ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 31st October 2019, 05:28 AM   #81
rockysmith76
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,990
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How sexist.
how not seeing the point of excessive force, equal opportunity accountability
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 06:28 AM   #82
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Do you mean the suspended officer who appears to have committed suicide?

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...g-train-nazis/

Or the death in custody where the prisoner went without food or water?

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/f...er-was-common/

No, neither of these, although that second one sounds fairly bad.

Someone was beaten up by police who were laughing and joking about his condition, and he died in hospital. I'll try to see if I can find an article. I'm obviously googling the wrong terms because there has been a lot of discussion about this and yet I can't bring up an article.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 31st October 2019 at 06:30 AM.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 07:01 AM   #83
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,120
The Sheku Bayoh case?
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2019, 07:22 AM   #84
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
Found it. The name was Allan Marshall and it was a death in custody and the people responsible were prison officers (at Saughton jail) not police officers which is probably why I didn't find it earlier. It happened last year.

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1189512272630161409

Sheku Bayoh was also pretty bad but happened in 2015.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 31st October 2019 at 08:50 AM.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 03:06 PM   #85
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
An extremely rare event;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50333081

"A police officer has been charged with the murder of retired footballer Dalian Atkinson who died after being tasered.

The ex-Aston Villa striker, 48, was restrained by police officers at his father's house in Telford, Shropshire, on 15 August 2016.

A second police officer, also from the West Mercia Police force, has been charged with assault causing actual bodily harm."
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2019, 03:15 AM   #86
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
CPS guidelines regarding murder;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...d-manslaughter

"The intent for murder is an intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH). Foresight is no more than evidence from which the jury may draw the inference of intent, c.f. R v Woollin [1999] 1 Cr App R 8 (HOL). The necessary intention exists if the defendant feels sure that death, or serious bodily harm, is a virtual certainty as a result of the defendant's actions and that the defendant appreciated that this was the case - R v Matthews (Darren John) [2003] EWCA Crim 192."

There is a lot of debate amongst UK police officers as to how this is murder and whether or not to keep taser. I think the answer is above and something took place whereby the officer who tasered the footballer knew that there was a "virtual certainty" he would come to serious harm or die.

The footballer apparently had health issues and he was with family when the incident happened. Maybe concerns about his health were relayed to the police, but they tasered him anyway.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2019, 03:22 AM   #87
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 94,800
Few details of this until it goes to court but it does seem very unusual, one wonders what prompted the decision to prosecute for murder.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2019, 05:26 AM   #88
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,120
Guardian story from the time
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...on-taser-death

Within days the IPCC had issued 2 officers with gross misconduct notices. Witnesses reported him being kicked by police as he lay on the ground.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 12:46 PM   #89
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/b...paign=sharebar

A police officer sent to prison for 14 weeks for kicking a youth in the face, whilst the youth was cuffed, on the ground and not resisting, is now being subject to a misconduct hearing. I suspect that is so he loses his pension contributions.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 01:00 PM   #90
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
I guess this might be a topic for a new thread, but taking someone's pension because of some misconduct seems to me to be absolutely outrageous. It is a punishment far and above what any court would impose, to be reduced to penury in one's old age, and it affects not just the person who has done wrong but their family also, especially their spouse.

It also means that authorities can have a huge hold over someone which can be used to silence them or otherwise manipulate. I recall a colleague of mine once saying that the then Chief Veterinary Officer (a civil servant) was unable to break the government line at the time of the Foot and Mouth crisis because he was near retirement age and if he stepped out of line he could be sacked (no big deal) and would lose his pension (an enormous deal).

Surely accrued pension should be sacrosanct no matter what someone has done? If contributions have been into a private pension fund then they would be untouchable anyway. Why should someone (and their spouse and family) lose a huge amount of money and be reduced to beggary in their old age just because they happen to be in an occupational pension scheme rather than a private one when they transgress?

(If this might be something people want to discuss for more than a couple of posts we could ask for the thread to be split.)
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2019, 06:12 AM   #91
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
I find this hard to understand;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-50365383

"The family of a Fife man who died in police custody said they felt "betrayed" after being told that no-one will be prosecuted over his death.
Sheku Bayoh never regained consciousness after being restrained by officers in a Kirkcaldy street in 2015.

The 31-year-old, who had taken the drugs MDMA and Flakka, was found to have suffered 23 separate injuries.

His family said CCTV and phone footage cast doubt on claims made by officers about events leading up to his death.
They have described the decision not to prosecute the officers as a "betrayal of justice" and are now calling for a public inquiry.
The Crown Office said the decision not to prosecute had been taken after a "thorough review" of all the available evidence."

There is clear evidence that the forced used to arrest Bayou contributed to his death. That should surely be enough to charge the police officers concerned. A police officer who kicks a youth on the ground goes to prison for use of excessive force. But 23 injuries and a death is somehow not excessive???
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2019, 06:40 AM   #92
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
You find it hard to understand? Really?
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2019, 06:46 AM   #93
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You find it hard to understand? Really?
Yes. In particular the injuries consistent with positional asphyxia. Apparently the cause of death was "sudden death in a man intoxicated…[drugs] whilst under restraint." One of the officers who admits to lying on Bayoh for "a maximum of 30 seconds" weighed 24 stone. That is easily enough to suffocate him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46591551
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2019, 06:58 AM   #94
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
I thought you meant you were surprised by the COPFS deciding not to prosecute. I'm not.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2019, 07:28 AM   #95
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes. In particular the injuries consistent with positional asphyxia. Apparently the cause of death was "sudden death in a man intoxicated…[drugs] whilst under restraint." One of the officers who admits to lying on Bayoh for "a maximum of 30 seconds" weighed 24 stone. That is easily enough to suffocate him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46591551
WTF?!
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2019, 03:44 AM   #96
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I thought you meant you were surprised by the COPFS deciding not to prosecute. I'm not.
Why are you not surprised?

I think the only reason why COPFS do not want to prosecute is because they fear falling out with the police by prosecuting.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2019, 04:03 AM   #97
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 19,623
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
CPS guidelines regarding murder;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...d-manslaughter

"The intent for murder is an intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH). Foresight is no more than evidence from which the jury may draw the inference of intent, c.f. R v Woollin [1999] 1 Cr App R 8 (HOL). The necessary intention exists if the defendant feels sure that death, or serious bodily harm, is a virtual certainty as a result of the defendant's actions and that the defendant appreciated that this was the case - R v Matthews (Darren John) [2003] EWCA Crim 192."

There is a lot of debate amongst UK police officers as to how this is murder and whether or not to keep taser. I think the answer is above and something took place whereby the officer who tasered the footballer knew that there was a "virtual certainty" he would come to serious harm or die.

The footballer apparently had health issues and he was with family when the incident happened. Maybe concerns about his health were relayed to the police, but they tasered him anyway.
I used to see Dalian Atkinson play at Aston Villa so I was quite upset at his sorry end.

I think there is a good chance the cops will be found not guilty. Their being charged is an exercise to show that the police are accountable. As you know, all deaths in police custody have to be referred to the Independent Police Committee and it has to be seen doing its job.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2019, 04:31 AM   #98
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Why are you not surprised?

I think the only reason why COPFS do not want to prosecute is because they fear falling out with the police by prosecuting.

That's why I'm not surprised.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2019, 05:38 AM   #99
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I used to see Dalian Atkinson play at Aston Villa so I was quite upset at his sorry end.

I think there is a good chance the cops will be found not guilty. Their being charged is an exercise to show that the police are accountable. As you know, all deaths in police custody have to be referred to the Independent Police Committee and it has to be seen doing its job.

I do not think that a British police officer has ever been convicted for any death in police custody.

That includes the death in custody that I was shown during a course on looking after prisoners, where police officers sat on a prisoner until he died of positional asphyxia.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:00 AM   #100
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,425
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not think that a British police officer has ever been convicted for any death in police custody.

That includes the death in custody that I was shown during a course on looking after prisoners, where police officers sat on a prisoner until he died of positional asphyxia.
Yes, if you look at Inquest's website - I think .org.uk the list is shocking.

including where tyere were verdicts of unlawful killing
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2019, 05:50 AM   #101
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
We're not a shining example of rectitude, that's for sure. I think British police are less likely to go completely Tonto on an unremarkable member of the public who has committed some minor infringement. I haven't seen traffic stops for broken lights or even speeding escalate to people being shot dead at the wheel or dragged from their cars and tazed to the ground. But if you're arrested and the arresting officers mentally put you in the lowlife category (whether you actually are a hardened criminal or not) things can be very different.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 07:05 AM   #102
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,889
My fear is the there is a growing demand for taser and firearms amongst UK police officers. That is oddly coming at the time when violence has been falling and is at its lowest level for decades.

I think that the reason for the demand is that police officers nowadays are often not up to the physical side of the job. When I joined, we did PE at college that included carrying benches up rice crispy hill, so named because people would throw up their breakfast, the exertions were so extreme. We were also big, the height requirement meant that we all stood out. It was also when violence was far more common place, every night there would be fight we would have to break up. We were used it.

Nowadays, PE is cancelled if it looks a bit chilly outside and if you cannot manage a run, never mind. The lack of a height requirement means that there are now many really rather small and weak police officers who know they are going to struggle to arrest even a mildly pissed off older man, let alone a strong and fit youth. They are also not used to dealing with violence like we were, as it happens less often.

Those officers want taser and firearms because they cannot cope. We could end up with minor crimes being dealt with by taser or firearm.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 07:26 AM   #103
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
I'd never thought of it that way. I think you have a point.

(I see notices all over Tulliallan telling people not to come indoors in muddy trainers. One of the Lockerbie detectives I was working with reminisced about hating these runs. But I think they serve an important function and I don't think they should be voluntary. If police officers can't hack it physically they need to find a different vocation.)
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 10:42 AM   #104
deadrose
Illuminator
 
deadrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the wet side of the mountains
Posts: 3,491
Rolfe, I'd just like to point out that the phrase "going completely Tonto" has racist connotations, and you might want to use another phrase instead.
deadrose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2019, 04:37 PM   #105
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
Sorry, it was just something I picked up, I didn't realise it has racist connotations. I won't use it again. Thank you for pointing it out.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 05:13 AM   #106
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Rolfe, I'd just like to point out that the phrase "going completely Tonto" has racist connotations, and you might want to use another phrase instead.
How? It means to go crazy, derived from the Spanish "tonto" for stupid, itself from the Latin "attonitus" for stunned or dazed.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tonto

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st November 2019 at 05:15 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 06:57 AM   #107
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
Well I don't know, I was guilty of using a phrase I had heard and thought was snappy without researching the etymology. Maybe Deadrose could explain the alleged racist connotations?
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 07:05 AM   #108
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 8,187
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How? It means to go crazy, derived from the Spanish "tonto" for stupid, itself from the Latin "attonitus" for stunned or dazed.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tonto
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well I don't know, I was guilty of using a phrase I had heard and thought was snappy without researching the etymology. Maybe Deadrose could explain the alleged racist connotations?

As you will come to understand, it matters not what it actually means, it matters only in to what it can be twisted to mean.

In this case, think of a popular fictional character with the same name and his cultural heritage.......... there you have it. I'm pretty sure you were way ahead of me at all times in any case

Sorry for the slight derail and hopefully nobody has a paddy about it.
__________________
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 07:25 AM   #109
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
So it's similar to someone having a strop about the use of the word "niggardly"? This one isn't important enough to be a hill to die on, but I do get cross when people ascribe racist meanings to terms which don't have a racist derivation at all.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 08:15 AM   #110
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 8,187
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So it's similar to someone having a strop about the use of the word "niggardly"? This one isn't important enough to be a hill to die on, but I do get cross when people ascribe racist meanings to terms which don't have a racist derivation at all.
Indeed, and defending such a hill on a forum such as this is suicide, so I fully concur.
__________________
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 08:30 AM   #111
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,140
Anyway, I'm grateful to Information Analyst for his clarification. I may not be any the wiser but I am certainly better informed.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 08:35 AM   #112
eerok
Quixoticist
 
eerok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: ON Canada
Posts: 3,013
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
So it's similar to someone having a strop about the use of the word "niggardly"? This one isn't important enough to be a hill to die on, but I do get cross when people ascribe racist meanings to terms which don't have a racist derivation at all.
I think the idea here is that the proper noun refers to a racist depiction of a Native American (the Lone Ranger's sidekick). If you drop the capitalization, you'd be using the word as I think you intended.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tonto
__________________
"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde
eerok is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 08:45 AM   #113
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I think the idea here is that the proper noun refers to a racist depiction of a Native American (the Lone Ranger's sidekick). If you drop the capitalization, you'd be using the word as I think you intended.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tonto
I'm sure that's the assumption, even if it makes no sense, the character not being noted for being crazy.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 09:55 AM   #114
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Home.
Posts: 8,187
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I'm sure that's the assumption, even if it makes no sense, the character not being noted for being crazy.
Didn't his name mean "Wild One" or something similar, so maybe he had a back story from the radio era (well before my time)?
__________________
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2019, 10:25 AM   #115
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
Checking the British Library's Newspaper Archive, it seems that the earliest use in the sense outlined is in the Dublin Evening Herald of 29 October 2004:

"The award for most outlandish excuse for going Tonto, however, goes to Johnny Depp, whose latest movie Beyond Neverland opens tonight..."

Now, considering the date, that's beyond spooky.

There is a slightly earlier use of "go Tonto" in the Irish Independent of 27 April 2004. All subsequent uses are either of the same newspapers, and the same applies to the variation "went tonto."

So, blame the Irish...
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.