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Tags China issues , US-China relations

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Old 10th October 2019, 01:23 PM   #1
3point14
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We've Normalised China

We do business with the Chinese government to make money.

This is a photo I'd never seen before taken in June of 1989 in Tiananmen Square. A disturbing image. You have been warned.

https://i.redd.it/mbn5z9cr5qr31.jpg


This is a heartbreaking documentary made in 2005:

https://vimeo.com/44078865

When, on the anniversary of the massacre, a journalist asks people if they know what day it is. If you've never seen people living in fear, then watch this.


My question is, is morality dead? Are western, apparently civilised democries now so overcome with the desire for cheaper everything and more profit that they are now incapable of international action and only capable of taking the path of most profit? Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded in the international economy that we can only shrug our shoulders at government sponsored murder and violence against their own and other peoples that we can only shrug and go back to playing WoW or Overwatch?
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:17 PM   #2
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China hasn't normalized itself, which is one of the reasons why it hates being labeled by outsiders.
Most terrible policies are attempts at forcing social unity in the knowledge that it will be a constant battle that they will eventually lose.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:24 PM   #3
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China's been normalized all along. Remember the Great Leap Forward? The Cultural Revolution? The Korean War? The secession of Taiwan?

China didn't suddenly turn evil three years ago, and now we've normalized it. China has *always* been this way, and the rest of the world has pretty much always looked for ways to go along to get along with China. Hell, even the Tiananmen Square massacre was recognized for what it was at the time. We didn't let that stop us from trying to keep things cordial, though.

Last edited by theprestige; 10th October 2019 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:05 PM   #4
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The problem is that some people naively thought that China becoming mercantilist would make it become a free market, rights respecting, democracy. And so it received most favored nation trading status etc.

As evidence mounted that it was not liberalizing, but instead becoming a mixture of nationalism, totalitarian and corporatism (I.e. the next world power is pure fascism) a lot of our corporations and politicians have too much at stake in business as usual to stand up to it.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:21 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The problem is that some people naively thought that China becoming mercantilist would make it become a free market, rights respecting, democracy. And so it received most favored nation trading status etc.

As evidence mounted that it was not liberalizing, but instead becoming a mixture of nationalism, totalitarian and corporatism (I.e. the next world power is pure fascism) a lot of our corporations and politicians have too much at stake in business as usual to stand up to it.
But Milton Friedman said...
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The problem is that some people naively thought that China becoming mercantilist would make it become a free market, rights respecting, democracy. And so it received most favored nation trading status etc.

As evidence mounted that it was not liberalizing, but instead becoming a mixture of nationalism, totalitarian and corporatism (I.e. the next world power is pure fascism) a lot of our corporations and politicians have too much at stake in business as usual to stand up to it.
It's the Aspirational Peace Prize thing. We want them to behave better, so we reward them for behaving better, on the theory that this will encourage them to earn the reward already given. Then when that doesn't work, we blame the people who said it wouldn't work. Probably the best case study for this is North Korea, which has evolved a sophisticated multi-generational grift around aggressively cycling this dynamic.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
We do business with the Chinese government to make money.

This is a photo I'd never seen before taken in June of 1989 in Tiananmen Square. A disturbing image. You have been warned.

https://i.redd.it/mbn5z9cr5qr31.jpg


This is a heartbreaking documentary made in 2005:

https://vimeo.com/44078865

When, on the anniversary of the massacre, a journalist asks people if they know what day it is. If you've never seen people living in fear, then watch this.


My question is, is morality dead? Are western, apparently civilised democries now so overcome with the desire for cheaper everything and more profit that they are now incapable of international action and only capable of taking the path of most profit? Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded in the international economy that we can only shrug our shoulders at government sponsored murder and violence against their own and other peoples that we can only shrug and go back to playing WoW or Overwatch?
Yes.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:33 PM   #8
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Singling out China for atrocious events against people is quite pointed.
Especially when nearly every place on earth has a bit of it in their own history. Some is recent memory and a lot of it ancient but it happened.

If not for global trade a good portion of the lifestyle of everyone would be completely different. China is a part of that as a major player, but not the only one.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Singling out China for atrocious events against people is quite pointed.
Especially when nearly every place on earth has a bit of it in their own history. Some is recent memory and a lot of it ancient but it happened.

If not for global trade a good portion of the lifestyle of everyone would be completely different. China is a part of that as a major player, but not the only one.

Is it poor form to quote myself? I'm going to do it anyway.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded...
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:35 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
We do business with the Chinese government to make money.

This is a photo I'd never seen before taken in June of 1989 in Tiananmen Square. A disturbing image. You have been warned.

https://i.redd.it/mbn5z9cr5qr31.jpg


This is a heartbreaking documentary made in 2005:

https://vimeo.com/44078865

When, on the anniversary of the massacre, a journalist asks people if they know what day it is. If you've never seen people living in fear, then watch this.


My question is, is morality dead? Are western, apparently civilised democries now so overcome with the desire for cheaper everything and more profit that they are now incapable of international action and only capable of taking the path of most profit? Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded in the international economy that we can only shrug our shoulders at government sponsored murder and violence against their own and other peoples that we can only shrug and go back to playing WoW or Overwatch?
Well, the wannabe liberals and the left in general has been a supporter of national soverignty and non-intervention. "It's an internal Chinese matter, let them sort it out".

At least that's how it works with Iran, Iraq and many others. "Leave them alone, it's an internal matter" is the typical mantra. But to do so with China is now morally depraved?

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Old 11th October 2019, 05:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Is it poor form to quote myself? I'm going to do it anyway.
The answer is yes, China, the USA, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Canada, Australia, etc etc are indeed embedded in the international economy.
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Old 16th October 2019, 12:47 AM   #12
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Just a well noted reddit post that'll scare the willies out of ya.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone..._this/f3t6nka/
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Just a well noted reddit post that'll scare the willies out of ya.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone..._this/f3t6nka/
I'll just address this part:

And just a thought, how many countries have China invaded ever?

PRC:
- Tibet, 1950
- South Korea, 1950
- Taiwan, 1954, 1958 (naval standoff only)
- Tibet, 1958
- Burma, 1960
- India, 1962
- Vietnam (active assistance only) 1965
- India, 1967
- Soviet Union, 1969 (border clashes only)
- South Vietnam, 1974 (Parcel islands)
- Vietnam (now unified), 1979
- Vietnam, 1979 (second attempt)
- Taiwan, 1996 (naval standoff only due to US intervention)
- Vietnam, Malaysia, Philliphines, 2012 (Spratley islands only)

For a country priding themselves on peace and noninvolvement they seem to rank rather highly. It's a pity too few people ever seek to verify their claims.

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Old 20th October 2019, 06:42 PM   #14
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Since we're posting links, the PBS Frontline documentary "The Tank Man" is very well done, too.
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Old 20th October 2019, 07:17 PM   #15
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I've spent time in China six times now. It's way more interesting than ISF.
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Old 20th October 2019, 08:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
I've spent time in China six times now. It's way more interesting than ISF.
Isnít that, morally, a bit like saying ďIíve spent time in apartheid South Africa six times. Itís way more interesting than ISF.Ē ?
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Old 20th October 2019, 09:09 PM   #17
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Like it or not (and a lot of people seem to not like it) China is there and isn't going any where and is a massive trading outlet.

Might as well try to get on, while hopefully having a bit of influence on their policys

The US criticising them for starting wars is also quite humorous
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Old 21st October 2019, 06:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'll just address this part:

And just a thought, how many countries have China invaded ever?

PRC:
- Tibet, 1950
- South Korea, 1950
- Taiwan, 1954, 1958 (naval standoff only)
- Tibet, 1958
- Burma, 1960
- India, 1962
- Vietnam (active assistance only) 1965
- India, 1967
- Soviet Union, 1969 (border clashes only)
- South Vietnam, 1974 (Parcel islands)
- Vietnam (now unified), 1979
- Vietnam, 1979 (second attempt)
- Taiwan, 1996 (naval standoff only due to US intervention)
- Vietnam, Malaysia, Philliphines, 2012 (Spratley islands only)

For a country priding themselves on peace and noninvolvement they seem to rank rather highly. It's a pity too few people ever seek to verify their claims.

McHrozni

The whole "China has never invaded another country" myth does not bear close examination.
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Old 21st October 2019, 07:04 PM   #19
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But...but...the United States has to fly to invade other countries. That makes them bigger imperialists!
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Old 21st October 2019, 07:08 PM   #20
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Maybe Trump's machinations will make the Chinese allow their currency value to float on the world market. Change is coming. In 3,2,1,...
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:04 AM   #21
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HK students at Warwick had security come take down their protest after mainland Chinese students called it 'Racist'

https://theboar.org/2019/11/warwick-...nese-students/



Meanwhile Beijing commits the most outrageous atrocities and we don't care.


Still, money, eh?
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:09 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
HK students at Warwick had security come take down their protest after mainland Chinese students called it 'Racist'

https://theboar.org/2019/11/warwick-...nese-students/



Meanwhile Beijing commits the most outrageous atrocities and we don't care.


Still, money, eh?
Are you planning to actually talk to the other people participating in your thread, or is this one of those "we shouldn't talk to reactionaries" situations?

Have you considered posting your opinions about China on a blog? With comments disabled? Seems like it might be a more appropriate venue.
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:14 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you planning to actually talk to the other people participating in your thread, or is this one of those "we shouldn't talk to reactionaries" situations?

Have you considered posting your opinions about China on a blog? With comments disabled? Seems like it might be a more appropriate venue.

Oh, I'm sorry I'm not meeting your high standards of interaction and engagement.

Which particular comment would you like a response to?
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Old 8th November 2019, 11:29 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, I'm sorry I'm not meeting your high standards of interaction and engagement.

Which particular comment would you like a response to?
I'd be fine with any of them, really.
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:55 AM   #25
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Looks like a good place to ask for verification of this c&p form an emeail:

Quote:
Subject: IMF (international monetary fund) and Trump

The IMF is warning that "global economies" will contract by $455 billion next year due to the ongoing trade conflict between the U.S. , China , the EU and to a lesser extent, Japan .

President Trump will cost the "Global Economy" $455 billion.. because that money will be transferring back to the America First economy. That's what happens as MAGAnomics reverses the IMF trade (wealth distribution) model.

China and the EU have devalued their currency in an effort to block the impacts from President Trump and the ' America First' trade policy. Because those currencies are pegged against the dollar, the resulting effect is a rising dollar value. In essence, the globalist IMF is now blaming President Trump for having a strong economy that forces international competition to devalue their currency.

In the bigger picture is why President Trump is the most transformative economic President in the last 75 years. The post-WWII Marshall Plan was set up to allow Europe and Asia to place tariffs on exported American industrial products.

Those tariffs were used by the EU, China , & Japan to rebuild their infrastructure after a devastating war. However, there was never a built in mechanism to end the tariffs.. until President Trump came along and said: "it's over!"

After about 20 years (+/-), say 1970 to be fair, the EU and Japan received enough money to rebuild. But instead of ending the one-way payment system, Asia and the EU sought to keep going and build their economies larger than the U.S.

Additionally, the U.S. was carrying the cost of protecting the

EU (via NATO) and Japan with our military. The EU and Japan didn't need to spend a dime on defense because the U.S. essentially took over that role. But that military role, just like the tariffs, never ended. Again, until Trump.

The U.S. economy was the host for around 50 years of parasitic wealth exfiltration, or as most would say "distribution." The term *exfiltration* better highlights that American citizens paid higher prices for stuff and paid higher taxes within the overall economic scheme than was needed.

President Trump is the first and only President who said: "enough," and prior politicians who didn't stop the process were "stupid" etc. etc. Obviously, he is 100% correct.

For the past 30 years the U.S. was a sucker to keep letting the process remain in place while we lost our manufacturing base to overseas incentives. The investment process from Wall Street (removal of Glass-Stegal) only made the process much more severe and faster. Wall Street was now investing in companies whose best bet (higher profit return) was to pour money overseas. This process created the "Rust Belt," and damn near destroyed the aggregate manufacturing industry.

Unfortunately, putting 'America First' is now also against the interests of the multinationals on Wall Street, so President Trump has to fight adverse economic opponents on multiple fronts.. and their purchased mercenary army we know as DC politicians.

No one ever could take on all these interests. Think about it. The EU, Asia, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, China, Russia, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Iran, U.S. Congress, Democrats, U.S. Senate, Wall Street, the Big Club, Lobbyists, Hollywood, Corporate Media (foreign and domestic), and the ankle-biters in Never Trump.. All of these financial interests are aligned against Main Street USA and against President Trump.

Name one individual who could take them on simultaneously and still be winning!

They say he's one man. They say they have him outnumbered. Yet somehow, as unreal as it seems, he's the one who appears to have them surrounded..
Not so much the obvious bloviating, but has he really gotten China and EU to devalue their currency? Because I have often heard that the fact that China sets their own value, not letting it float on the world market, is what gives them an unfair advantage. It sounds to me like Trump has forced China to normalize themselves.
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