuel and other components, and those that would be consistent with CD.
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Old 28th June 2011, 05:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I can't believe you all missed the obvious evidence of the NWO planning this "fire" to "discredit" 9/11 Truth!


The very first guy they interview has a shirt with "Roc-A-Fella" on it. Do I need to draw you a map, sheeple?
Clearly members of the Skull and Bones society. Soon to be seen performing at the NWAO annual picnic over at the Bohemian Grove this August...

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Old 28th June 2011, 05:27 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Without derailing the topic and going over worn out ground, I would say that it's the other characteristics of use of explosives that have caused some witnesses to differentiate between what might be considered spontaneous explosions due to fuel and other components, and those that would be consistent with CD.
Such as...repeated massive BOOMs! audible for miles around?

Or...maybe brilliant repeated flashes of light?

Or...components such as detcord, wiring, radio recievers?

What?
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Old 28th June 2011, 06:11 PM   #71
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He's likely referring to the people who likened it to a controlled demolition, which runs into the same problem as the first; people make similar comparisons all the time. There's no reason to dispute whether they said something to the effect, but like reports of explosions witnesses likening it to other things happens just as often.

Like I said earlier that's what the OP was about; if you follow that line of logic you're missing to obvious points that go against the CD argument unless you can explain how one set of features over another is more likely. This deals with witness testimony, something that is far from imperial unless you can discern the differences between simile, metaphor, and how people interpret what they see or hear.
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:06 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
This deals with witness testimony, something that is far from imperial unless you can discern the differences between simile, metaphor, and how people interpret what they see or hear.
I always think of this when I hear people say that the tornado bearing down on them sounded "like a freight train", from which we can only assume that there are numerous rogue freight trains which jump their tracks and demolish whole neighborhoods while yet giving them the appearance of having been blown down.

It's natural to compare something unusual (like a tornado or a building collapsing) to something you have actually heard in the past (a train, or explosions, which you've at least heard on tv).
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Old 28th June 2011, 11:19 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This has nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.
Absolutely wrong. One of the main issues that many of the so-called debunkers have had with advocates for a 9/11 Truth is the seeming uniqueness of the possible scenarios outlined by scientific experts in the movement. triforcharity's OP points out that the official attacks on the WTC may not be as unique as our self-proclaimed debunker's like to imply. He raises the possibility that these kinds of thermite attacks might, in fact, be going on all around us.

This of course raises issues about why these other thermite demolitions are not being reported as such by the 'mainstream' media. When even the firefighters in attendance are pointing out how something totally new is happening here
Quote:
"This fire's got a mind of its own," a fire official said.
you've got to start connecting the dots on your own to those other so-called 'Acts of God' that even the experts tell you are one-of-a-kind. And this all raises some pretty dark questions about who's doing this? And where are they getting access to all this military-grade thermate?

When I registered as a member of this forum, I had pretty much made up my mind that the official conspiracy theory had to be true. It's posts like this one that are helping me open my eyes to what's really going on and move beyond the sheeple.
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Old 29th June 2011, 01:27 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Without derailing the topic and going over worn out ground, I would say that it's the other characteristics of use of explosives that have caused some witnesses to differentiate between whatmight be considered spontaneous explosions due to fuel and other components, and those that would be consistent with CD.
You "would" say? Do you say it or don't you?
"Other" characteristics? I take it you won't ever tell us which?
"Some" witnesses were caused to differentiate by these other characteristics? Who? Got names? And evidence?
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Old 29th June 2011, 01:30 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
Hes being purposefully obtuse. I don't know why you guys haven't had him on ignore for the last 4 years. He's been on my ignore list, and I do not MISS a single one of his asinine posts.
I do have him on ignore, but since there isn't much going on in this subforum today that isn't bordering on asinine, I even look ar RI's posts. They are so easy to shoot down between breakfast and starting the dish washer.
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Old 29th June 2011, 01:39 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Without derailing the topic and going over worn out ground, I would say that it's the other characteristics of use of explosives that have caused some witnesses to differentiate between what might be considered spontaneous explosions due to fuel and other components, and those that would be consistent with CD.
Translation: I have a good argument, but I'm not going to tell you what it is.

What "other characteristics of the use of explosives" are we talking about here? Is it the absence of jolts in the acceleration curve, despite the fact that nobody has ever observed any such jolts in the acceleration curve of a building that was demolished using explosives? Is it the fact that a part of WTC7's collapse was at near-freefall acceleration, despite the fact that nobody has ever observed that in an explosive demolition either? Or is this simply a statement of belief, that there simply must be some other characteristics of explosives that the collapses exhibited, and it's only a matter of time before somebody figures out what they are?

Specifics, please, or you're just blowing smoke as usual.

Dave
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Old 29th June 2011, 02:02 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Is it the fact that a part of WTC7's collapse was at near-freefall acceleration, despite the fact that nobody has ever observed that in an explosive demolition either?
Might be an idea to highlight the over-g period for WTC7, and also have a look at the The Demolition of 1515 Flagler Dr...




A quick look at derived acceleration suggests very near to freefall, if indeed it is not actually reached...


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Old 29th June 2011, 03:07 AM   #78
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OK. Now, two questions:

femr2, would you describe this acceleration, at an advanced stage of the collapse well after the demolition was initiated by explosives, as a characteristic of the use of explosives? I'd argue that events this far into collapse progression are relatively insensitive to the means of collapse initiation. It may be instructive to see if there are any similar features, for example, in the acceleration curves of verinage demolitions, (although I suspect conservation of momentum will reduce the acceleration well below 1G).

RedIbis, is this actually anything to do with what you were talking about?

Dave
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Old 29th June 2011, 03:23 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
OK. Now, two questions
Okay...

Quote:
femr2, would you describe this acceleration, at an advanced stage of the collapse well after the demolition was initiated by explosives
Explosives were still going off at various (other) parts of the building around that time, but...

Quote:
as a characteristic of the use of explosives?
I'd need to look at a decent number of similar demolitions. (And for the other side of the coin...a decent number of non-explosive collapses. Buildings with WTC in the name are not allowed on either list of course)

Given the building was stationary moments before, it's obviously related, sure

Quote:
I'd argue that events this far into collapse progression are relatively insensitive to the means of collapse initiation.
Perhaps, perhaps not, though I get the impression you've not actually watched the 1515 Flagler descent (or the sequence of the explosions)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUSyWs9z9N8

Quote:
It may be instructive to see if there are any similar features, for example, in the acceleration curves of verinage demolitions
Verinage is very different, resulting in very different velocity and acceleration profiles.

Quote:
(although I suspect conservation of momentum will reduce the acceleration well below 1G)
Yup. Not sure why you are mentioning verinage.

Quote:
RedIbis, is this actually anything to do with what you were talking about?

Dave
My highlight is due to your assertion as I quoted.

I'm sure other demolitions of a similar type could reach near-g accel. There has not been an awful lot of study, and certainly not using some of the techniques developed during the process of looking at WTC1/7.

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Old 29th June 2011, 04:13 AM   #80
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Given the building was stationary moments before, it's obviously related, sure
Related, certainly. What I'm trying to get at here is, what are the characteristics of explosive use that RedIbis claims to have been observed in the WTC collapses, and are therefore indicative of explosives having initiated those collapses.

Originally Posted by femr2 View Post
Not sure why you are mentioning verinage.
Because any feature observed in both explosive and verinage implosions could not reasonably be described as a characteristic of the use of explosives, in the context in which I think RedIbis meant it. He's trying to claim, as far as I can see, that the truth movement is not making the claim that explosions in the WTC are indicative of explosives being used to initiate the collapse, but rather that some other characteristics are indicative of explosives. I'd like to know what he thinks he means.

Dave
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