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Old 5th November 2019, 04:17 AM   #281
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Huh? Do you have a link for that?
A link for what exactly?
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Old 5th November 2019, 04:23 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I missed that proposed rule change, too.
Oh a link for that. It was a discussion in one of the threads in one of the "meta-forums" - I'd have to go look for it and see if I can find it again.
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Old 5th November 2019, 04:27 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you aware that people's existence (but only on the forum, of course) is ended all the time, temporarily or permanently? And are you aware that on the forum makes a hell of a difference?
Yes I am very well aware of that, as you can see by me asking for evidence for these claims of luchog always having to assert the right to exist here:

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
luchog's right to exist on this forum is tied up with the account on the forum's software, where it is the mods/admins who have the power to deny someone's "right to exist" on this forum by, for example, suspending or banning the account. Can you give some examples where luchog, or indeed anyone else, has had to assert their right to exist (ie appeal to a suspension or ban of their account) on this forum because of being targeted by extreme rightwingers?
Surely if these claims have some basis in fact then it should be easy to point out the times luchog was suspended/banned "simply for being transgender" as well as point out the times luchog had to appeal those decisions ("assert the right to exist")...
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Old 5th November 2019, 04:49 AM   #284
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Oh a link for that. It was a discussion in one of the threads in one of the "meta-forums" - I'd have to go look for it and see if I can find it again.
Turns out I misremembered the details. The rule change being advocated was the banning of what the proponents called hate speech in general and not just what proponents call transphobia, and it wasn't luchog who promoted the rule change. But, as demonstrated in this thread, plenty of people argue that even the mere assertion that transwomen are not women constitutes transphobia it would seem to be included.
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Old 5th November 2019, 05:03 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you aware that people's existence (but only on the forum, of course) is ended all the time, temporarily or permanently? And are you aware that on the forum makes a hell of a difference?
Since nobody is suggesting that trans people shouldn't exist, there's no actual difference, no.
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Old 5th November 2019, 06:14 AM   #286
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When someone cries wolf, but there is no wolf, that's a disservice to situations when there actually are wolves. Worse yet is accusing sheep (or a more dignified animal if you prefer) of being wolves.
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Old 5th November 2019, 06:18 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
When someone cries wolf, but there is no wolf, that's a disservice to situations when there actually are wolves. Worse yet is accusing sheep (or a more dignified animal if you prefer) of being wolves.
I call it "crying dragon". There's a wolf alright, but you call it a dragon. And nobody believes you, and the wolf eats you and the sheep.

In other words, when you're right, you don't need to make stuff up to prop up your case.
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Old 5th November 2019, 07:28 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you aware that people's existence (but only on the forum, of course) is ended all the time, temporarily or permanently? And are you aware that on the forum makes a hell of a difference?

I know I should be peeved at watching lie after lie from the conservatrolls pile up like that, but right now I can't find it anything but hilarious. It's like watching a particularly awful standup comic completely bombing, while being entirely oblivious to the audience reaction.
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:14 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
To my eyes this is willful misinterpretation/debate by wordplay. At least three concepts are being conflated. I believe Luchog mostly was speaking colloquially along the lines of “it’s tiring to have to keep going back to square one of defending a group’s basic human dignity” and then getting pooh-poohed for not wanting to engage in ‘show me where they impugned your dignity’ which look, I know you mean it seriously, Belz... but the playing field is so gross that a lot of people just don’t want to go on it anymore.
My main point of contention here is that argument X is not argument Y, nor does it lead to it. Luchog has not made a logical connection between the two but insists that it's there and that I'm ignoring it.
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:33 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
To my eyes this is willful misinterpretation/debate by wordplay. At least three concepts are being conflated. I believe Luchog mostly was speaking colloquially along the lines of “it’s tiring to have to keep going back to square one of defending a group’s basic human dignity” and then getting pooh-poohed for not wanting to engage in ‘show me where they impugned your dignity’ which look, I know you mean it seriously, Belz... but the playing field is so gross that a lot of people just don’t want to go on it anymore.
Having your every claim believed without question is not a basic human dignity.
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:41 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I call it "crying dragon". There's a wolf alright, but you call it a dragon. And nobody believes you, and the wolf eats you and the sheep.

In other words, when you're right, you don't need to make stuff up to prop up your case.
Seems like a general thing in society nowadays, especially the internet. Its actually a pretty good analogy, up till now I've been saying everything is dialed up to 11 but I think I may steel your dragon analogy.
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Old 5th November 2019, 07:41 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The whole "transwomen are women" vs "transwomen are not women" argument is more of a semantic debate than anything else.

Believing that the definition of the word "woman" is "an adult human female" has literally nothing in common with people believing transpeople should have to undergo involuntary treatments, that Jews are evil, black people brutes, Mexicans are rapists, etc.
First, I said it was a (rather obvious) jump from "trans women are mentally ill/not women" to "should be subjected to treatments/killed/etc." If you don't see how, I can only point to history books.

Second, the are obvious analogies because, again, bigotries tend to come in packs. I wasn't at all shocked when Toupee Fiasco jumped from "Obama can't possibly be intelligent or a real American" to "Mexicans are raping our women" to "Here's a photo of Hillary next to a star of david and a pile of money" to "Trans people are now banned from the military". It's also why I included Richard Spencer's rant - of course he'd end up screaming about how he's superior to "kikes" and "octaroons", anyone who gave him a softball interview on tv messed up.

Nor am I even slightly surprised that the threads Luchog linked are full of people who I have previously put on ignore for overt racism. And I wouldn't be slightly surprised if they were running around trying to justify anti-trans violence using stereotypes and basic bigotry, since they've all repeatedly used stereotypes to justify racist actions up to and including murder. Whether these folks are actively looking for recruits, or just the recruited, makes little difference to me, but it likely does effect how anyone who wishes to interact with them should go about it.

Quote:
But some of these issues cis women are having with trans women are very real, and not just cis women behaving irrationally, like traswomen in women's sports, women's prisons, etc. You can't just handwave all that away by accusing everyone who see the problems of being some sort of nazi-in-progress.
Yes, and I've seen some who actually are questioning things (which is fine, we're all ignorant on most matters), and discussing actual research.

Those aren't the folks under discussion.

Quote:
When you try to superimpose everything about race onto gender/sex, it doesn't "fit". It doesn't work as a model. They share some similarities, but they have some very real differences, too.
I've found it works quite well enough, for reasons stated above.
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Old 5th November 2019, 08:54 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
First, I said it was a (rather obvious) jump from "trans women are mentally ill/not women" to "should be subjected to treatments/killed/etc." If you don't see how, I can only point to history books.

Second, the are obvious analogies because, again, bigotries tend to come in packs.
I agree that bigotries come in packs, but is it bigotry to say a "woman" is "an adult human female"?

What is the definition of woman?
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:05 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Seems like a general thing in society nowadays, especially the internet. Its actually a pretty good analogy, up till now I've been saying everything is dialed up to 11 but I think I may steel your dragon analogy.
Be my guest.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:58 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Seems like a general thing in society nowadays, especially the internet. Its actually a pretty good analogy, up till now I've been saying everything is dialed up to 11 but I think I may steel your dragon analogy.
Be my guest.

"Steel Dragon" would be a good name for a rock band.

Maybe even a neo-Nazi rock band.
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:00 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Steel Dragon" would be a good name for a rock band.

Maybe even a neo-Nazi rock band.
So would "crying dragon".
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:17 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Steel Dragon" would be a good name for a rock band.



Maybe even a neo-Nazi rock band.


It was the name of the band in the movie “Rock Star.”
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Old 6th November 2019, 08:25 AM   #298
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I don’t object to the folks whose position is essentially “this is what the word means and you are trying to mess it up arrrrgh, but yeah I won’t deadname people to their face at work. Also sport is a problem, no sport benefits when dominated by a small subgroup of participants. And some other stuff.”

But those who go “Well, I used to think it was all just people trying to live their best lives and I was willing to give them a lot of leeway, but then I realized the movement is chockablock with vile bullying misogynists who just want to dominate all womens’ spaces and people like this guy who wants to steal teenage girls’ used tampons, also look at this photo of a healing donor tissue site, eeeew!!!! Somebody did that to an innocent girl on purpose! Nobody can think this is OK, can they??”

When people get fed up with the thread, let’s not act like people feel done dirty by argument a rather than argument b.
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