Merged: Bitcoin - Part 3

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by psionl0

......., one legal benefit is that the government can't raid your bitcoin wallet like it does your bank account.

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Well, actually they can.

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Of course they can't.

Originally Posted by psionl0

If the law permits the government to take money out of your bank account without any due process then bitcoin is useful for circumventing that.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Even if your theory about the history of the tulip mania was the slightest bit accurate, it is not a predictor about bitcoin.

The tulip mania lasted less than 12 months and never got up again while bitcoin keeps going up and down repeatedly. For other differences see the thousands of other posts that have been made for more than a decade.

More reach, more bigger fools to count on. Scale is hardly a defense of the bigger fool problem.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

More reach, more bigger fools to count on. Scale is hardly a defense of the bigger fool problem.

I knew you wouldn't read any of the posts that explained why there is no connection between bitcoin and tulips whatsoever. You didn't even read the post you quoted.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by psionl0

I knew you wouldn't read any of the posts that explained why there is no connection between bitcoin and tulips whatsoever. You didn't even read the post you quoted.

Tulips are pretty flowers.

Otherwise, both have value based on the hope that a bigger fool will think they have value.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Tulips are pretty flowers.

Otherwise, both have value based on the hope that a bigger fool will think they have value.

You remind me of the idiot who insisted that bitcoin was a pyramid scheme. It didn't matter that there was no MLM aspect, nobody being recruited to sell bitcoins and nobody further up the chain getting a cut of your sales. "IT'S A PYRAMID GODDAMMIT"!

In a similar manner, you don't care that bitcoin has a utility that "pretty flowers" will never have and that is why bitcoin keeps bouncing back after a major tumble but tulips never did. IT'S A TULIP GODDAMMIT!

ETA comparing bitcoin to tulips is like comparing gold to iron (after all, they are both metals, right?) and concluding that gold will rust.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by psionl0

I knew you wouldn't read any of the posts that explained why there is no connection between bitcoin and tulips whatsoever. You didn't even read the post you quoted.

That's because there are no posts that explain why bitcoin speculation is fundamentally different than tulip bulb speculation. You dodging the question then later on laying and saying "it's been answered" when it most certainly hasn't is getting old.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You remind me of the idiot who insisted that bitcoin was a pyramid scheme. It didn't matter that there was no MLM aspect, nobody being recruited to sell bitcoins and nobody further up the chain getting a cut of your sales. "IT'S A PYRAMID GODDAMMIT"!

In a similar manner, you don't care that bitcoin has a utility that "pretty flowers" will never have

No it doesn't. Bitcoin is patently inferior to any real currency, using it sacrifices utility and destroys productivity.

The only utility bitcoin has is that it gives fanbois the warm and fuzzy feeling of owning bitcoin. (a useless form of utility, but technically utility nonetheless). This is no different than tulip bulb speculation, the only real difference is that tulip bulbs have the added utility of growing into attractive flowers.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You remind me of the idiot who insisted that bitcoin was a pyramid scheme. It didn't matter that there was no MLM aspect, nobody being recruited to sell bitcoins and nobody further up the chain getting a cut of your sales. "IT'S A PYRAMID GODDAMMIT"!

In a similar manner, you don't care that bitcoin has a utility that "pretty flowers" will never have and that is why bitcoin keeps bouncing back after a major tumble but tulips never did. IT'S A TULIP GODDAMMIT!

ETA comparing bitcoin to tulips is like comparing gold to iron (after all, they are both metals, right?) and concluding that gold will rust.

You are correct. It is not a pyramid scheme. That requires more structure. And subterfuge.

I have also pointed out that it is not a tulip. That would be a physical thing.

But both are similar to Bitcoin in that the only reason it has value is that one assumes that a bigger fool will come along thinking it has more value. Because the bigger fool is betting on an even bigger fool.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by lomiller

No it doesn't.

Yes it does. You can't deny its utility just because you hate bitcoin.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

. . . bigger fool . . .

The most common claims among bitcoin haters are
- bitcoin has no use (other than speculation).
- only criminals use bitcoin.

A large fraction of the haters make both claims simultaneously but they are so illogical that they can't see that these claims contradict each other.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Yes it does.

Repeating yourself won't change the facts.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by lomiller

Repeating yourself won't change the facts.

Yet you do it anyway.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You remind me of the idiot who insisted that bitcoin was a pyramid scheme. It didn't matter that there was no MLM aspect, nobody being recruited to sell bitcoins and nobody further up the chain getting a cut of your sales. "IT'S A PYRAMID GODDAMMIT"!

In a similar manner, you don't care that bitcoin has a utility that "pretty flowers" will never have and that is why bitcoin keeps bouncing back after a major tumble but tulips never did. IT'S A TULIP GODDAMMIT!

ETA comparing bitcoin to tulips is like comparing gold to iron (after all, they are both metals, right?) and concluding that gold will rust.

See post one of this thread. Look at an ad on the internet or even a football team sponsor. There is a push to buy Bitcoin.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

See post one of this thread.

Do you mean this one?

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Back to $7500. Somebody is pumping it hard.

Continued from here

Posted By:kmortis

Surely you don't mean the post by michaelsuede that started the whole thing? Hating something just because the "wrong" person posts in favour of it is the ultimate ad-hominem.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Do you mean this one?



Surely you don't mean the post by michaelsuede that started the whole thing? Hating something just because the "wrong" person posts in favour of it is the ultimate ad-hominem.

Do you know what pumping it hard means?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Do you know what pumping it hard means?

Who is "pumping it hard"?

[Dr.Sid]

So mysterious .. I have no idea what we are even talking about any more ..

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by psionl0

The most common claims among bitcoin haters are
- bitcoin has no use (other than speculation).
- only criminals use bitcoin.

A large fraction of the haters make both claims simultaneously but they are so illogical that they can't see that these claims contradict each other.

Do you know what a strawman is?

Bitcoin has no legitimate use, it is only useful to criminals and speculators counting on the bigger fool.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

. . . the only reason it has value is that one assumes that a bigger fool will come along thinking it has more value.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Bitcoin has no legitimate use, it is only useful to criminals and speculators counting on the bigger fool.

you had to add the word "legitimate" to try and avoid looking like an illogical fool. But most haters don't. You didn't even think of the criminal application until I reminded you of it.

Yet for all that, what you post is just illogical hatred that has no basis in fact whatsoever. But it has been the pattern for more than a decade that every time bitcoin has a major price slide, a whole new bunch of posters show up and copy posts from 2011. Why would you be any different?

[Dr. Keith]

It has value due to speculation on the bigger fool. It has utility as a tool for criminals. A tool for criminals doesn’t have such an erratic valuation. The two are unrelated. Bitcoin at $4 is still useful to criminals.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

It has value due to speculation on the bigger fool. It has utility as a tool for criminals. A tool for criminals doesn’t have such an erratic valuation. The two are unrelated. Bitcoin at $4 is still useful to criminals.

All proven to be TOTAL RUBBISH in 2011. But worse, you actually think you are posting original total rubbish.

[Captain_Swoop]

Bitcoin does have some utility.

Remember the Silk Road era?

Here is the story of how the creator of Silk Road thought he was using his bitcoin to hire an assassin but instead instead got taken for a ride.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Who is "pumping it hard"?

Does it matter. It means someone is trying to manipulate the price of a coin.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Does it matter. It means that a poster is claiming that someone is trying to manipulate the price of a coin.

ftfy.

Asserted without evidence of course.

[Samson]

Negligible institutional interest in crypto.

The "assets" are doomed

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Do you know what a strawman is?

Bitcoin has no legitimate use, it is only useful to criminals and speculators counting on the bigger fool.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Bitcoin does have some utility.

Remember the Silk Road era?

Here is the story of how the creator of Silk Road thought he was using his bitcoin to hire an assassin but instead instead got taken for a ride.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm well over trying to argue whether Bitcoin is good or bad. You guys seem to think Bitcoin has no use or value whatsoever, and that's fine of course. Who am I to deny someone their opinion?

The thing is, I use Bitcoin and other crypto on a routine basis to do business expense transfers overseas. I've done this for several years at this point and it has saved me thousands in transfer fees alone. Plus the time factor is much faster to transfer via BTC/crypto rather than manual bank transfers/wiring. No trips to the bank, no waiting days for confirmation of the transfer, I can see the amount posted in the overseas account within minutes. it's just an all around better way to transfer wealth or in this case monthly expenses, overseas. If for no other reason than that, Bitcoin is a winner.

[gnome]

Do you transfer directly wallet-to-wallet or through some kind of exchange?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm well over trying to argue whether Bitcoin is good or bad. You guys seem to think Bitcoin has no use or value whatsoever, and that's fine of course. Who am I to deny someone their opinion?

The thing is, I use Bitcoin and other crypto on a routine basis to do business expense transfers overseas. I've done this for several years at this point and it has saved me thousands in transfer fees alone. Plus the time factor is much faster to transfer via BTC/crypto rather than manual bank transfers/wiring. No trips to the bank, no waiting days for confirmation of the transfer, I can see the amount posted in the overseas account within minutes. it's just an all around better way to transfer wealth or in this case monthly expenses, overseas. If for no other reason than that, Bitcoin is a winner.

That is the intended use.
Crypto is money printing of course, so there is no need for capital gain. If a lot more crypto is needed, anyone can create their own with a fiat currency just as any business asset can be purchased. There is no need for capital gain of the asset, and that is the reality crypto is encountering.
At market cap a trillion, maybe the only way to 2 trillion this time is with investing fiat currency.
It might be eggs that becomes the ideal currency, see Catch 22.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm well over trying to argue whether Bitcoin is good or bad. You guys seem to think Bitcoin has no use or value whatsoever, and that's fine of course. Who am I to deny someone their opinion?

The thing is, I use Bitcoin and other crypto on a routine basis to do business expense transfers overseas. I've done this for several years at this point and it has saved me thousands in transfer fees alone. Plus the time factor is much faster to transfer via BTC/crypto rather than manual bank transfers/wiring. No trips to the bank, no waiting days for confirmation of the transfer, I can see the amount posted in the overseas account within minutes. it's just an all around better way to transfer wealth or in this case monthly expenses, overseas. If for no other reason than that, Bitcoin is a winner.

Cool. I can Venmo or Zelle small amounts and have transferred larger amounts without ever going to a bank. True, it can take an hour or two to transfer funds, but that’s not typically an issue with legitimate business transfers like buying assets or real estate.

I’ve probably not transferred as much money as you have internationally, mainly just client funds to foreign law firms, but the timing has always astonished me as being quick. Especially since I can do it from my phone.

Most of the international invoices I receive are in local currency and USD. I tend to check the exchange rate at the time I’m paying and pay in the currency that is cheaper for me. The difference is typically quite minor.

Do you get invoices in Bitcoin? What exchange rate do you use? At the time of invoice or at the time of payment?

Do they kill the hostage if you don’t use the right exchange rate?

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by psionl0

All proven to be TOTAL RUBBISH in 2011. But worse, you actually think you are posting original total rubbish.

I don’t think I’m original at all. In fact I’ve pointed out that Bill Gates is the latest to point out the obvious issue with Bitcoin.

The next person to point out that I am bald is neither original nor wrong. See how that works?

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I don’t think I’m original at all. In fact I’ve pointed out that Bill Gates is the latest to point out the obvious issue with Bitcoin.

The next person to point out that I am bald is neither original nor wrong. See how that works?

But you are definitely wrong.

Your assertion that the bigger fool theory applies uniquely to bitcoin and no other instrument of speculation and that only criminals use bitcoin has been repeated ad-nauseum since 2011. You neither acknowledge these earlier arguments nor the responses to them.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by psionl0

But you are definitely wrong.

Your assertion that the bigger fool theory applies uniquely to bitcoin and no other instrument of speculation

I don't see where Dr. Keith made such an assertion, re you sure you are not just imagining things again?

Originally Posted by psionl0

that only criminals use bitcoin has been repeated ad-nauseum since 2011. You neither acknowledge these earlier arguments nor the responses to them.

In that case let me summarize your earlier reposes:
response a) na na na I can't hear you
response b) Invent some stawman about it being "only criminals that use bitcoin" when in the fact argument goes that traditional vehicles are simply a much better option for non- criminals.
response c) "I answered that in response a!"

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by lomiller

I don't see where Dr. Keith made such an assertion, re you sure you are not just imagining things again?

That's because you are looking at this thread with both eyes closed:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Bitcoin has no legitimate use, it is only useful to criminals and speculators counting on the bigger fool.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by psionl0

That's because you are looking at this thread with both eyes closed:

So you admit to creating a stawman that it can't be used for anything else when what he really said is that it isn't used for anything else.

Also worth noting is that when someone says something like that finding a handful of exceptions doesn't change the principle being argued. We don't need to add caveats every single time we talk about how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by lomiller

So you admit to creating a stawman that it can't be used for anything else when what he really said is that it isn't used for anything else.

He didn't say that. Open your eyes.

Originally Posted by lomiller

Also worth noting is that when someone says something like that finding a handful of exceptions doesn't change the principle being argued. We don't need to add caveats every single time we talk about how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for.

You have no data whatsoever on the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes. As usual, you are making up your own "facts".

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You have no data whatsoever on the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes. As usual, you are making up your own "facts".

I never mentioned "the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes". If you have a claim to make regarding this than make it but stop lying about it.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by lomiller

I never mentioned "the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes". If you have a claim to make regarding this than make it but stop lying about it.

You posted about a "handful of exemptions" and "how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for". Clearly you are saying that the bulk of bitcoin transactions are criminal in nature. Without any data of course.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by psionl0

You posted about a "handful of exemptions" and "how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for". Clearly you are saying that the bulk of bitcoin transactions are criminal in nature. Without any data of course.

This confuses type of transactions with raw numbers. The raw numbers would probably favor speculative transactions.

Also it's important to be clear what is meant by "criminal." Someone using it to send money to someone within a crumbling despotic state might be technically committing a crime if that country has confiscatory laws, I guess, but not sure I'd break into a sweat over that.

Bitcoin has a libertarian origin. Which means part of the whole point is civil disobedience. In that light all of this seems more a feature than a bug.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by psionl0

But you are definitely wrong.

Your assertion that the bigger fool theory applies uniquely to bitcoin and no other instrument of speculation and that only criminals use bitcoin has been repeated ad-nauseum since 2011. You neither acknowledge these earlier arguments nor the responses to them.

Remove the words “uniquely” and “only” and I think you will get closer to understanding my arguments.

In fact, I’ve given examples of other speculative investments that rely on the bigger fool theory.

And the fact that i acknowledge this speculative activity is a clear indication that there are non-criminal transaction.

Like most thing libertarian it misses the history of how we ended up with the system we have. Libertarians decry the coddling state of the automobile industry, with the seat belts and airbags that serve no real purpose, and insist they should be allowed on the highway with their souped up lawn mower. Bitcoin is not so different.

If you really want to free yourself from government controlled fiat currency then make a crypto currency that can only be exchanged for goods or services. No interaction with fiat currency allowed. You either mine it or earn it, you can’t buy it or sell it with tainted paper.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Cool. I can Venmo or Zelle small amounts and have transferred larger amounts without ever going to a bank. True, it can take an hour or two to transfer funds, but that’s not typically an issue with legitimate business transfers like buying assets or real estate.

I’ve probably not transferred as much money as you have internationally, mainly just client funds to foreign law firms, but the timing has always astonished me as being quick. Especially since I can do it from my phone.

Most of the international invoices I receive are in local currency and USD. I tend to check the exchange rate at the time I’m paying and pay in the currency that is cheaper for me. The difference is typically quite minor.

Do you get invoices in Bitcoin? What exchange rate do you use? At the time of invoice or at the time of payment?

Do they kill the hostage if you don’t use the right exchange rate?

It's not that kind of business. Full points reply though!

I receive an invoice in THB, convert to the current USD/THB exchange rate and transfer the funds via crypto. It's very easy and I've tweaked the process along the way. In most cases now the transfers are completely free and go from crypto to THB and on to the receiving bank momentarily. They like to claim the transfers are "Instant" but in reality it takes a few minutes likely due to the people factor at the local bank. Prior to using crypto for transfers it cost me at minimum $50 and a trip to the bank to complete a wire and then the days of waiting. Now, it's fast and free.

Have there been transfers that changed in value? Yes, a couple of times due to a "slight delay" on the other end. (This has been corrected by one of the tweaks I made to the system.) Because of the "slight delay" on the other end, the price of Bitcoin rose before the conversion to THB. While this was in our favor it was still unacceptable as these funds were for expenses, not speculation. It could just as easily gone the other way which is why I now control both ends of the transaction. This removed the "slight delay" factor and the interest in speculation. People are only Human.