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5th July 2011, 09:29 AM | #41 | |||
Wicked Lovely
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There's only one rock group I'm aware of that actually endorses several conspiracy theories, including 9/11 truth: hed p.e.
I hear their music regularly on the Octane channel on Sirius XM, but hadn't really heard they endorsed conspiracies until one of the DJ's mentioned it one morning as apparently being on their website. I was immediately disgusted, but since I don't own any of their albums and in fact only have one song of theirs on my iPod (Bartender), I figured it wasn't any skin off of my nose. I have to admit I'm surprised they weren't mentioned in that list in Orphia's OP though. Here's the band's lead singer talking about that sort of thing:
Their latest album is going to be called Truth Rising, and features such gems as "The Capitalist Conspiracy", "Takeover", "Stand Up" (which, incidentally features a cameo by a member of a band I actually LIKE, Sevendust; I hope this doesn't mean he's on the bandwagon), "Murder", and "No More Secrets". I've never been one to blame the music kids listen to for the violence some of them perpetrate, but I have to wonder exactly what message these guys are trying to convey with song titles like that; one hopes it's not the way it looks on the surface; i.e. advocating a government takeover and potentially murdering the people they think are "in on it", but without seeing the lyrics I couldn't say. |
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5th July 2011, 01:18 PM | #42 |
No Ordinary Rabbit
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George Carlin?!?!?
I'm sorry...I can't imagine him being lumped into this group of morons. He was way too smart for 9/11 nonsense. Say it ain't so! |
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5th July 2011, 01:41 PM | #43 | |||
Illuminator
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It ain't.
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The Angry Atheist Podcast #112 with Walter Ego |
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5th July 2011, 01:49 PM | #44 |
Graduate Poster
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Walter I'm sorry but that video doesn't do much to make me think he's opposed to 9/11 truth. Honestly he seems to be a bit in favor of it. And believe me it hurts me like you don't know to think that George would be a truther. But he never trusted a word the government said.
I think 9/11 truth never really made it to his radar and if he spent 5 minutes looking into it he'd see how ridiculous they all are. But he's gone now and either we'll never know or something more conclusive will turn up. Also I see my man Joe Rogan made the list. He's a brilliant comedian, I even got to see him live 2 weeks ago and he was keel-over funny. And incredibly smart. BUT very prone to woo. He's been on Alex Jones show. He's to blame for me questioning the pyramids. Funny, funny, funny guy but he has a bit of that woo weakness. |
5th July 2011, 03:28 PM | #45 |
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5th July 2011, 04:35 PM | #46 |
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Is it just me or is this list of celebrities really just a list of people who said bad things about W Bush?
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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5th July 2011, 05:24 PM | #47 | |||
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5th July 2011, 05:47 PM | #48 |
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http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...2b728514ea.gif "The evidence that the attacks of 9/11 were an inside job just keeps not coming in." --pomeroo |
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5th July 2011, 09:00 PM | #49 |
Muse
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6th July 2011, 05:06 AM | #50 |
Wicked Lovely
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Besides, I don't see the Dixie Chicks on there.
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6th July 2011, 05:06 AM | #51 |
Just One More Question
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I haven't watched the video, but I doubt Senator Franken is a "twoofer." He was certainly, and still is, critical of the Bush Administration, but I never heard him say anything about believing that they were somehow involved in 9/11.
If someone points to a link I will be glad to look it over, as long as it isn't a video. In the meantime, as one of his constituents, I will send him a letter asking for him to comment. |
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I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling |
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6th July 2011, 05:22 AM | #52 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Already answered, I think, still:
They are not disqualified, but they are not qualified, either. On a topic like 911, actors are simply ordinary people. So imagine that this was instead about the opinion of a similar number of selected Wall-mart shoppers. - Not very impressive, right? Hans |
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6th July 2011, 06:19 AM | #53 |
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The whole point of producing a list of actors who support 9/11 conspiracy theories is that these are people whose opinions are listened to by ordinary people, and therefor considered notable. In effect, it's an appeal to authority. Actors, however, have absolutely no relevant knowledge or experience specific to determining whether the 9/11 conspiracy theories are true by virtue of their being actors. Their opinions, therefore, while not automatically worthless, are not automatically of any value; they can be ignored with no more concern than, as Hans suggests, those of a group of people polled in a retail outlet.
When someone with relevant expertise makes a statement on 9/11, then a second level of disproof is required. Richard Gage, for example, has at least some familiarity with issues related to building construction, and therefore his opinions warrant critical examination (even though few, if any, originate from his own mind). And, as it turns out, all his opinions on 9/11 are based on fatally flawed analysis, so they can be discarded as worthless after examination. A group of actors who happen to agree with him, however, don't warrant any such examination, particularly as everything they claim has already been shown to be as worthless as Gage's second-hand lies. Dave |
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6th July 2011, 06:26 AM | #54 |
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On the one hand, I agree with the notion that it's less who says something than it is what they say. If a claim has been falsified, it doesn't matter who puts it forth, it's a falsified claim that fails on its own merits.
That said, I'll admit that quite a few of us here get tired with the seemingly perpetual truther trumpeting of "So-and-so-for-9/11-Truth"; it all too often gets presented as being another point of vindication for their beliefs when it's nothing more than a demonstration of how they're trying to be popular over being correct (as an aside, this is precisely why I say the movement is not about discovering truth or knowledge generation, but merely about proselytizing to others. It's a belief-conversion movement nowadays). It's further aggravating because knowlege may indeed be generated and validated by group effort, but that doesn't mean that reality is determined by group vote. Yet it seems like truthers act as if getting sufficient numbers is all that's necessary for ultimate vindication. At any rate, what's the importance of actor and celebrity statements on 9/11? The same as any other citizen. Which acts as a rejection of the Truther attempts to attach greater significance to them. |
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6th July 2011, 07:07 AM | #55 |
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This whole celeberty thing is annoying. I found a regular step-function error in the 84RADES time stamp. I wanted to understand it better. I did not seek out an actor in that quest. No, I sought out multiple individuals who know radar and data systems for help.
If I need help with acting, I'll ask an actor. Likewise, if I need help with some tech aspect of 9/11, I'll ask someone who has devoted their lives to studying that aspect, not an actor. |
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6th July 2011, 08:38 AM | #56 |
Just One More Question
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In the early 70's a reporter asked Elvis Presley's opinion of the Vietnam protests. He said something to the effect (and there is film of this if someone has the time to find it) that he is a singer and his opinion shouldn't matter more than anyone elses.
That's why he was the "King." |
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I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling |
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6th July 2011, 09:26 AM | #57 |
The Clarity Is Devastating
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Wow, that's brilliant parody! I thought the Truth Movement was, overall, self-selectively comprised of the least creative individuals on the planet. But this... this changes everything! For example, note the innovative use of negatives to cleverly subvert the meaning of the original...
Quote:
...to reveal the ironically opposite meaning that was implicit the whole time (since it's well known that all statements inevitably suggest their own negation; that is to say, it isn't and they don't.):
Quote:
Weird Al Yancovic must be kicking himself that for all his parodic accomplishments, he overlooked that simple and devastating technique. The only fly in this ointment is... I doubt that the actual Bee Gee's can be credited for this new version. While I acknowledge that inspiration can strike anywhere, it is statistically unlikely for the Bee Gee's to have suddenly and uncharacteristically revealed genius of that magnitude. So, in keeping with the thread topic, I must inquire: which Hollywood celebrity was the true mastermind of the piece? I only ask because I would wish to caution that individual to be careful in the future application of his or her remarkable gift, even for the most laudable of causes. It is not clear that civilization itself could survive the magnitude of upheaval that must result from self-examination that profound. To offer one frightening example, from the tip of the truly terrifying iceberg: Jingle bells, jingle bells, Jingle not all the way, Oh what fun it isn't to ride In a zero-or-two-or-more-horse open sleigh... Please, in the name of all that is holy, use that power wisely! Respectfully, Myriad |
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"*Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote |
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6th July 2011, 09:33 AM | #58 |
"más divertido"
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6th July 2011, 03:46 PM | #59 | |||
Pedantic Bore
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Is this the clip you're referring to?
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Do not weep. Do not wax indignant. Understand. - Baruch Spinoza You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. - Harlan Ellison |
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6th July 2011, 03:52 PM | #60 |
Just One More Question
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I've been involved in a lot of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower, but you make more money as a leader.--Creed, "The Office" The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices to be only found in the minds of men. Prejudices and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own.--Rod Serling |
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6th July 2011, 04:23 PM | #61 |
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Haha, nice rant, Myriad. Of course you were aware that your own crowd, the "debunking movement", is the least creative bunch ever. That guy Chris Mohr now managed for the first time to put your position into an adult and half-way respectable form without resorting to 4chan retardation with LOLcatz and buckets full of Gravy (good work, Chris). And even that is far from creative, although it does its job, it's just less neurotic. In 2011. No surprise you're a little pissed at that. |
6th July 2011, 04:43 PM | #62 |
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Its very hard to be civil to people who show you no civility, CE.
Truthers simply do not deserve politeness shown to them by Chris Mohr. They simply do not deserve it. |
6th July 2011, 04:55 PM | #63 |
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6th July 2011, 05:02 PM | #64 |
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CE - the fact of the matter is that truthers implicate the FDNY in 9/11.
Therefore they deserve no politeness. My opinion. Chris is way more patient than I. |
6th July 2011, 07:31 PM | #65 |
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6th July 2011, 07:54 PM | #66 |
Illuminator
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Of a handful of similar responses to an earlier remark of mine, this one will do to further the particular discussion:
Your bolding, but very much my point. 'Being an actor' adds nothing - but 'being an actor' doesn't preclude adding something. I can't, off the top of my head, think of an actor with a PhD in anything (unless you count my brother, but he hasn't trod the boards for years and you wouldn't know him from Adam), but that hairy guitarist out of Queen is a knowledgeable astrophysicist. Unless they nodded through his doctorate because they liked Seven Seas of Rye? Surely not... I know only too well how partisan discussions in this subforum can become, but I was never saying that any of those actors had anything of value to contribute to the matter at hand. Far from it. I was, however, taking issue with dismissal of the opinions of actors, of out hand, as though they knew nothing beyond mindlessly repeating lines written for them and remembering not to look at the camera. Acting is rarely, in and of itself, intellectually taxing, but it isn't solely undertaken by idiots either. |
6th July 2011, 08:14 PM | #67 |
Illuminator
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I think that the issue being taken isn't so much about whether or not they are capable of having an opinion (although for a few of them their thought processes are obviously flawed) but that they (or others) are using their fame earned in a completely unrelated field (acting) as a bully pulpit for something that at best their opinion is worth no more than any average Joe off of the street.
I hold the same opinion for actors and politics. If you are qualified to hold the office then run for it and use your fame that way. Actually stand there and field questions (and not just the softball ones from people who you know already agree with you). Otherwise your opinion is no different than mine. |
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"Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar. |
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6th July 2011, 09:21 PM | #68 |
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Then, if any of them chooses to add something by offering a clear, evidence-based line of argument, rather than rehashing the same old lies, they'll be worth listening to. However, at the moment, the argument on offer is "Here's a bunch of famous people who believe something, therefore you should believe it too." That line of argument is worthless without support from evidence.
And, in fact, in attracting attention to themselves by repeating 9/11 conspiracy theories that they clearly don't understand, these particular actors are conforming very nicely to the stereotype of "mindlessly repeating lines written for them and remembering not to look at the camera". If they want to be taken seriously, as intelligent people with noteworthy opinions, they're not doing themselves any favours. Dave |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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7th July 2011, 04:29 AM | #69 |
Illuminator
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A person's name on the list of personalities in the video linked in the OP does not mean they are advocating 9/11 truth in the video.
Franken has been confronted several times by Minnesota truthers and each time he has stated unequivocally he doesn't believe in 9/11 conspiracy's. Franken: "I am not a 9/11 conspiracist." Franken: "I don't think it was an inside job." |
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The Angry Atheist Podcast #112 with Walter Ego |
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7th July 2011, 10:25 AM | #70 |
Illuminator
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I'm willing to bet that Franken said something about the state of affairs within our intelligence agencies before 9/11 and/or about people playing CYA after 9/11 (something pretty much everyone agrees with to some degree) and cherry picked the hell out of it to try and make it sound like he was a truther. The guy had a radio show to fill every day for years and he didn't like Bush at all so there's bound to be plenty of sound bites to cherry pick from.
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"Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar. |
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7th July 2011, 12:51 PM | #71 |
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All it takes for a truther to claim that you agree with them to to express doubts about any part of the 9/11 narrative. If you say that you don't think the Bush Admin was totally upfront about the pre-911 intelligence (meaning not LIHOP but laxness or error on handling the intel) then like magic, POOF, you're a truther even if you think the truther version of events is idiotic...
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7th July 2011, 03:52 PM | #72 |
Illuminator
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The flip side of that is that if you don't think 9/11 was an inside job truthers automatically assume you must have supported Bush and the Iraq war or you're a neo-con shill or a "media-controlled worm" (that last one was actually leveled at me by a demented truther chick) no matter what your actual political views.
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The Angry Atheist Podcast #112 with Walter Ego |
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7th July 2011, 07:59 PM | #73 |
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7th July 2011, 08:01 PM | #74 |
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7th July 2011, 09:58 PM | #75 |
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8th July 2011, 01:15 AM | #76 |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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8th July 2011, 11:17 AM | #77 |
Illuminator
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Whose point, whose post? Is this a 'last word' showdown?
You can reasonably respond to one of several points. In fact, you responded to none, opting to lecture me in something it was clear I understood and conceded. I'd even made the point that that was likely - this is an ultra-orthodox forum and I knew that saying 'actors can be intelligent and knowledgeable in specialist fields' ran the risk of being read as 'well these actors might be on to something'. I suppose you might have been simply agreeing with me, and it just came across as a lecture. Either way... Last word. |
8th July 2011, 04:36 PM | #78 |
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I think you'd be surprised, actually. Having said that, the actors on this list are not A-listers, they're at best second or third tier, most of them not even that. In my experience most actors are very intelligent. But they're also incredibly ignorant. I wouldn't trust most actors with an opinion on filmmaking, let alone a topic outside their field of work. |
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8th July 2011, 04:43 PM | #79 |
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This point (highlighted)
Quote:
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911 resource site by Mark Roberts http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance. Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane? Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude. |
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11th July 2011, 01:56 PM | #80 |
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