Continuation The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread Part 2

[Skeptic Ginger]

Has anyone posted the blood clots piece yet?

Pathologist found blood clots in ‘almost every organ’ during autopsies on COVID-19 patients

Pretty scary stuff.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Has anyone posted the blood clots piece yet?

Pathologist found blood clots in ‘almost every organ’ during autopsies on COVID-19 patients

Pretty scary stuff.

What about those who are perceived as recovered? Do they have a bunch of undetected clots that could wreak havoc at any time? Scary thought.

[The Atheist]

Just as well nobody trusts China on anything, because if this is true, then we definitely have a problem.

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/chi...nown-pneumonia

[The Atheist]

And just in case anyone thought it was only Americans who have a problem with wearing masks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sed-wear-masks

[Ulf Nereng]

I've been seeing more of these stories about people being reinfected lately. This one about a woman who was first infected in march, took weeks to recover, and is now infected again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhyEBIpaIaM&t=934s

Is it reinfection, or could it be that the virus is able to "go into hiding" and re-emerge later, I wonder?

(The Peak Prosperity guy has some controversial opinions, such as that Hydroxychloroquine works, but is mostly sane, IMO!)

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Has anyone posted the blood clots piece yet?

Pathologist found blood clots in ‘almost every organ’ during autopsies on COVID-19 patients

Pretty scary stuff.

What happens to dead bodies normally? Is it possible for blood clots to form after death?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

Is it reinfection, or could it be that the virus is able to "go into hiding" and re-emerge later, I wonder?

I think it's not so much the virus is in hiding, but viral particles hang around and look like a reinfection.

Not unusual for viruses to shed for a long time after the symptoms are gone. Norovirus can shed for weeks after clearing up.

Originally Posted by Puppycow

What happens to dead bodies normally? Is it possible for blood clots to form after death?

I'm pretty sure that's not possible, and the reason deceased had such a level of clots is that it seems most severe cases have extreme clotting.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

I've been seeing more of these stories about people being reinfected lately. This one about a woman who was first infected in march, took weeks to recover, and is now infected again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhyEBIpaIaM&t=934s

Is it reinfection, or could it be that the virus is able to "go into hiding" and re-emerge later, I wonder?

(The Peak Prosperity guy has some controversial opinions, such as that Hydroxychloroquine works, but is mostly sane, IMO!)

I've seen this guy's videos before. He seems to be a rational person albeit with a few questionable ideas about nutrition and stuff like that. He spotted the fraudulent Lancet study on hydroxychloroquine (which was later retracted) and his video made me look into that more closely. I continue to take some things he says with a grain of salt but he is a rational person.

As far as this particular woman who has had SARS-COV-2 twice (allegedly) Did they say that this was confirmed with a PCR test each time? I'm watching the video and it doesn't seem to be mentioned that she has ever had a positive PCR test. Maybe because it's too obvious to mention but I want to make sure this isn't just a "self diagnosis" but a confirmed laboratory diagnosis.

[Lplus]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Has anyone posted the blood clots piece yet?

Pathologist found blood clots in ‘almost every organ’ during autopsies on COVID-19 patients

Pretty scary stuff.

I can't get that link in the UK but I've seen the same headline in the last couple of weeks over here.

There's this about blood clots https://www.jpost.com/health-science...d-clots-631681

I also found something about blood damage 3 months ago, but it didn't have a list of scientists a yard long attached so I didn't really take a lot of notice. Different theory though. https://underdogsbiteupwards.wordpre.../a-new-theory/

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And are we sure about this "kids aren't spreading it, open the schools" assertion?

I've replied to this over in the COVID politics thread.

[Bob001]

A study finds evidence that the TB vaccine may enhance general immunity and reduce covid mortality.

Quote:

Researchers found that countries where many people have been given the vaccine have had less mortality from Covid-19.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...id=mailsignout

Also relevant:

Quote:

Other researchers have suggested that vaccines for polio and measles, mumps and rubella, may provide similar protections against lethal infections, including coronavirus.

Older people are less likely to have had those childhood vaccinations. I wonder if that could be a factor in the increased covid mortality associated with the elderly.

[marting]

Surprising lack of quality data on children/school spread. Many missed opportunities to get that data so biases are driving decisions.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...pite-outbreaks

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Bob001

A study finds evidence that the TB vaccine may enhance general immunity and reduce covid mortality.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...id=mailsignout

Also relevant:


Older people are less likely to have had those childhood vaccinations. I wonder if that could be a factor in the increased covid mortality associated with the elderly.

I am 66. Does that qualify as “older” re your comment?

I had the polio vaccine as a child. I did not have MMR vaccine but I did have the actual diseases, following which I have life-long immunity from each. So are you speculating that it is specifically having the vaccine that may help, or could it be the immunity regardless of how obtained, that could be a factor?

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Bob001

A study finds evidence that the TB vaccine may enhance general immunity and reduce covid mortality.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...id=mailsignout

Also relevant:


Older people are less likely to have had those childhood vaccinations. I wonder if that could be a factor in the increased covid mortality associated with the elderly.

This was mentioned in one of the threads here a little while ago (possibly the Territory Anomaly thread). The UK used to have universal BCG vaccinations for teenagers, for many decades, but stopped a dozen or so years ago, IIRC. Not sure if the mortality figures reflect that, though. My mum had the vaccination well before it was universal, more than 70 years ago.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Steve

I am 66. Does that qualify as “older” re your comment?

I had the polio vaccine as a child. I did not have MMR vaccine but I did have the actual diseases, following which I have life-long immunity from each. So are you speculating that it is specifically having the vaccine that may help, or could it be the immunity regardless of how obtained, that could be a factor?

I'm not qualified to have an opinion. I note that the article referred specifically to people who have had those vaccines, not to people who have had the diseases themselves. I don't know whether the mechanisms that create immunity as a result of vaccination are the same as or different from the mechanisms that create immunity as a result of disease.

And the MMR isn't/wasn't generally given to people born before 1957, so "old" for this purpose would be about 63.

Quote:

Anyone born before 1957 is generally considered immune.

https://www.drugs.com/cg/mmr-vaccine-for-adults.html

[Ulf Nereng]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

I've seen this guy's videos before. He seems to be a rational person albeit with a few questionable ideas about nutrition and stuff like that. He spotted the fraudulent Lancet study on hydroxychloroquine (which was later retracted) and his video made me look into that more closely. I continue to take some things he says with a grain of salt but he is a rational person.

As far as this particular woman who has had SARS-COV-2 twice (allegedly) Did they say that this was confirmed with a PCR test each time? I'm watching the video and it doesn't seem to be mentioned that she has ever had a positive PCR test. Maybe because it's too obvious to mention but I want to make sure this isn't just a "self diagnosis" but a confirmed laboratory diagnosis.

Reading the comments section makes it clear that many think this is a go-fund-me scam by the husband and wife.

Good catch, Puppycow!

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Bob001

I'm not qualified to have an opinion. I note that the article referred specifically to people who have had those vaccines, not to people who have had the diseases themselves. I don't know whether the mechanisms that create immunity as a result of vaccination are the same as or different from the mechanisms that create immunity as a result of disease.

And the MMR isn't/wasn't generally given to people born before 1957, so "old" for this purpose would be about 63.

https://www.drugs.com/cg/mmr-vaccine-for-adults.html

Perhaps I owe you an apology. I took your comment re MMR to be your own opinion rather than a restate of the article. I have no issue with anything you have written but I am still curious about the details I posted.

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Just as well nobody trusts China on anything, because if this is true, then we definitely have a problem.

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/world/chi...nown-pneumonia

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And just in case anyone thought it was only Americans who have a problem with wearing masks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sed-wear-masks

China embassy warns of deadly 'unknown pneumonia' [Otago Daily Times]

French bus driver dies following attack by passengers who refused to wear masks [The Guardian]

I fixed the links for you. Please see The campaign for good linking. Please do not post raw links with no context or hint as to what they're about.

[Blue Mountain]

Originally Posted by marting

Surprising lack of quality data on children/school spread. Many missed opportunities to get that data so biases are driving decisions.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...pite-outbreaks

School openings across globe suggest ways to keep coronavirus at bay, despite outbreaks [sciencemag.org]

I fixed the link for you. Please see The campaign for good linking. Please do not post raw links without including the headline or page title, or without quoting something relevant from the article's text.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

I've been seeing more of these stories about people being reinfected lately. This one about a woman who was first infected in march, took weeks to recover, and is now infected again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhyEBIpaIaM&t=934s

Is it reinfection, or could it be that the virus is able to "go into hiding" and re-emerge later, I wonder?

(The Peak Prosperity guy has some controversial opinions, such as that Hydroxychloroquine works, but is mostly sane, IMO!)

The video won't play but regardless, it sounds like it's going to be a single anecdotal report. Got any links to multiple cases?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

What happens to dead bodies normally? Is it possible for blood clots to form after death?

I'm pretty sure pathologists know the difference.

I've drawn blood on a cadaver a couple of times. You tend to get serum with a couple little clots but it's not because the blood is clotted, rather it's because the cells settle by gravity and the serum floats to the top. So I don't think your blood clots after death, without circulating blood to deliver clotting factors, you probably don't get clotting everywhere.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I think it's not so much the virus is in hiding, but viral particles hang around and look like a reinfection.

Not unusual for viruses to shed for a long time after the symptoms are gone. Norovirus can shed for weeks after clearing up.



I'm pretty sure that's not possible, and the reason deceased had such a level of clots is that it seems most severe cases have extreme clotting.

For clotting to happen in multiple locations like that it takes time. Some of the clotting factors would be used up and they'd have to be replaced.

DIC (disseminated intravascular clotting) is a critical condition where not only are there clots forming everywhere, clotting factors are used up and patients begin to have uncontrollable bleeding.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Bob001

A study finds evidence that the TB vaccine may enhance general immunity and reduce covid mortality.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...id=mailsignout

Also relevant:


Older people are less likely to have had those childhood vaccinations. I wonder if that could be a factor in the increased covid mortality associated with the elderly.

That's a stretch Bob even though the reporter writing the article claimed "some researchers" suggested it. On the one hand your are looking at BCG, a live vaccine that is not attenuated TB bacillus, and comparing it to MMR vaccine which is attenuated MMR viruses and polio vaccine which in older people could have been given as a killed vaccine or they may have had natural infection. Some younger people have had the attenuated live polio vaccine and some have had the killed vaccine.

Here's the direct link to the study.

[The Atheist]

More on transmission routes.

I'd be surprised if some very valuable data isn't being lost from countries that have little or no community transmission of Covid.

Today's a very good example, from NZ. Of all the quarantined cases (25) found, only two have been infected by someone in quarantine. In both cases, they are spouse/partner of the infected party. Both were infected by pre-symptomatic people.

The quarantine system here is ok, but far from perfect. Lots of shared spaces, air-conditioned, and communal areas. Guests are masked and asked to stay 2m apart, but they will be still in close proximity on lots of occasions. No staff have yet contracted the virus.

In Australia, it looks like the current outbreak has been caused by one security guard, who happened to be bonking one of the infected guests.

It certainly seems that mask/distancing works, and I'd be keen to see someone do some serious analysis of data from all the countries which don't have community transmission - the quarantine facilities should be regarded as superior experiments in infection routes.

[casebro]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

More on transmission routes.

I'd be surprised if some very valuable data isn't being lost from countries that have little or no community transmission of Covid.

Today's a very good example, from NZ. Of all the quarantined cases (25) found, only two have been infected by someone in quarantine. In both cases, they are spouse/partner of the infected party. Both were infected by pre-symptomatic people.

The quarantine system here is ok, but far from perfect. Lots of shared spaces, air-conditioned, and communal areas. Guests are masked and asked to stay 2m apart, but they will be still in close proximity on lots of occasions. No staff have yet contracted the virus.

In Australia, it looks like the current outbreak has been caused by one security guard, who happened to be bonking one of the infected guests.

It certainly seems that mask/distancing works, and I'd be keen to see someone do some serious analysis of data from all the countries which don't have community transmission - the quarantine facilities should be regarded as superior experiments in infection routes.

Do we know how the other 23 got it except "not from quarantined patients"? How many from shopping cart handles? Or out door socializing?

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I had my blood taken for an antibody test 2 weeks ago, but haven't got the results back yet.

Originally Posted by Max_mang

That seems strange. Both the antibody test I had at a county run testing site and the antibody tests my girlfriends' employer purchased take less than 20 mins.

Max_mang

All our blood testing goes 300 km away.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Joe Random

Hope you don't mind me using your post as a jumping-off point for a question I've had regarding surfaces. I have zero background in the whole virology thing so excuse the ignorance of the following.

Let's say we have an infected surface like a door handle used by several people. I touch the handle and get nasty stuff on my hands, but I don't touch anything else with that hand until I properly clean it (soap+water/sanitizer/whatever). I and others do this several times per day - touch an infected surface, but properly clean up before touching anything else.

Does the level of the virus go down each time it gets touched? Meaning, does it becomes 'less dangerous/infectious/whatever' as it gets touched by multiple people? And if so is that to any level which makes an appreciable difference? Or is it only time and/or direct cleaning which has an actual impact on that?

The amount of mucous on your hand reduces as you leave it in places.

Also, the transmission rate depends on the surface and when it's touched.

In March, there were about 8 studies being done on COVID-19 contact transmission.

Before that, we knew that SARS-2 could survive on plastic and metal surfaces for up to 9 days. It's the closest virus we knew to COVID-19, and that's how I think I caught COVID-19 back in March - touching metal taps and water fountains in public places while on a run.

There would be more studies now on COVID-19 contact transmission, but I've yet to see anything concluded.

[Orphia Nay]

Victorian healthcare workers among hundreds of new coronavirus cases [ABC News]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-...fears/12447024

"Victoria's Chief Health Officer has expressed concern about hospital workers, who he has called the "last line of defence", being among Victoria's rising coronavirus case numbers.

"His comments came as residents of public housing towers which were not part of last week's "hard lockdown" were reported as some of the 273 new coronavirus cases recorded in Victoria.

"Premier Daniel Andrews said a man in his 70s died overnight, taking the national coronavirus death toll to 108.

"There are now 57 Victorians with coronavirus in hospital, including 16 people in intensive care."


ICUs are the worst place to catch the virus, and that the floors are absolutely covered in it.

(Noting that 273 new cases isn't "hundreds" to me, but it's the headline of a serious story.)

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by casebro

Do we know how the other 23 got it except "not from quarantined patients"? How many from shopping cart handles? Or out door socializing?

They all contracted it prior to arrival.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

There would be more studies now on COVID-19 contact transmission, but I've yet to see anything concluded.

I've been banging this drum since February. I don't see any way contact transmission isn't occurring.

[The Atheist]

Meanwhile, some potentially terrible news on the term of immunity after infection: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...study-suggests

Quote:

Blood tests revealed that while 60% of people marshalled a “potent” antibody response at the height of their battle with the virus, only 17% retained the same potency three months later.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

The quarantine system here is ok, but far from perfect. Lots of shared spaces, air-conditioned, and communal areas. Guests are masked and asked to stay 2m apart, but they will be still in close proximity on lots of occasions. No staff have yet contracted the virus.

I'm surprised to hear about guests. Guests aren't downright banned at Danish self-isolation hotels, but they strongly advise against having visitors while in quarantine: Information om frivilligt isolationsophold uden for hjemmet til dig, som er smittet med ny coronavirus (SSI, June 12, 2020)

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dann

I'm surprised to hear about guests.

My mistake - I was using the term to describe the people in quarantine. They're not inmates and the tab is being up by the government, so "guests" seems like an apt description.

They are definitely not allowed to have guests.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Meanwhile, some potentially terrible news on the term of immunity after infection: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...study-suggests

The only way to prove that though would be people who have recovered from the virus 3+ months ago work in a hospital without protection looking after people with the virus. But that sort of experiment would never get past an ethics committee.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by rjh01

The only way to prove that though would be people who have recovered from the virus 3+ months ago work in a hospital without protection looking after people with the virus.

I’d be very surprised if that were the only way.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I’d be very surprised if that were the only way.

I did think of another way. Just compare the number of new infections of people who have had the virus with those that have not. Trouble is that might take a year or more. And you need to allow the virus to spread freely among the population. And that is even worse. No sane and intelligent leader would allow that to happen, let alone an ethics committee. There are ways of beating the disease, just look at New Zealand and Australia. Both would have eliminated the virus if they had not allowed people into the country under any conditions.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Meanwhile, some potentially terrible news on the term of immunity after infection: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...study-suggests

I don't understand the significance of this. As I understand it, immunity due to a vaccine or previous infection doesn't mean you have a high level of antibodies for, say, measles constantly circulating in your blood. It means you have low levels of them and your immune system is primed to rapidly make more.

So I don't know if the level of circulating antibodies means very much. You'd have to test how strongly a previously infected person's immune system responds to the virus (which would be an unethically dangerous experiment at this stage) or to an agent that simulates the virus to provoke the same response (which would be a working vaccine).

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Meanwhile, some potentially terrible news on the term of immunity after infection: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...study-suggests

Originally Posted by Myriad

I don't understand the significance of this. As I understand it, immunity due to a vaccine or previous infection doesn't mean you have a high level of antibodies for, say, measles constantly circulating in your blood. It means you have low levels of them and your immune system is primed to rapidly make more.

So I don't know if the level of circulating antibodies means very much. You'd have to test how strongly a previously infected person's immune system responds to the virus (which would be an unethically dangerous experiment at this stage) or to an agent that simulates the virus to provoke the same response (which would be a working vaccine).

The article also says:

"But Prof Arne Akbar, an immunologist at UCL, said antibodies are only part of the story. There is growing evidence, he said, that T cells produced to fight common colds can protect people as well. Those patients who fight the virus with T cells may not need to churn out high levels of antibodies, he added."

"[Prof Robin Shattock of Imperial College London] added: “We would [..] expect that re-infection would be less severe for any individual as they will still retain immune memory allowing them to more rapidly respond. Nevertheless they could still be a source of onward transmission."

[The Atheist]

Appears to be definite evidence of asymptomatic transmission here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...person-cluster

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

There is growing evidence, he said, that T cells produced to fight common colds can protect people as well.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting, because it ties in with a position from months back that the reason the elderly might be more likely to die while kids get nothing, is down to having had a cold more recently.

Needs more work.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

"[Prof Robin Shattock of Imperial College London] added: “We would [..] expect that re-infection would be less severe for any individual as they will still retain immune memory allowing them to more rapidly respond. Nevertheless they could still be a source of onward transmission."

I'm not sure whether that "expect" in the first sentence shouldn't be "hope". Definitely speculative, because it doesn't work that way for at least some other ssRNA viruses.

[marting]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

I fixed the link for you. Please see The campaign for good linking. Please do not post raw links without including the headline or page title, or without quoting something relevant from the article's text.

When I click on the link you provided it says I don't have sufficient permission to view it. Strange.