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Old 5th November 2019, 10:06 AM   #41
timhau
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It came off more mean than I interned but my first experience with people actually taking DUI laws seriously was in East Berlin.
I thought you must have spent time here.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:59 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
In general I agree, but there is a counterintuitive factoid from Finland that was published a couple of years ago. There was a large national study of all traffic fatalities in the country during a 3 or 4 year period. One surprising fact was that while the data (of ca. 250 fatalities per year) contains a high number of lethal accidents with legally drunk (over - usually quite a bit over - the legal limit of. 05 % BAC) and many where everone was sober, the research period had zero fatal accidents involving drivers with non-zero but still legal blood alcohol levels.
This is too little data to draw any conclusions from.

You need to know the following first:

1. How many drivers drive while intoxicated, but below legal limit? How common is it for Finns to drive with a legal blood alcohol limit at all? I suspect most drive sober and a relevant number don't care how much they drunk before driving. The pool of those who might have a legal blood alcohol content could be tiny in the first place.

2. Do drivers from the previous point consider the distance they have to drive as well? The shorter the ride, the less chance there is for accidents to happen. If responsible drivers who still drink some alcohol take care to only drive if the risk is low, this further diminishes the pool of possible accidents. Sober drivers take all sorts of drives and irresponsible drunken drivers probably don't take that into account either, or at least not as much as sober drivers do.

3. Same as 2, but consider the care taken while driving.

I suspect point 1. alone would already explain why fatal accidents where one driver was intoxicated but not over the legal limit is not unexpected.

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Old 6th November 2019, 11:27 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
I thought you must have spent time here.
No, but I do have Swedish friends.
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:17 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is too little data to draw any conclusions from.

You need to know the following first:

1. How many drivers drive while intoxicated, but below legal limit? How common is it for Finns to drive with a legal blood alcohol limit at all? I suspect most drive sober and a relevant number don't care how much they drunk before driving. The pool of those who might have a legal blood alcohol content could be tiny in the first place.
Assuming by "intoxicated" you mean "after drinking alcohol," a lot of people. Anyone who has a glass or two of wine or a beer at dinner. Most people would not be impaired at that point, but they would have a breath alcohol content that is not zero. I'm not sure I would use the term "intoxicated."

Also, lots of people who go to bars and do not over-indulge:
Quote:
For a person who weighs 100 lbs., it will take about three drinks an hour to reach a .08 BAC.
At 140 lbs., it takes about four drinks an hour to reach a .08 BAC.
At 180 lbs it takes about five drinks an hour to reach a .08 BAC.
At about 220 lbs it takes around six drinks an hour to reach a .08 BAC.
https://www.ignitioninterlockhelp.co...-reach-08-bac/
If this is accurate at all, it seems like you can drink quite a bit over the course of a couple hours and not be over the legal limit.


Quote:
I suspect point 1. alone would already explain why fatal accidents where one driver was intoxicated but not over the legal limit is not unexpected.
As I recall, if any party has had anything to drink, an accident gets classified as "alcohol related" regardless of amount or which party is at fault.
Quote:
This statistic includes any and all vehicular (including bicycle and motorcycle) accidents in which any alcohol has been consumed, or believed to have been consumed, by the driver, a passenger or a pedestrian associated with the accident. Thus, if a person who has consumed alcohol and has stopped for a red light is rear-ended by a completely sober but inattentive driver, the accident is listed as alcohol-related, although alcohol had nothing to do with causing the accident. Furthermore, if a sober motorist hits a drunk pedestrian, the accident is also listed as alcohol-related. Alcohol-related accidents are often mistakenly confused with alcohol-caused accidents. Some[3] have criticized the NHTSA for compiling this statistic since it may give the impression that drunk drivers cause a much higher percentage of accidents and does not accurately reflect the problem of drunk driving in the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoho..._United_States
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:22 PM   #45
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When I got my DUI in 2003, I was probably about 150 lbs. I drank 5 coronas (a bucket) and did two shots. Probably over the course of an hour and a half or so. I blew a .18, so I'm not sure how accurate that is, Tom.

Also, I was 21 so if tolerance is a real thing, I had none back then. Obviously no sense either, why the hell I thought I was okay to drive is beyond me.
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Neither of these statements is wrong. However, this has more has to do with when those who were drinking and didn't think they were legally drunk decided they must have been and were legally cooked because science.

That is pretty common. I'd add that it is more science + lack of resources and time to drag it through a jury trial they may lose anyway + tolerable plea offer.
I'm a rule of law kind of guy, but I have close to zero tolerance for driving under the influence.

If you've been drinking enough that an over-the-limit breathalyzer result seems plausible to you and not worth fighting, then I have no sympathy.

That said, your lawyer should probably be telling you, "you were only a little bit drunk, not too drunk, and you should fight the breathalyzer in court."
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:49 PM   #47
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I also have zero tolerance for driving under the influence.
Let's be honest; the whole idea is to get people driving under the influence off the road;I suspect there are quite a few situations where, in the morning, the individual arrested is let off with a warning, and not prosecuted.
A messy solution, but probably the best one avaible.
Unless you are Libertarain who thinks all drunk driving laws should be repealed and you have a right to drive drunk until you actually hit somebody. Crap like this is why my flirtation with Libertarianism was brief.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
When I got my DUI in 2003, I was probably about 150 lbs. I drank 5 coronas (a bucket) and did two shots. Probably over the course of an hour and a half or so. I blew a .18, so I'm not sure how accurate that is, Tom.

Also, I was 21 so if tolerance is a real thing, I had none back then. Obviously no sense either, why the hell I thought I was okay to drive is beyond me.
Given your story, I would say .18 sounds very credible.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:47 PM   #49
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Related Auto Brewery Syndrome. People who have not drunk alcohol, but make it in their bodies anyway:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...nphk9iKZgJqDkU
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Related Auto Brewery Syndrome. People who have not drunk alcohol, but make it in their bodies anyway:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...nphk9iKZgJqDkU
Not sure how that's related. ABS doesn't cause false positives. It causes true positives, just every other source of alcohol in the bloodstream. The only question is whether ABS sufferers should receive the same sanctions as intentional drinkers.

But the ABS sufferer isn't going to argue the breathalyzer in court on the grounds that it was inaccurate. They're going to argue on the grounds that their intoxication was natural and unintentional.
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Old 6th November 2019, 03:33 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
When I got my DUI in 2003, I was probably about 150 lbs. I drank 5 coronas (a bucket) and did two shots. Probably over the course of an hour and a half or so. I blew a .18, so I'm not sure how accurate that is, Tom.

Also, I was 21 so if tolerance is a real thing, I had none back then. Obviously no sense either, why the hell I thought I was okay to drive is beyond me.
Two honest questions, no gotchas here, if you're willing.

1) If you had a vehicle with a pre-installed ignition interlock device (as brought up in a different thread) would you have tried to defeat it or work around it or would you have known you couldn't start the car and not driven?

2) If you had the ability to call a free or subsidized taxt / Uber would you have taken advantage of that in lieu of driving?
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Old 6th November 2019, 06:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Related Auto Brewery Syndrome. People who have not drunk alcohol, but make it in their bodies anyway:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...nphk9iKZgJqDkU

I actually knew a guy who had that. He was diabetic, so it was effectively chronic, and he had to be even more careful about his diet than other diabetics.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:00 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Given your story, I would say .18 sounds very credible.
I wasn't referring to the breathalyzer being accurate, I have no doubt it was. I was referring to the guidelines McHronzi laid out.

Make no mistake, I screwed up, and I'll own that until the day I die. I'm just thankful I didn't get anyone hurt or killed.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Two honest questions, no gotchas here, if you're willing.

1) If you had a vehicle with a pre-installed ignition interlock device (as brought up in a different thread) would you have tried to defeat it or work around it or would you have known you couldn't start the car and not driven?

2) If you had the ability to call a free or subsidized taxt / Uber would you have taken advantage of that in lieu of driving?
1) In all honesty, it was 16 years ago and I was a dumb, drunk 21 year old full of bravado. I can't answer that question honestly. I'd like to think I'd have been smart enough to not try to start my car. But then again I'd like to think I was smart enough to know better than to drive in the first place, and we see how that ended up.

2. I think I actually mentioned in that other thread that I'm a big proponent of Uber, I use it all the time. Had Uber been around then, and had I had a smarthphone with an app, I probably would have used it. Back then, taxis were utter bollocks around here. It was technically an option, but you'd often get stood up or get stuck waiting for an hour or more. And yes, that's still a better option that driving drunk. That being said, see #1, it's hard for me to gauge my thinking back then.
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Old 6th November 2019, 10:53 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
When I got my DUI in 2003, I was probably about 150 lbs. I drank 5 coronas (a bucket) and did two shots. Probably over the course of an hour and a half or so. I blew a .18, so I'm not sure how accurate that is, Tom.

Also, I was 21 so if tolerance is a real thing, I had none back then. Obviously no sense either, why the hell I thought I was okay to drive is beyond me.
So you had 7 drinks (two of them hard) over the course of an hour and a half? That seems fairly consistent with that scale, actually.

My point is not that it's ok to drink and drive. I was addressing McHronzi's question about how common it is to drive with a BAC inder .08 but greater than zero. The point is that one or two bud lights does not generally bring someone to the legal limit. It is very common for people to have a couple drinks at dinner, or even at the bar after work and drive home under the .08 limit. So it's not a vanishingly small pool of drivers. The low rate of accidents compared to those who both have and haven't been drinking is likely because people in this range are not impaired, but take more care than they would when they haven't been drinking.

Most Fridays, I meet a group of friends at a local brewery. We sit and talk and have one to two beers over a couple hours. No one in our group leaves intoxicated or even buzzed. I'm positive we would all pass a breathalyzer.

Your .18 was pretty drunk. I probably would have tested similarly in college, but I was walking everywhere then. (If you had a car on campus you didn't drive it often. Mine was parked in a lot about a mile from the dorm.) Situations where driving was required always meant limiting drinking for the driver. But the group I hung around with was relatively responsible.
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Old 7th November 2019, 12:20 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Assuming by "intoxicated" you mean "after drinking alcohol," a lot of people. Anyone who has a glass or two of wine or a beer at dinner. Most people would not be impaired at that point, but they would have a breath alcohol content that is not zero. I'm not sure I would use the term "intoxicated."
Actually, no. If you have a glass or two of wine or a beer at diner, your blood alcohol content will be close to zero in 2-4 hours, depending on your size, health and whether it was one glass or two (or else a large or a small beer).

Quote:
If this is accurate at all, it seems like you can drink quite a bit over the course of a couple hours and not be over the legal limit.
As a rule of thumb, the metabolic rate in a healthy liver will be 0.015% blood alcohol per hour. If you're at the legal limit of 0.05% your liver will get that to zero in just over three hours. The legal limit for an average male is equal to approximately one large beer, but alcohol is not immediately absorbed by the body and some will be exreceted through kidneys as well. The recommendations come with a significant safety margin too.

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Old 7th November 2019, 02:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The legal limit for an average male is equal to approximately one large beer, but alcohol is not immediately absorbed by the body and some will be exreceted through kidneys as well. The recommendations come with a significant safety margin too.
What is an "average male"? I think the figure they use here is 70 kg (ca. 150 lbs), which sound like a lowball estimate for the weight of an average adult male (I'd be about 1,6 "average males" myself).
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Old 7th November 2019, 04:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
What is an "average male"? I think the figure they use here is 70 kg (ca. 150 lbs), which sound like a lowball estimate for the weight of an average adult male (I'd be about 1,6 "average males" myself).
It is, a below-average male is used to run the estimate to get some extra safety padding. IIRC 500 mL of 4% beer over 70 kg, spread evenly throughout the body, comes to just over the legal blood alcohol level (0.05%), I happen to remember this having this as a test question a decade ago or so and this was the result. However you need to account for the fact "spread evenly throughout the body" is patently false so you call a 70 kg male an "average male" to make it less likely people will drive while impaired by alcohol.

There are more errors on the side of safety too: the alcohol is not absorbed instantly, metabolism begins immediately, there is also non-trivial amount excretion through kidneys and so on. These factors are not accounted for multiple reasons, the chief among them being it's safer to make people think more than one beer will be too many and stick to one beer or none at all if they're going to drive afterwards.

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