[Merged] Bitcoin - Part 3 - Page 19

Belz... · 16th July 2020, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

It is good at it, for a certain subset of goods and services.

Feels like you're moving the goalposts. It's adequate at it for a small subset of goods and services. Few people accept BTC.

Quote:

That's why there are billions in sales.

That is a very small number.

lomiller · 16th July 2020, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

A large factor in the price of bitcoin is "hodling". People buy them and hang onto them.

If Bitcoin, once purchased, could never be transferred or sold who would buy them and how much would they be willing to pay?

My guess is that if not for the hope of making money reselling them, no one would buy them at all. Selling them, not holding them is clearly the appeal. Of course if it were a viable currency spending them would be the appeal, but that it pretty much off the table at this point.

lomiller · 16th July 2020, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

According to some guy named Madoff, fiat money is so awesome that no one ever gets scammed.

Had Madoff run his scams entirely in bitcoin it would have been all but impossible to seize any of the assets or recovered any of the money after he was convicted. Newer crypto-currencies do an even better job of this now so even the criminals are moving on from bitcoin.

The_Animus · 16th July 2020, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Feels like you're moving the goalposts. It's adequate at it for a small subset of goods and services. Few people accept BTC.

I haven't moved anything. You said it's only good for speculation, I said it's good for buying certain things to the tune of billions a year, which it is.

That is a very small number.[/quote]

It may be considerably less than the amount of fiat currency spent but billions is not a small number.

Belz... · 16th July 2020, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

I haven't moved anything. You said it's only good for speculation, I said it's good for buying certain things to the tune of billions a year, which it is.

I've alredy explained that "adequate" isn't the same thing as "good".

Quote:

It may be considerably less than the amount of fiat currency spent but billions is not a small number.

Yes it is. Not for an individual, but for a currency, yes.

The_Animus · 16th July 2020, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Had Madoff run his scams entirely in bitcoin it would have been all but impossible to seize any of the assets or recovered any of the money after he was convicted. Newer crypto-currencies do an even better job of this now so even the criminals are moving on from bitcoin.

It depends, but I would agree it's generally easier to recover fiat money than crypto. Fiat/crypto already spent on services and consumed goods is gone regardless. Fiat/crypto spent on non consumable goods can be sold off to recover some of the funds. Fiat can be moved around and hidden and may or may not be recovered. Obviously finding a paper or digital trail can assist in that. Crypto can be moved around and hidden in various wallets. Finding a hardware wallet or passwords/phrases for digital wallets can let you recover the funds.

psionl0 · 16th July 2020, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

If Bitcoin, once purchased, could never be transferred or sold who would buy them and how much would they be willing to pay?

My guess is that if not for the hope of making money reselling them, no one would buy them at all. Selling them, not holding them is clearly the appeal. Of course if it were a viable currency spending them would be the appeal, but that it pretty much off the table at this point.

The onus is on you to prove that there is no "hodling" going on.

The_Animus · 16th July 2020, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I've alredy explained that "adequate" isn't the same thing as "good".

Okay Belz. Define "adequate" and "good" and the difference between the two in this context. Then give an example of a product or service commonly purchased using bitcoin and why it's use for such only rises to adequate instead of good.

Belz... · 16th July 2020, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

Okay Belz. Define "adequate" and "good" and the difference between the two in this context.

What I mean is that while BTC can be used to pay for stuff, it's difficult to find places that take the currency, and so not everything can be purchased with it, as opposed to regular currency, with which you can buy everything. That's a ig difference, for me.

The_Animus · 16th July 2020, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

What I mean is that while BTC can be used to pay for stuff, it's difficult to find places that take the currency, and so not everything can be purchased with it, as opposed to regular currency, with which you can buy everything. That's a ig difference, for me.

I agree with you on that. And for the vast majority of products it is better to buy them with regular currency. A limited number of things, usually illegal, can be cheaper and safer for the consumer to purchase via bitcoin.

lomiller · 16th July 2020, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The onus is on you to prove that there is no "hodling" going on.

How so? It was your claim that people were buying it to hold. At a bare minimum you should be willing to explain why people would do something like that.

Dr.Sid · 16th July 2020, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

How so? It was your claim that people were buying it to hold. At a bare minimum you should be willing to explain why people would do something like that.

Well if you buy for 20k, you want to sell when the price is more than 20k. So that's very good reason to hodl.

Roger Ramjets · 16th July 2020, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

You mean if you send good old dollars to Nigerian prince, you will get them back ?

Many banks have systems in place to make it harder for people to be scammed this way - eg. withdrawal limits, personal confirmation required for international payments, credit card fraud protection, educating their customers about scams etc. It's actually quite difficult to be scammed by a 'Nigerian Prince' these days - you have to work around the protections. Even if you do manage it, if the scammer is not actually in Nigeria but a country with a working legal system (a distinct possibility) the authorities may be able to track them down and perhaps even recover some of your money (not that you deserve it - a person has to be particularly thick and greedy to fall for a 419 scam today).

With Bitcoin there is virtually no chance. With Bitcoin you could be scammed by your neighbor and can't do anything about it because there is no trail back to them. Since Bitcoin is such a risk it would make sense for banks to refuse to deal in it. That way they would at least protect their own customers from Bitcoin scams (and Bitcoin itself). Ideally there would be no connection at all between Bitcoin and fiat banks.

SuburbanTurkey · 16th July 2020, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Many banks have systems in place to make it harder for people to be scammed this way - eg. withdrawal limits, personal confirmation required for international payments, credit card fraud protection, educating their customers about scams etc. It's actually quite difficult to be scammed by a 'Nigerian Prince' these days - you have to work around the protections. Even if you do manage it, if the scammer is not actually in Nigeria but a country with a working legal system (a distinct possibility) the authorities may be able to track them down and perhaps even recover some of your money (not that you deserve it - a person has to be particularly thick and greedy to fall for a 419 scam today).

With Bitcoin there is virtually no chance. With Bitcoin you could be scammed by your neighbor and can't do anything about it because there is no trail back to them. Since Bitcoin is such a risk it would make sense for banks to refuse to deal in it. That way they would at least protect their own customers from Bitcoin scams (and Bitcoin itself). Ideally there would be no connection at all between Bitcoin and fiat banks.

Western Union wire is still a common vector for scam payments. So are electronic gift cards. These are basically same as cash transactions that are largely irreversible.

I don't really see the Twitter hack as a uniquely Bitcoin scam. If anything, the unpopularity of Bitcoin likely limited how many people this could target.

Roger Ramjets · 16th July 2020, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Well if you buy for 20k, you want to sell when the price is more than 20k. So that's very good reason to hodl.

Unless the price keeps going down, in which case it's better to sell now! How long do you HODL before deciding it's time to throw in the towel? If you bought really low and don't need the money then you could argue that it's better to HODL and hope the price goes up again. But people who bought in during the mania 3 years ago will probably never get their investment back.

Then one day you actually need the money (eg. due to falling ill or losing your job - a high probability these days) and have to cash out at whatever the price is at the time. It's only then that you realize what an idiot you were for HODLing. Once enough people get into that position, Bitcoin will tank like there's no tomorrow (which for Bitcoin there won't be).

Roger Ramjets · 16th July 2020, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

If anything, the unpopularity of Bitcoin likely limited how many people this could target.

But that is outweighed by distinct advantages - including the total anonymity of the scammers, lack of intervention measures, and capturing those who are most likely to fall for something that isn't what it seems (ie. bitcoiners).

Quote:

Western Union wire is still a common vector for scam payments. So are electronic gift cards.

Western Union is mostly used by immigrants sending money back to their families. Gift cards are... gift cards! People don't expect to get anything in return. Also they are not normally used for large sums of money. But Western Union is a well-known scamming vector, and they keep their customers informed about it.

Fraud Awareness with Western Union US

Quote:

One of the things that sets us apart from other money transfer businesses is the trust that we build with our consumers... In addition, we work harder than ever to educate consumers about fraud so that they can take action to protect themselves. Western Union has invested a tremendous amount of time and resources in developing and continuously improving our consumer protection compliance programs.

Bitcoin? The warnings are brushed off by coiners who accuse us of being shills for fiat banking.

psionl0 · 16th July 2020, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Then one day you actually need the money (eg. due to falling ill or losing your job - a high probability these days) and have to cash out at whatever the price is at the time. It's only then that you realize what an idiot you were for HODLing. Once enough people get into that position, Bitcoin will tank like there's no tomorrow (which for Bitcoin there won't be).

So large numbers of bitcoin holders will lose their jobs and have to cash in their bitcoins?

That's quite a bit of fortune telling there. In any other thread, somebody making a prediction like that would be dismissed as a kook.

SuburbanTurkey · 17th July 2020, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

But that is outweighed by distinct advantages - including the total anonymity of the scammers, lack of intervention measures, and capturing those who are most likely to fall for something that isn't what it seems (ie. bitcoiners).

Western Union is mostly used by immigrants sending money back to their families. Gift cards are... gift cards! People don't expect to get anything in return. Also they are not normally used for large sums of money. But Western Union is a well-known scamming vector, and they keep their customers informed about it.

Fraud Awareness with Western Union US

Bitcoin? The warnings are brushed off by coiners who accuse us of being shills for fiat banking.

I think the real benefit of a bitcoin scammer is that it can be done quickly from a home computer. The scam victim only has to believe the scam is real for a very short time, assuming they already involved with Bitcoin enough to know how to do transactions.

The Twitter security breach was pretty brief, and word got around quick about the hoax. Probably too fast to make Western Union a good option. Some sort of irreversible, electronic transfer from home was needed to cash in on the short scam window.

In that regards, Bitcoin was a good option.

Roger Ramjets · 17th July 2020, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

So large numbers of bitcoin holders will lose their jobs and have to cash in their bitcoins?

Rule of so? I never said it will happen.

Then again,

Unemployment rose higher in three months of COVID-19 than it did in two years of the Great Recession

Quote:

The COVID-19 outbreak and the economic downturn it engendered swelled the ranks of unemployed Americans by more than 14 million, from 6.2 million in February to 20.5 million in May 2020...

The rise in the number of unemployed workers due to COVID-19 is substantially greater than the increase due to the Great Recession, when the number unemployed increased by 8.8 million from the end of 2007 to the beginning of 2010. The Great Recession, which officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009, pushed the unemployment rate to a peak of 10.6% in January 2010, considerably less than the rate currently

14 million is definitely a large number, though of course we don't how many of them were bitcoiners.

Unemployment has reduced since we opened up, but now we are having to lock down again because the virus is spreading even faster than before. If we don't get a handle on it soon the number of infected could reach 10 million or more, with a large proportion having long-term health issues. How will this affect unemployment? We don't know exactly, but I bet it won't be good.

For Bitcoin's sake I hope that few Americans have significant holdings. However it wouldn't take a large number to have a big effect if they do. It would only take a few 'whales' cashing out to spook the market.

Quote:

That's quite a bit of fortune telling there. In any other thread, somebody making a prediction like that would be dismissed as a kook.

I made no predictions, so there is nothing to dismiss.

Roger Ramjets · 17th July 2020, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think the real benefit of a bitcoin scammer is that it can be done quickly from a home computer. The scam victim only has to believe the scam is real for a very short time, assuming they already involved with Bitcoin enough to know how to do transactions.

You can send money quickly from your computer with a credit card too. The difference is...

Quote:

The Twitter security breach was pretty brief, and word got around quick about the hoax. Probably too fast to make Western Union a good option. Some sort of irreversible, electronic transfer from home was needed to cash in on the short scam window.

In that regards, Bitcoin was a good option.

The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.

psionl0 · 18th July 2020, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Rule of so? I never said it will happen.

OK Big Dog.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Then again,

(doubles down on the rising unemployment "theory")

14 million is definitely a large number, though of course we don't how many of them were bitcoiners.

So you admit that you don't have a clue about the effect of rising unemployment on bitcoin prices.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

I made no predictions, so there is nothing to dismiss.

Yeah, right.

psionl0 · 18th July 2020, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.

A mind reader as well as a fortune teller. WOO!

ChrisBFRPKY · 18th July 2020, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

You can send money quickly from your computer with a credit card too. The difference is...

The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.

That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it.

Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart.

Chris B.

Samson · 18th July 2020, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it.

Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart.

Chris B.

You can sleep in 4 beds at once?

anduin · 19th July 2020, 07:54 AM

I can't believe that this thread is still going.

Bitcoin is not a currency, and the price is being propped up by Tether.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

psionl0 · 19th July 2020, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by anduin

I can't believe that this thread is still going.

Hatred for bitcoin is strong. As long as old discredited arguments can be repeated about bitcoin, this thread will never end.

anduin · 19th July 2020, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Hatred for bitcoin is strong. As long as old discredited arguments can be repeated about bitcoin, this thread will never end.

I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in.

Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.

Dr.Sid · 19th July 2020, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by anduin

I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in.

Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.

You mean the twitter hack ? Wiki says about 12BTC has moved. That's not really that much to shift price.
Still I'm surprised how many people went for it. This kind of scam is nothing new.

anduin · 19th July 2020, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

You mean the twitter hack ? Wiki says about 12BTC has moved. That's not really that much to shift price.
Still I'm surprised how many people went for it. This kind of scam is nothing new.

I wasn't expecting the 12 BTC to shift the price, but I sort of excpected that the interest in Bitcoin following the hack could move things up. Many Bitocoin maximalists were excited by this prospect because Bitcoin was trending topic. They're desperate because there's no new money coming in.

Dr.Sid · 19th July 2020, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by anduin

I wasn't expecting the 12 BTC to shift the price, but I sort of excpected that the interest in Bitcoin following the hack could move things up. Many Bitocoin maximalists were excited by this prospect because Bitcoin was trending topic. They're desperate because there's no new money coming in.

Yeah, it is quite stale. Even Coronavirus haven't really stir it.

anduin · 19th July 2020, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Yeah, it is quite stale. Even Coronavirus haven't really stir it.

The ultimate test for Bitcoin as a currency at the start of the pandemic was whether it could be used to buy toilet paper.

It's lacklustre even as store of value.

psionl0 · 19th July 2020, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by anduin

I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in.

I don't see how a Twitter hack proves that. Money "comes in" and "goes out" all the time.

Originally Posted by anduin

Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.

I don't see that thether tells us anything. It is a crypto that originally came with the fraudulent claim that every thether coin was backed by a USD.

It might be easier to buy BTC if you already have an alt-currency but that is a long way from saying that bitcoin is "propped up" by thether.

anduin · 20th July 2020, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't see that thether tells us anything. It is a crypto that originally came with the fraudulent claim that every thether coin was backed by a USD.

It might be easier to buy BTC if you already have an alt-currency but that is a long way from saying that bitcoin is "propped up" by thether.

By its nature, Bitcoin requires constant influx of funds to maintain its price, this is because mining costs money and miners need to eat and pay their energy bills. If there's no cash from investors coming in, then miners need to get money in other ways, hence the importance of a stablecoin such as Tether. The fact that an evidently fraudulent stablecoin is the third largest cryptocurrency in the world indicates its relative importance, the clue is in the fact that nobody's buying Tether, they're just printing it as needed.

psionl0 · 20th July 2020, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by anduin

By its nature, Bitcoin requires constant influx of funds to maintain its price, this is because mining costs money and miners need to eat and pay their energy bills.

This is what you get when a pseudo-expert starts making up theories. You get some nonsense about how bitcoin can't be sold unless money is "put into" it. The facts are a lot more mundane. Bitcoin simply gets sold at an agreed upon price. No money gets "put into" the bitcoin, it simply changes hands.

A handful of PCs will mine just as many bitcoins as an army of super computers. The only reason that high computing power is required is the price of bitcoin. The higher the price, the more profitable mining becomes and the more people get into mining.

Belz... · 20th July 2020, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The only reason that high computing power is required is the price of bitcoin.

Isn't it rather because it's becoming harder to mind them, by design?

The_Animus · 20th July 2020, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it.

Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart.

Chris B.

Why would you want 4 homes? Are you renting out the extras? Also to make enough profit in a few months to buy a home you must already have a large amount of money to play with.

In any case, congrats on the earnings

SuburbanTurkey · 20th July 2020, 10:38 AM

I guess the question I have that always comes back up:

What is the purpose of Bitcoin?

It seems there is a lot of interest in it as a investment. The volatility means that money can be made (or lost) quite quickly. People that got in in the very early days have made tidy fortunes. Seems to work fine for that, there is no shortage of people trading it. In that regard, it seems to work well enough.

It strikes me that using Bitcoin as an investment vehicle dwarfs its use as an exchange currency. The same volatility that makes it so attractive as a high risk, high reward investment makes it undesirable as a currency. Keeping bitcoin in your wallet is inherently risky. If you want to make a transaction, it makes sense to keep any value in bitcoin as shortly as possible, and convert it back to a less volatile medium immediately. Keeping money tied up in bitcoin for any length of time means accepting the risk of the volatile market.

psionl0 · 20th July 2020, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Isn't it rather because it's becoming harder to mind them, by design?

No.

The more computers that are used to mine bitcoin, the harder it becomes for an individual computer to mine for a bitcoin. Since the rate at which new blocks are mined is designed to be constant, it becomes just simple mathematics.

psionl0 · 20th July 2020, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

What is the purpose of Bitcoin?

It's design purpose is to be transmitted in any quantity across a hostile internet environment from almost any point on the globe to another part of the globe without the need (or interference) of a third party.

Good honest folks living in a liberal democracy probably don't have much need for such a facility but it is available if they want it.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Keeping bitcoin in your wallet is inherently risky. If you want to make a transaction, it makes sense to keep any value in bitcoin as shortly as possible, and convert it back to a less volatile medium immediately. Keeping money tied up in bitcoin for any length of time means accepting the risk of the volatile market.

The bitcoin price chart suggests the exact opposite. Apart from those who bought at the price peak in 2017, anybody who has "hodled" their bitcoins has had an investment that has not only kept its value remarkably well (over the long term) but has made a spectacular profit once they sold them.

SuburbanTurkey · 21st July 2020, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

The bitcoin price chart suggests the exact opposite. Apart from those who bought at the price peak in 2017, anybody who has "hodled" their bitcoins has had an investment that has not only kept its value remarkably well (over the long term) but has made a spectacular profit once they sold them.

That's my point. If you're treating bitcoin like a long term investment, you probably wouldn't be buying in at the peak in 2017. But what if you're trying to use it as an everyday currency during these fluctuations?

Say you wanted to buy a pack of socks using bitcoin during the peak 2017, and you kept the spare change in bitcoin after the transaction, you might find that, months later, the value has evaporated. Or maybe you find it has grown, which is nice. But that kind of volatility is not what most people expect with spending money. You can't HODL when you need socks today, and if the bictoin price isn't favorable, you're either forced to realize the loss or you're not getting your socks.

Unless you're HODL gang, it's probably best to move your spending money out of bitcoin as soon as the transaction is done.

Your point about borderless transfer of money is well taken though. An international, internet based currency is probably a tremendous convenience.

16th July 2020, 06:43 AM	#721
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by The_Animus It is good at it, for a certain subset of goods and services. Feels like you're moving the goalposts. It's adequate at it for a small subset of goods and services. Few people accept BTC. Quote: That's why there are billions in sales. That is a very small number.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

16th July 2020, 08:14 AM	#722
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,785	Originally Posted by psionl0 A large factor in the price of bitcoin is "hodling". People buy them and hang onto them. If Bitcoin, once purchased, could never be transferred or sold who would buy them and how much would they be willing to pay? My guess is that if not for the hope of making money reselling them, no one would buy them at all. Selling them, not holding them is clearly the appeal. Of course if it were a viable currency spending them would be the appeal, but that it pretty much off the table at this point.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" Last edited by lomiller; 16th July 2020 at 08:20 AM.

16th July 2020, 08:28 AM	#723
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,785	Originally Posted by The_Animus According to some guy named Madoff, fiat money is so awesome that no one ever gets scammed. Had Madoff run his scams entirely in bitcoin it would have been all but impossible to seize any of the assets or recovered any of the money after he was convicted. Newer crypto-currencies do an even better job of this now so even the criminals are moving on from bitcoin.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

16th July 2020, 08:55 AM	#724
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	Originally Posted by Belz... Feels like you're moving the goalposts. It's adequate at it for a small subset of goods and services. Few people accept BTC. I haven't moved anything. You said it's only good for speculation, I said it's good for buying certain things to the tune of billions a year, which it is. That is a very small number.[/quote] It may be considerably less than the amount of fiat currency spent but billions is not a small number.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

16th July 2020, 09:00 AM	#725
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by The_Animus I haven't moved anything. You said it's only good for speculation, I said it's good for buying certain things to the tune of billions a year, which it is. I've alredy explained that "adequate" isn't the same thing as "good". Quote: It may be considerably less than the amount of fiat currency spent but billions is not a small number. Yes it is. Not for an individual, but for a currency, yes.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

16th July 2020, 09:12 AM	#726
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	Originally Posted by lomiller Had Madoff run his scams entirely in bitcoin it would have been all but impossible to seize any of the assets or recovered any of the money after he was convicted. Newer crypto-currencies do an even better job of this now so even the criminals are moving on from bitcoin. It depends, but I would agree it's generally easier to recover fiat money than crypto. Fiat/crypto already spent on services and consumed goods is gone regardless. Fiat/crypto spent on non consumable goods can be sold off to recover some of the funds. Fiat can be moved around and hidden and may or may not be recovered. Obviously finding a paper or digital trail can assist in that. Crypto can be moved around and hidden in various wallets. Finding a hardware wallet or passwords/phrases for digital wallets can let you recover the funds.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

16th July 2020, 09:25 AM	#727
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by lomiller If Bitcoin, once purchased, could never be transferred or sold who would buy them and how much would they be willing to pay? My guess is that if not for the hope of making money reselling them, no one would buy them at all. Selling them, not holding them is clearly the appeal. Of course if it were a viable currency spending them would be the appeal, but that it pretty much off the table at this point. The onus is on you to prove that there is no "hodling" going on.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th July 2020, 09:31 AM	#728
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	Originally Posted by Belz... I've alredy explained that "adequate" isn't the same thing as "good". Okay Belz. Define "adequate" and "good" and the difference between the two in this context. Then give an example of a product or service commonly purchased using bitcoin and why it's use for such only rises to adequate instead of good.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

16th July 2020, 09:51 AM	#729
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by The_Animus Okay Belz. Define "adequate" and "good" and the difference between the two in this context. What I mean is that while BTC can be used to pay for stuff, it's difficult to find places that take the currency, and so not everything can be purchased with it, as opposed to regular currency, with which you can buy everything. That's a ig difference, for me.
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16th July 2020, 10:21 AM	#730
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	Originally Posted by Belz... What I mean is that while BTC can be used to pay for stuff, it's difficult to find places that take the currency, and so not everything can be purchased with it, as opposed to regular currency, with which you can buy everything. That's a ig difference, for me. I agree with you on that. And for the vast majority of products it is better to buy them with regular currency. A limited number of things, usually illegal, can be cheaper and safer for the consumer to purchase via bitcoin.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

16th July 2020, 12:19 PM	#731
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,785	Originally Posted by psionl0 The onus is on you to prove that there is no "hodling" going on. How so? It was your claim that people were buying it to hold. At a bare minimum you should be willing to explain why people would do something like that.
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16th July 2020, 01:28 PM	#732
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,033	Originally Posted by lomiller How so? It was your claim that people were buying it to hold. At a bare minimum you should be willing to explain why people would do something like that. Well if you buy for 20k, you want to sell when the price is more than 20k. So that's very good reason to hodl.

16th July 2020, 01:38 PM	#733
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,121	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid You mean if you send good old dollars to Nigerian prince, you will get them back ? Many banks have systems in place to make it harder for people to be scammed this way - eg. withdrawal limits, personal confirmation required for international payments, credit card fraud protection, educating their customers about scams etc. It's actually quite difficult to be scammed by a 'Nigerian Prince' these days - you have to work around the protections. Even if you do manage it, if the scammer is not actually in Nigeria but a country with a working legal system (a distinct possibility) the authorities may be able to track them down and perhaps even recover some of your money (not that you deserve it - a person has to be particularly thick and greedy to fall for a 419 scam today). With Bitcoin there is virtually no chance. With Bitcoin you could be scammed by your neighbor and can't do anything about it because there is no trail back to them. Since Bitcoin is such a risk it would make sense for banks to refuse to deal in it. That way they would at least protect their own customers from Bitcoin scams (and Bitcoin itself). Ideally there would be no connection at all between Bitcoin and fiat banks.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

16th July 2020, 01:40 PM	#734
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Many banks have systems in place to make it harder for people to be scammed this way - eg. withdrawal limits, personal confirmation required for international payments, credit card fraud protection, educating their customers about scams etc. It's actually quite difficult to be scammed by a 'Nigerian Prince' these days - you have to work around the protections. Even if you do manage it, if the scammer is not actually in Nigeria but a country with a working legal system (a distinct possibility) the authorities may be able to track them down and perhaps even recover some of your money (not that you deserve it - a person has to be particularly thick and greedy to fall for a 419 scam today). With Bitcoin there is virtually no chance. With Bitcoin you could be scammed by your neighbor and can't do anything about it because there is no trail back to them. Since Bitcoin is such a risk it would make sense for banks to refuse to deal in it. That way they would at least protect their own customers from Bitcoin scams (and Bitcoin itself). Ideally there would be no connection at all between Bitcoin and fiat banks. Western Union wire is still a common vector for scam payments. So are electronic gift cards. These are basically same as cash transactions that are largely irreversible. I don't really see the Twitter hack as a uniquely Bitcoin scam. If anything, the unpopularity of Bitcoin likely limited how many people this could target.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 16th July 2020 at 01:41 PM.

16th July 2020, 01:52 PM	#735
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,121	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Well if you buy for 20k, you want to sell when the price is more than 20k. So that's very good reason to hodl. Unless the price keeps going down, in which case it's better to sell now! How long do you HODL before deciding it's time to throw in the towel? If you bought really low and don't need the money then you could argue that it's better to HODL and hope the price goes up again. But people who bought in during the mania 3 years ago will probably never get their investment back. Then one day you actually need the money (eg. due to falling ill or losing your job - a high probability these days) and have to cash out at whatever the price is at the time. It's only then that you realize what an idiot you were for HODLing. Once enough people get into that position, Bitcoin will tank like there's no tomorrow (which for Bitcoin there won't be).
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

16th July 2020, 02:18 PM	#736
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,121	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey If anything, the unpopularity of Bitcoin likely limited how many people this could target. But that is outweighed by distinct advantages - including the total anonymity of the scammers, lack of intervention measures, and capturing those who are most likely to fall for something that isn't what it seems (ie. bitcoiners). Quote: Western Union wire is still a common vector for scam payments. So are electronic gift cards. Western Union is mostly used by immigrants sending money back to their families. Gift cards are... gift cards! People don't expect to get anything in return. Also they are not normally used for large sums of money. But Western Union is a well-known scamming vector, and they keep their customers informed about it. Fraud Awareness with Western Union US Quote: One of the things that sets us apart from other money transfer businesses is the trust that we build with our consumers... In addition, we work harder than ever to educate consumers about fraud so that they can take action to protect themselves. Western Union has invested a tremendous amount of time and resources in developing and continuously improving our consumer protection compliance programs. Bitcoin? The warnings are brushed off by coiners who accuse us of being shills for fiat banking.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

16th July 2020, 07:18 PM	#737
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Then one day you actually need the money (eg. due to falling ill or losing your job - a high probability these days) and have to cash out at whatever the price is at the time. It's only then that you realize what an idiot you were for HODLing. Once enough people get into that position, Bitcoin will tank like there's no tomorrow (which for Bitcoin there won't be). So large numbers of bitcoin holders will lose their jobs and have to cash in their bitcoins? That's quite a bit of fortune telling there. In any other thread, somebody making a prediction like that would be dismissed as a kook.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

17th July 2020, 04:19 AM	#738
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets But that is outweighed by distinct advantages - including the total anonymity of the scammers, lack of intervention measures, and capturing those who are most likely to fall for something that isn't what it seems (ie. bitcoiners). Western Union is mostly used by immigrants sending money back to their families. Gift cards are... gift cards! People don't expect to get anything in return. Also they are not normally used for large sums of money. But Western Union is a well-known scamming vector, and they keep their customers informed about it. Fraud Awareness with Western Union US Bitcoin? The warnings are brushed off by coiners who accuse us of being shills for fiat banking. I think the real benefit of a bitcoin scammer is that it can be done quickly from a home computer. The scam victim only has to believe the scam is real for a very short time, assuming they already involved with Bitcoin enough to know how to do transactions. The Twitter security breach was pretty brief, and word got around quick about the hoax. Probably too fast to make Western Union a good option. Some sort of irreversible, electronic transfer from home was needed to cash in on the short scam window. In that regards, Bitcoin was a good option.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th July 2020 at 04:21 AM.

17th July 2020, 02:11 PM	#739
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,121	Originally Posted by psionl0 So large numbers of bitcoin holders will lose their jobs and have to cash in their bitcoins? Rule of so? I never said it will happen. Then again, Unemployment rose higher in three months of COVID-19 than it did in two years of the Great Recession Quote: The COVID-19 outbreak and the economic downturn it engendered swelled the ranks of unemployed Americans by more than 14 million, from 6.2 million in February to 20.5 million in May 2020... The rise in the number of unemployed workers due to COVID-19 is substantially greater than the increase due to the Great Recession, when the number unemployed increased by 8.8 million from the end of 2007 to the beginning of 2010. The Great Recession, which officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009, pushed the unemployment rate to a peak of 10.6% in January 2010, considerably less than the rate currently 14 million is definitely a large number, though of course we don't how many of them were bitcoiners. Unemployment has reduced since we opened up, but now we are having to lock down again because the virus is spreading even faster than before. If we don't get a handle on it soon the number of infected could reach 10 million or more, with a large proportion having long-term health issues. How will this affect unemployment? We don't know exactly, but I bet it won't be good. For Bitcoin's sake I hope that few Americans have significant holdings. However it wouldn't take a large number to have a big effect if they do. It would only take a few 'whales' cashing out to spook the market. Quote: That's quite a bit of fortune telling there. In any other thread, somebody making a prediction like that would be dismissed as a kook. I made no predictions, so there is nothing to dismiss.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

17th July 2020, 02:25 PM	#740
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,121	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I think the real benefit of a bitcoin scammer is that it can be done quickly from a home computer. The scam victim only has to believe the scam is real for a very short time, assuming they already involved with Bitcoin enough to know how to do transactions. You can send money quickly from your computer with a credit card too. The difference is... Quote: The Twitter security breach was pretty brief, and word got around quick about the hoax. Probably too fast to make Western Union a good option. Some sort of irreversible, electronic transfer from home was needed to cash in on the short scam window. In that regards, Bitcoin was a good option. The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

18th July 2020, 03:10 PM	#741
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Rule of so? I never said it will happen. OK Big Dog. Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Then again, (doubles down on the rising unemployment "theory") 14 million is definitely a large number, though of course we don't how many of them were bitcoiners. So you admit that you don't have a clue about the effect of rising unemployment on bitcoin prices. Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets I made no predictions, so there is nothing to dismiss. Yeah, right.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th July 2020, 06:37 PM	#742
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are. A mind reader as well as a fortune teller. WOO!
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

18th July 2020, 11:17 PM	#743
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,909	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets You can send money quickly from your computer with a credit card too. The difference is... The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are. That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it. Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart. Chris B.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,909

18th July 2020, 11:59 PM	#744
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,357	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it. Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart. Chris B. You can sleep in 4 beds at once?

19th July 2020, 07:54 AM	#745
anduin Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Brighton, UK Posts: 275	I can't believe that this thread is still going. Bitcoin is not a currency, and the price is being propped up by Tether. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

19th July 2020, 08:48 AM	#746
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by anduin I can't believe that this thread is still going. Hatred for bitcoin is strong. As long as old discredited arguments can be repeated about bitcoin, this thread will never end.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

19th July 2020, 09:19 AM	#747
anduin Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Brighton, UK Posts: 275	Originally Posted by psionl0 Hatred for bitcoin is strong. As long as old discredited arguments can be repeated about bitcoin, this thread will never end. I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in. Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.

19th July 2020, 09:49 AM	#748
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,033	Originally Posted by anduin I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in. Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know. You mean the twitter hack ? Wiki says about 12BTC has moved. That's not really that much to shift price. Still I'm surprised how many people went for it. This kind of scam is nothing new.

19th July 2020, 09:54 AM	#749
anduin Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Brighton, UK Posts: 275	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid You mean the twitter hack ? Wiki says about 12BTC has moved. That's not really that much to shift price. Still I'm surprised how many people went for it. This kind of scam is nothing new. I wasn't expecting the 12 BTC to shift the price, but I sort of excpected that the interest in Bitcoin following the hack could move things up. Many Bitocoin maximalists were excited by this prospect because Bitcoin was trending topic. They're desperate because there's no new money coming in.

19th July 2020, 10:23 AM	#750
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 4,033	Originally Posted by anduin I wasn't expecting the 12 BTC to shift the price, but I sort of excpected that the interest in Bitcoin following the hack could move things up. Many Bitocoin maximalists were excited by this prospect because Bitcoin was trending topic. They're desperate because there's no new money coming in. Yeah, it is quite stale. Even Coronavirus haven't really stir it.

19th July 2020, 11:40 AM	#751
anduin Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Brighton, UK Posts: 275	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid Yeah, it is quite stale. Even Coronavirus haven't really stir it. The ultimate test for Bitcoin as a currency at the start of the pandemic was whether it could be used to buy toilet paper. It's lacklustre even as store of value.

19th July 2020, 05:41 PM	#752
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by anduin I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in. I don't see how a Twitter hack proves that. Money "comes in" and "goes out" all the time. Originally Posted by anduin Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know. I don't see that thether tells us anything. It is a crypto that originally came with the fraudulent claim that every thether coin was backed by a USD. It might be easier to buy BTC if you already have an alt-currency but that is a long way from saying that bitcoin is "propped up" by thether.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th July 2020, 02:43 AM	#753
anduin Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Brighton, UK Posts: 275	Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't see that thether tells us anything. It is a crypto that originally came with the fraudulent claim that every thether coin was backed by a USD. It might be easier to buy BTC if you already have an alt-currency but that is a long way from saying that bitcoin is "propped up" by thether. By its nature, Bitcoin requires constant influx of funds to maintain its price, this is because mining costs money and miners need to eat and pay their energy bills. If there's no cash from investors coming in, then miners need to get money in other ways, hence the importance of a stablecoin such as Tether. The fact that an evidently fraudulent stablecoin is the third largest cryptocurrency in the world indicates its relative importance, the clue is in the fact that nobody's buying Tether, they're just printing it as needed.

20th July 2020, 07:53 AM	#754
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,922	Originally Posted by anduin By its nature, Bitcoin requires constant influx of funds to maintain its price, this is because mining costs money and miners need to eat and pay their energy bills. This is what you get when a pseudo-expert starts making up theories. You get some nonsense about how bitcoin can't be sold unless money is "put into" it. The facts are a lot more mundane. Bitcoin simply gets sold at an agreed upon price. No money gets "put into" the bitcoin, it simply changes hands. A handful of PCs will mine just as many bitcoins as an army of super computers. The only reason that high computing power is required is the price of bitcoin. The higher the price, the more profitable mining becomes and the more people get into mining.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th July 2020, 08:47 AM	#755
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by psionl0 The only reason that high computing power is required is the price of bitcoin. Isn't it rather because it's becoming harder to mind them, by design?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward