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Old 23rd June 2018, 06:49 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
The Glasgow householder filming the ned almost breaking into their home with them upstairs must have been relieved to see the cops arrive in the nick of time. I'll bet the householder doesn't care that they gave him a dead leg ["charley horse"?]. Neither do I.
You don't care, until a police officer is excessively forceful with you or someone you care about. Then I bet you would care, a lot.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 09:38 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This is the UK sleep walking into major problems whereby a 47 year old female police officer, who does not look like she could fight her way out of a wet paper bag, tazers a 64 year old man, who also does not look like he could do much in a fight.

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/05/1...relations-adv/

The the key part incident is in the video at 01.20, after a shoving match, which the police officers win as the male is unable to get through the gate he wants to go through. The police officer tazers him in the face.

She was charged with assault, but was found not guilty as the Judge stated;

"The issue for me is whether the prosecution have persuaded me that she didn't act in self-defence.
"The prosecution failed to persuade me and she is found not guilty of assault for that reason."

I do not see what she did as self defence. The two police officers were never at any threat. She tazers him because she wants no risk at all to her. She should not be in the police if she cannot deal with such a minor problem without resorting to the tazer.

At least she is still to face misconduct charges.
I agree. A police officer whether armed with a baton, taser or gun, must exercise self-control under the severest of provocation.
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Old 24th June 2018, 11:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In 15 yrs otj and doing training exchanges with other departments here and trips outside the U.S. doing training down south, I never encountered a LEO so fixated on non-lethal use-of-force while effecting an arrest than the op.

There is never an excuse for excessive force, but I've yet to meet anyone in LE and few members of the general public that questions the need to use force against an armed suspect that has used lethal force - the op is doing just that in another thread, essentially arguing that once the actor stops shooting there's no reason to use lethal force to stop the actor.

That's a position only a certain type of individual could possibly hold, and it sure isn't based in or on sound law enforcement or public policy - I can't imagine even the most progressive S.F. city legislator trying to sell the idea that if a shooter only kills 3 or 4 people in front of witnesses and stops shooting LE shouldn't use force - lethal or otherwise - to stop the shooter.
Yes, you illustrate, and perpetuate, exactly the problem. One, that non-violence isn't a "sound law enforcement or public policy" and two, that there exists a time when non-violence should never be contemplated.
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Old 25th June 2018, 03:57 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I believe that being engaged in breaking into a domicile with a crowbar rates at least one good (non-fatal) whack with whatever hard object is close to hand.

You are free to engage in whatever behavior is acceptable by local community standards where you serve, but I find no objection to striking an individual in the act of breaking and entering in the course of effecting an arrest.

You may wish to engage the poor soul in a lengthy philosophical discussion prior to taking them into custody, but most offenders caught in the act are more inclined to flee or fight than go along with the Mr. Rogers version of LE tactics you seem to be endorsing.
Last year I accidentally locked myself out of my house and had to effect an "unauthodox" entry to my own property. Doubtless I deserved at least one good (non-fatal) whack with whatever hard object was close to hand....
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Old 25th June 2018, 04:06 AM   #45
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Nessie takes questioning the use of force to extremes, but I cannot help but think that those people who we as a society sanction to use force against us should question when it is appropriate and use that authority with great caution. I may not always agree with Nessie but it reassures me to think that men and women with his commitment to reducing violence and protecting everybody's safety (so far as possible) patrol our streets.
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Old 25th June 2018, 04:50 AM   #46
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Interestingly I've just taken a look at the first video and (without sound on, which may change the context), it didn't look that extreme to me. Indeed it looked like an argument that had just turned physical and she took her first clear shot to disable.

The only bit 'off' about it was she seemed to have her tazer drawn very early in the conversation which I doubt helped de-escalate it.

So, certainly not brilliant, but hardly seems to warrant the scorn. Also, would be interesting to view without knowing the victim's innocence eg, say it turned out he was up to no good, had a knife in a pocket or whatever.

Yes they definitely could have handled it better but from her perspective, he'd just started grappling with her colleague and she took the opening.

It should also be noted that the victim also could have handled it much better.

As I say, no sound so may have missed context.
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:01 AM   #47
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On the second video, yes I think he could have been 'tackled' better but I note the baton seems to have been used to bring him to ground by hitting the backs of his legs - I had assumed from the comments, they'd hit him on the back of the head (I accept no-one said that, having just gone back to check, so my assumption is interesting!). If you are going to strike, the back of the legs seems a more considered, and less damaging approach...and if I was picking a weapon in a fight, I'd consider a crowbar more scary than a police baton.

I agree though, not the high standard we hold our police to...but a lot less worrying than things I've seen in other countries...or even other incidents in this country, so not sure I agree with the hyperbole in the thread.
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Old 25th June 2018, 05:03 AM   #48
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Oh and I'm far from being a police apologist - have had a few run-ins myself where I've had to bite my tongue when realising the officer was not going to budge from his completely erroneous position / assumptions...
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Old 25th June 2018, 10:01 AM   #49
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In the second video have the police actually ascertained that he is a burglar and not, say, trying to get into his own house after his wife locked him out for staying out for "just one more round"? I'm thinking of the recent US cases of "swatting" where police have taken on trust a callers report that a crime is in progress.
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Old 25th June 2018, 10:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
In the second video have the police actually ascertained that he is a burglar and not, say, trying to get into his own house after his wife locked him out for staying out for "just one more round"? I'm thinking of the recent US cases of "swatting" where police have taken on trust a callers report that a crime is in progress.
Closer to home -:http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7&postcount=44
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Old 25th June 2018, 12:21 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Nessie takes questioning the use of force to extremes, but I cannot help but think that those people who we as a society sanction to use force against us should question when it is appropriate and use that authority with great caution. I may not always agree with Nessie but it reassures me to think that men and women with his commitment to reducing violence and protecting everybody's safety (so far as possible) patrol our streets.
I had career of having to justify any use of force, whereby any use of force form had to be completed and submitted on all occasions; baton, cuffs (apart from standard cuffing a compliant prisoner), CS, fast straps or any open hand method of arrest or restraint was used. Use of force would be questioned in court and I wanted to be sure I could always justify myself.

I had a career where I spend most of my weekends outside night clubs waiting for fights and making plenty of arrest, many of which involved struggles and resist arrest. I never hurt anyone beyond minor cuts, scrapes and sore wrists from the cuffs.

One CCTV video I saw, showed a sergeant in the street waving his baton at a group of youths during a disturbance after the pubs had emptied. The CCTV then pans out to show an older cop just standing there, open hands, talking to another group of youths. One was pacifying the crowd whilst the other was going mad and making the disturbance worse. Needless to say the CCTV got deleted.

I talked a guy down, when he was armed with a knife, during a house siege, but when we went into the house, I was barged out the way by other police officers who then gave the male a doing, despite the fact he no longer had the knife and was calm.

I retired early because the situation was getting worse as the police recruited more and more weaklings who were more interested in finding office jobs and doing work next to civilians who were on half the wages. When they had to work in the street, their fear would result in many an OTT arrest and aggression against people who had done little to nothing.
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Old 25th June 2018, 01:50 PM   #52
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I can't help but feel it was our loss. Escalated aggression in the police threatens the social contract inherent in social policing, however the trend was reversed in the late eighties/nineties and we can hope it is again.
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Old 25th June 2018, 02:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I can't help but feel it was our loss. Escalated aggression in the police threatens the social contract inherent in social policing, however the trend was reversed in the late eighties/nineties and we can hope it is again.
And of course, it is worth pointing out for the Americans, that the UK policing by consent came about because of severe overreaction by the UK authorities to public order and demonstrations, with multiple fatalities.

See the Peterloo massacre, foe example.
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Old 26th June 2018, 05:18 AM   #54
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The Scottish Police, supported by the police federation are desperate to roll out the use of tazers. They recently claimed some 6000 police officers are assaulted each year;

https://spf.org.uk/8th-june-2018/

Angus is a wealthy farming area with small towns, yet it is claimed assaults against the police have jumped by 37.3% and 70 police officers were assaulted in one year there.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...lice-officers/

I do not trust police crime statistics, due to a history of massaging the figures to suit. That claimed onslaught of violence against the police is contrary to every other indicator which shows falling violence in Scotland;

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0052/00525102.pdf

Between 2008 and 2015 violent crime has fallen by 41% according to the Scottish Crime & Justice Survey, by 50% according to the police and by 52% according to NHS A&E admissions.

So, either something has happened such the increasingly less violent Scots have got it in for the police, or the police are massaging the figures because they want tazers.
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Old 26th June 2018, 05:23 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I can't help but feel it was our loss. Escalated aggression in the police threatens the social contract inherent in social policing, however the trend was reversed in the late eighties/nineties and we can hope it is again.
Sadly there appears to be a lot of public support for police violence. The tazer incident and the housebreaker could have easily been dealt with by either no or minimal force. The use of tazer and baton was OTT and I think the acceptance of such OTT behaviour is why the officer who stood and did nothing whilst Rashan Charles died, is not going to face charges.

The public do not mind violence by the police and criminals dying.

Until it happens to them or someone they care for. Then they do mind, but it is too late, the culture they helped to create now works against them.
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Old 26th June 2018, 05:35 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am saddened that this has been considered an accident. A police officer chases and arrests a male who then swallows drugs and chokes to death. The police officer does nothing to render medical assistance and delays calling for such;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44551132
"During the inquest, the court was shown CCTV footage of Mr Charles putting a "golf ball-sized" package in his mouth before he was grabbed from behind by an officer."

This merely confirms that the suspect died due to his own stupidity.
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Old 26th June 2018, 05:49 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
"During the inquest, the court was shown CCTV footage of Mr Charles putting a "golf ball-sized" package in his mouth before he was grabbed from behind by an officer."

This merely confirms that the suspect died due to his own stupidity.
Here, a male does exactly the same thing and dies;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...herts-42732992

"A drug dealer who tried to swallow a "big white ball" of heroin while being arrested choked to death, an inquest jury has concluded.
Karl Brunner, 48, was stopped by police to be searched in Bedford but became unresponsive as he was being detained. He died in hospital, on 11 May 2016.
A jury at Ampthill Coroner's Court found his death was accidental."

The incident is caught on camera. Notably, despite there apparently being no procedure to summon immediate medical response regarding chocking incidents, the officers instantly start to try and help the male and preserve life. They do CPR and an ambulance is called and quickly attends. Common sense, the duty of care and procedure is followed, but sadly the male dies anyway.

I have no problem with that. The male is responsible for swallowing something so large and the police did all that is reasonable to do. Now, maybe you can explain to me why standing around and doing nothing and not following the Met procedure for similar incidents is somehow OK?

Bear in mind that when a person is arrested and in particular cuffed, the responsibility for that person's welfare shifts onto the police because the police have full control over that person and what they can and cannot do.
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Old 26th June 2018, 06:10 AM   #58
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Well said, Nessie
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Old 26th June 2018, 07:59 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
"During the inquest, the court was shown CCTV footage of Mr Charles putting a "golf ball-sized" package in his mouth before he was grabbed from behind by an officer."

This merely confirms that the suspect died due to his own stupidity.
That someone is dying from their own stupidity is no reason not to at least try to save them. If it were the emergency services, particularly mountain rescue and life boats, would be vastly less busy.
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Old 26th June 2018, 08:10 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
That someone is dying from their own stupidity is no reason not to at least try to save them. If it were the emergency services, particularly mountain rescue and life boats, would be vastly less busy.
Mountain rescue, the RNLI, the Coastguard etc are organisations which spend much of their time rescuing idiots from themselves. Imagine the RNLI turned out and then made no effort to save someone drowning
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Old 26th June 2018, 09:15 AM   #61
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A barrister's view of UK police as part of a longer article on her experiences with a criminal.
link
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Old 26th June 2018, 11:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Mountain rescue, the RNLI, the Coastguard etc are organisations which spend much of their time rescuing idiots from themselves. Imagine the RNLI turned out and then made no effort to save someone drowning

"Ha, ha, ha! You brought an outboard motor insufficient to over come the spring tide! Sucker!"
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Old 27th June 2018, 02:36 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Mountain rescue, the RNLI, the Coastguard etc are organisations which spend much of their time rescuing idiots from themselves. Imagine the RNLI turned out and then made no effort to save someone drowning
Well, we'll find out next time someone paddles out of their depth on a lilo and swallows a golf ball-sized package of drugs when the RNLI turn up to help them.
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Old 5th September 2018, 05:34 AM   #64
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The officer who tazed the elderly man has been cleared of misconduct

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/05/polic...viser-7915811/

"Peter Cadman, independent chairman of the misconduct panel....He said: ‘We do not find that the actual use of the Taser was unreasonable in the circumstances as PC Boddie believed them to be on January 14.
‘We do not find that the absence of a warning was unreasonable. We do not find it unreasonable for PC Boddie to have discharged her Taser in the way that she did, even thought one of the barbs struck Mr Adunbi in the face.
‘The panel therefore find none of the breaches as alleged have been proved.’"

That sets the level of threat to a police officer for them to use a tazer as very low indeed and the no warning is ridiculous.
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Old 5th September 2018, 10:13 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think she is just not physically and mentally up to the job and dealign with belligerent people. She was clearly considered to be promotion material, as she has sergeants stripes on in the video, but is referred to as a PC. I hope she is not going to be promoted and indeed I hope she is sacked.

She used excessive force on an elderly man and it is a disgrace she was found not guilty.
Unfortunately, there's a ton of people who are in positions that they really, really, are not qualified to be in, IMO. I work with a few of them.

As with most areas of employment, and walks of life in general, you get the good, the bad, and the ugly...and the incompetent.
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Old 5th September 2018, 10:15 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yet the Sun newspaper describes it as a "brilliant moment"
The Sun is a paper I wouldn't even wipe my arse with.
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Old 5th September 2018, 01:03 PM   #67
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The Sun newspaper editorial would soon change their mind of a journalist was tazered for being a bit obstreperous with the police.
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Old 19th December 2018, 09:31 AM   #68
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The death of Sheku Bayou during an arrest has caused a lot of controversy. The prosecutor has declined to take any action against the arresting officers, despite evidence Bayou died from positional asphyxia. A documentary aired on the BBC, which I saw last night, casts doubt on the police version of events, as CCTV is produced;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46591551

"A BBC Disclosure programme screened on Monday night featured:

Evidence the first officers on scene escalated the situation instead of trying to defuse it
CCTV footage which questions officers' claims a female officer was kicked and stamped on by Mr Bayoh
Evidence that Mr Bayoh's actions were exaggerated in official police documents
Claims that racism may have played a role in the events"

There was also evidence of collusion by the officers before they gave their statements, as there were claims made about Lee Rigby, the off duty soldier killed by terrorists in London and that this was a potential terrorist attack. The incident was on a Sunday morning in Kirkauldy, a sleepy Scottish town famous for not much ever happening. There is no way all the police independently thought they were facing a terrorist.

It also turns out that Bayou was not the man mountain the police mad him out to be. The only arresting police officer who was smaller than him was the female police officer. One of the arresting officers was 6'4" and 24 stone.
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:20 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
One of the arresting officers was 6'4" and 24 stone.

That six-four, 24 stone can be either really, really scary or a bloke you can just walk slowly away from.
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:27 AM   #70
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The CCTV shows police arriving and going straight to CS spray and use of batons. No attempt was made to make an arrest with use of force.

The original report was he had a knife/machete, but it was not in his possession when the police arrived. He was also high on drugs.
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That six-four, 24 stone can be either really, really scary or a bloke you can just walk slowly away from.
He has a bit of a history;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34529611

"One of the principal police officers involved in the restraint of a black man who died in custody has a history of violence and racism, it has been alleged.

"The BBC has obtained statements alleging that PC Paton, 41, carried out a sustained attack on his own parents at their home in 2005, while he was off duty.
The attack was said to have left his mother, Ann Paton, now 61, unconscious, and his father, John Paton, 65, severely bruised and battered.
Police officers from the then Fife Constabulary were called to the incident, but the BBC understands PC Paton's parents elected not to pursue a complaint, after being assured by senior officers the matter would be dealt with internally."

and

"Mr Swan also alleged that the officer had admitted to being racist in the weeks since Mr Bayoh's death.
He said: "He out and out admitted that he was a racist, that he hates them, as he puts it - all the blacks."
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:37 AM   #72
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Jesus!

From the article:

"Mr Bayoh's family have now called on Police Scotland to explain why an officer with an apparent history of violence was allowed to be on independent patrol."

Which is just plain wrong. They should be asking why in the name of all the gods was he allowed to become a policeman or to continue being a policeman once his history was discovered.
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Old 19th December 2018, 10:44 AM   #73
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He is apparently suspended from duty, I presume awaiting some sort of disciplinary hearing. Plus, he is under police protection;

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...y-death-probe/

"A Fife police officer at the centre of the Sheku Bayoh death probe has been given round-the-clock protection, it has been claimed."
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Old 19th December 2018, 02:14 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He has a bit of a history;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34529611

"One of the principal police officers involved in the restraint of a black man who died in custody has a history of violence and racism, it has been alleged.

"The BBC has obtained statements alleging that PC Paton, 41, carried out a sustained attack on his own parents at their home in 2005, while he was off duty.
The attack was said to have left his mother, Ann Paton, now 61, unconscious, and his father, John Paton, 65, severely bruised and battered.
Police officers from the then Fife Constabulary were called to the incident, but the BBC understands PC Paton's parents elected not to pursue a complaint, after being assured by senior officers the matter would be dealt with internally."

and

"Mr Swan also alleged that the officer had admitted to being racist in the weeks since Mr Bayoh's death.
He said: "He out and out admitted that he was a racist, that he hates them, as he puts it - all the blacks."
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Jesus!

From the article:

"Mr Bayoh's family have now called on Police Scotland to explain why an officer with an apparent history of violence was allowed to be on independent patrol."

Which is just plain wrong. They should be asking why in the name of all the gods was he allowed to become a policeman or to continue being a policeman once his history was discovered.
Indeed.
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Old 19th December 2018, 03:13 PM   #75
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Finally, a UK police officer that Baylor can support!
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:19 AM   #76
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Social media trial ongoing about this incident;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...iking-teenager

A police officer has a male cuffed. The PC then strikes the male about 6 times to the legs with his baton until the male sits down. Then the PC puts his baton away.

In terms of Officer Safety Training, it appears the PC wants more control over the male, who does appear to be pulling away on the cuffs. The legs are a green zone, so considered safe to be struck. So, striking the male on the legs to get him to sit is within OST instructions and the need to gain control of an arrested person.

What is missing is any verbal communication from the PC. OST would have officers shouting a clear instruction as to what they want the arrested person to do.
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Old 31st October 2019, 01:58 AM   #77
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Thread bump after a comment on the thread about the behaviour of US police officers. As you can see, UK police get into bother, but not at the rate and severity of US police.
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:17 AM   #78
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Nessie, something pretty awful happened in Scotland recently and somebody died. I can't remember the name to Google an article, can you?
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nessie, something pretty awful happened in Scotland recently and somebody died. I can't remember the name to Google an article, can you?
Do you mean the suspended officer who appears to have committed suicide?

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...g-train-nazis/

Or the death in custody where the prisoner went without food or water?

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/f...er-was-common/
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Old 31st October 2019, 05:26 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
He did have ID that for reasons unknown he elected to offer only after being tasered, floored and half cuffed. It suggests to me that he was pissed of at persistently being pulled by reason of being mistaken for somebody else and decided on this occasion he wasn't going to play ball.

Can't for the life of me see why that WPC decided to taser but she was gagging to do so having pulled the taser gun at some point prior to the video. Make me wonder what we didn't see.

Still, all said and done, it's time (again) to trot out Bluesjnrs' Razor.

In all interactions with a police officer (serving or otherwise) they will attempt to put you on the wrong side of the law. Taking that into consideration act accordingly.
by avoiding interaction if at all possible.
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