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Old 18th October 2019, 04:20 AM   #41
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This is why Occupy Wall Street failed
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Old 18th October 2019, 05:08 AM   #42
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Its all for nothing anyway.

To stop environmental damage we'll have to shrink our economy. The voter will not allow that until the situation in his/her country is catastrophic. By that time it will be too late.

And China and India will go right on and pollute away.
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Old 18th October 2019, 05:29 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
This is why Occupy Wall Street failed
You gotta admit though, yesterdays tube blocking protest, like Occupy, was wildly hilarious and the public's reaction even caused them to wimp out on their Gatwick protest.

I like their ( now deleted ) Facebook response.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ain-activists/
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Old 18th October 2019, 05:41 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I got the message

XR what us to stop using electric transport
Sending messages is easy, getting people to comprehend them is much more difficult. So many people are deliberately contrarian, and resent being told anything. I fully expect if that Swedish teenager warned people there was fatally toxic quantities of polonium in their drinking water a great many would dive into the reservoir, mouths open, just to spite her. Even if they personally saw the rest dying right there of polonium poisoning.

Human nature is what's going to wipe out the species. We're collectively too stupid to live long.
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Old 18th October 2019, 08:31 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, making some poor guy just trying to get home from work hours late is not going make him or her look on your cause very kindly.
Other way around - 06:00 when a lot of people are on their way to work, in as much of a working class area as you still get in London.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 18th October 2019 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 18th October 2019, 08:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Extinction Rebellion are not in the streets to hinder public transport.
No, but the ones at Canning Town and other Underground/DLR stations were.
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Old 18th October 2019, 08:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"This was a very stupid thing to do for attention," declared people from all over the globe who heard about the thing.
XR are trying to win hearts and minds in the UK. They're not really succeeding through stunts like this one.
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Old 18th October 2019, 08:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
XR are trying to win hearts and minds in the UK.
If that's their goal then I agree they are being foolish. Hearts are tough muscle and brains are too fatty, there's just no way to make a decent meal there. I guess maybe a sort of brain paste in a pastry? But the risk of disease would outweigh any flavor, it would be a only be novelty foodstuff at best. I can see it being a technical challenge on Bakeoff.
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Old 18th October 2019, 09:20 AM   #49
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Getting attention is not the same as getting what you want. Unless what you want is attention.

The abusive customer who gets what they want doesn't do so by getting attention, but by abusing the shopkeeper until they see surrender as their best option. Likewise with warfare. War isn't about getting attention. It's about killing people and destroying their stuff until the survivors agree to give you what you want.

If XR's goal is to get attention, they're succeeding. But according to Wikipedia, they have "the stated aim of using civil disobedience to compel government action".

As Tragic Monkey points out, there are attention-grabbing things you can do to compel action. But they all fall on the abuse-warfare spectrum, not the "look at me! look at me!" spectrum.

I also question the premise that civil disobedience compels government action. In a democracy, it's public opinion that compels government action. Mass protests and disruption of public life are expressions of that, and if they're large enough they can serve as a major wake up call to politicians. But I think that in the western democracies where civil disobedience has been tried, it's succeeded not in and of itself, but because there was widespread support for the cause.

Getting attention for the cause can be an important - even necessary! - precursor to getting support for the cause. The civil rights movement in the US involved calling attention to people who were segregated, silenced, and otherwise made invisible by the policies of the day. Getting public support meant getting the public to first notice and pay attention.

But XR doesn't have this problem. We've all heard about global climate change. The UN, and many of the most powerful governments, are telling people about it all the time. Even the US government(s) do a lot to ensure that people's minds are on the topic. And most politicians know pretty well where they stand, with regard to the opinions of their constituents. XR isn't waking anyone up to the issue. They're not galvanizing a silent majority into vocal support for their cause. We all understand that they are a very small minority of vocal and disruptive extremists, on an issue we're already well aware of.

And on the flip side, in non-democracies where civil disobedience has been tried, it has attracted attention, yes, but it has not compelled government action (or if it has, that action has been horrific and counter to the protestors' aims.)

---

Anyway, sorry for the serious post. I actually came here to apply the theory to the courtroom for comical effect.

"Objection, your honor!"

"Overruled."

The defense lawyer looked at his client. "That went well," he said.

"What do you mean?" said the client. "The judge overruled your objection."

"Yeah," said the lawyer. "But he talked about it."

"Maybe next time you should strenuously object", said the client.
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Old 18th October 2019, 10:09 AM   #50
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Mexico is rife with civil unrest and a principal tool is blocking streets at peak hours. Sometimes strategic locations with no alternative routes.

In one the teachers union took ove a tollway booth stop and held it all day. The next one some genius parked the busses they rented to get there across some gates and burned all four of them.

No other busses came to take them home. The next tollway takeover was all older cargo trucks parked on the sides away from the protest and no bus at all. None of those trucks burned, it would have been a long walk home.

A local street blocking over a group of parents trying to get a school to change director lasted all of ten minutes when angry drivers found another route as directed by a police officer. I went through it on a bike without having to ask anyone to move.
The director is still there at his same post years later.

Nobody I knew of thought it a good idea to act as such when other solutions were possible, even if they agreed those involved had right to be angry.

Since the three years long teachers strike the news will near instantly report blockages and sometimes suggest alternative routes.
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Old 18th October 2019, 10:12 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Its all for nothing anyway.

To stop environmental damage we'll have to shrink our economy. The voter will not allow that until the situation in his/her country is catastrophic. By that time it will be too late.
We need to shrink the economy, and stop making, selling, buying, and burning and dumping *things* we're told to buy because we bought the idea that buying things makes us feel good.


Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
And China and India will go right on and pollute away.
The USA produces twice as much CO2 per person than China.

India produces a quarter of what the USA does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ons_per_capita

The harm done by "privilege" is measurable, it's not just something to deny online while drinking scotch after a day in the office.
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Old 18th October 2019, 10:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
A Google intern straight out of school in Mumbai now gets paid more than a Walmart employee in California.

Why shouldn't "privileged" countries like the UK protest the exploitation of workers and environment in the latest developing countries like Indonesia and Bangladesh?

These protests are having the desired effect in so many places and organisations.

Here we should be having a discussion of waste, and corporations and their pursuit of profits, and the mass delusion of overconsumption as I suspect most of you agree with.

I also suspect most of you don't want to travel on public transport, eat more plant-based meals, or dispose of your waste in separate places.

Change is hard. We all know how hard it is to change a person's mind.

Lots of us learned Geography from books that were old when our history teachers taught us.

It's no longer 2006 when many here were experts on debunking psychics, ghosts, UFOs, astrology, etc.

The forum was declining in participation in tandem with those topics declining in the public sphere.

It's hard to keep up with change. There's so much to learn about recycling, sustainable development, inequality, environment, poverty, agriculture, etc.

Those topics are what Extinction Rebellion is about.

If educated people here don't understand that, they're part of their own perceived problems with the world.

https://i.imgur.com/cNqN9AI.jpg
If your desired effect is pissing people off to the point of ignoring whatever point you are trying to make (which I thought was climate change) and just finding you idiots, congratulations.

And the trying to stop people using a non carbon emitting, electric, mass transport system was kind of the perfect icing on the stupid cake.

Your reply wasn't anything to do with my post, and shows you doing exactly what I criticised earlier:

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Extinction Rebellion are not in the streets to hinder public transport.

Comments like that make it easier for so many to compartmentalise the issue.

Framing it that way makes it convenient for people to sound superior to other people asking them to stop polluting.
cullennz, it looks like you want to keep replying only to the topic title, without reading the thread.

It looks like you were in a rush to keep feeling smarter than XR because of clickbait nature of the compartmentalisation of the issue in the title.
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:15 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The funniest bit about the idiots is they are protesting an electric rail system.
Any evidence for this claim?
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Old 19th October 2019, 01:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They may not win people's love and approval, but they get what they want. In a perfect world they wouldn't, but ours is not a perfect world. And, surprisingly, not everybody prefers being liked over getting what they want!



I live in a country that exists because of a revolution. Did the loyalists love the revolutionaries? Of course not, they tried to kill them. Did the homeland admire the rebels? Of course not, it fought to stop them. And yet the rebels won, and I'm sitting in the nation they made all because they simply didn't care about convincing and winning over everybody.



Obviously I disagree.



Except for all the times it did work. Civil rights didn't happen because the minority managed to finally, finally appeal to the goodwill of the majority who then graciously granted them the favor of civil rights. It was a fight. (Which is actually still happening.)



It rather depends on what you consider helping that cause. If the goal was to scare people away from providing abortions then I'm afraid it actually has proven effective sometimes.



Ethically wrong in some of the examples above, yes. Strategically, not wrong if the gains made outweigh the penalties incurred. Taking the Crimea didn't make Russia popular with the rest of the world, did it? Oh, what a terrible strategic blunder, people dislike them now! They just have to console themselves with what they did gain, which was: the Crimea. I'm sure Putin weeps at night over the mean things people say about him for achieving his goal and holding onto the prize.

Are you an American? Sometimes I think Americans fetishize the notion of being popular to the point they allow themselves to be blinded from what actually matters. A victory is when you get what you wanted, it doesn't require univeral approval and support and being liked.
Pithily put.
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Old 19th October 2019, 02:14 AM   #55
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https://mobile.twitter.com/lennythep...43313512456192

"Quote of the day from a Canning Town commuter as this upper-middle class fool was dragged from the roof of a train - “You’re not in the vegan aisle of Waitrose now Dorothy.”"
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Old 19th October 2019, 07:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Extinction Rebellion are not in the streets to hinder public transport.

Comments like that make it easier for so many to compartmentalise the issue.

Framing it that way makes it convenient for people to sound superior to other people asking them to stop polluting.
It's in the OP citation: They are intentionally disrupting public transport. Buses and tube. They may not be ideologically opposed to public transport, but their marketing strategy literally puts them in the streets to hinder public transport.
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Old 19th October 2019, 07:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any evidence for this claim?
It's in the OP and elsewhere. Their protest consists in part of disrupting the Underground.
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Old 19th October 2019, 08:49 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's in the OP and elsewhere. Their protest consists in part of disrupting the Underground.
That does not support the claim Cullenz made.
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Old 19th October 2019, 09:48 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That does not support the claim Cullenz made.
I think it definitely supports his point, though. Which is that it's dumb to protest by disrupting the stuff you actually want more of.

They're attacking exactly the people who are already doing what they want people to do. That's a terrible mixed message to send.

And I think 'they're protesting electric trains" is a reasonable shorthand for conveying that idea.

Do you at least agree that their protest consists in part of targeting electric trains?
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Old 19th October 2019, 10:11 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it definitely supports his point, though. Which is that it's dumb to protest by disrupting the stuff you actually want more of.

They're attacking exactly the people who are already doing what they want people to do. That's a terrible mixed message to send.

And I think 'they're protesting electric trains" is a reasonable shorthand for conveying that idea.

Do you at least agree that their protest consists in part of targeting electric trains?

Not just that; it's also targeting the working class 6am riders of those trains. This fits an unfortunate pattern that already makes it appear to large segments of society that proposed climate change measures are designed to curtail the standard of living of the lower classes while protecting the privileges of the upper classes. Subsidies and operator perks (special parking, etc.) for expensive electric vehicles but talk of bans on cheap ICE vehicles. Regressive carbon taxes on necessities, feeding into new carbon market instruments for the investor class to speculate in. Tax breaks for insulating or solarizing your home, that renters can't do, to "offset" higher energy taxes that renters must pay.

This isn't just bad optics for one protest. It's the self destruct mechanism at the heart of the whole movement. Because if the same governments that can currently be relied on to tailor any and all legislation to avoid any discomfort to the oligarchy are the ones we're expecting to legislate productive climate measures, that unfortunate perception will turn out to be correct.
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Old 19th October 2019, 11:19 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it definitely supports his point, though. Which is that it's dumb to protest by disrupting the stuff you actually want more of.

They're attacking exactly the people who are already doing what they want people to do. That's a terrible mixed message to send.

And I think 'they're protesting electric trains" is a reasonable shorthand for conveying that idea.

Do you at least agree that their protest consists in part of targeting electric trains?
I truly don't really have an opinion about all of that, I simply took his post at face value and he seemed to be making a claim which went against what I've read and heard about their aims and protests. If it was meant to be sarcastic or I was meant to read something between the lines it totally went over my head
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:47 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I truly don't really have an opinion about all of that, I simply took his post at face value and he seemed to be making a claim which went against what I've read and heard about their aims and protests. If it was meant to be sarcastic or I was meant to read something between the lines it totally went over my head

What I meant was they are claiming to want govts to fix global warming.

And their method to do this is trying to stop one of the most efficient least carbon emitting mass transport systems on the globe.
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:51 PM   #63
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And even stupider, they picked East London

Where a lot of people actually can't afford to miss a day of work
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Old 19th October 2019, 06:48 PM   #64
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It seems people are either unaware or avoiding the fact that Extinction Rebellion targeting UK tube transport is only one of many completely different type of climate change protests being done.

Compartmentalising continues.

People are protesting in streets all over the world.

1 million people - 10% of the population Bolivia gathered in the street to protest a few weeks ago.

Check out the drone footage.

https://twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/sta...261139969?s=20


People march in the street, under many "umbrellas", not just XR, not just in the UK, not just on public transport.
They lie on footpaths acting dead outside unethical chain stores.
They paint their hands red to symbolise the blood on all our hands due to war, starvation, poverty.
XR have websites, branches, social media feeds in countries all over the world.
They're not "kids".

Jane Fonda was arrested with 15 others in front of the US Capitol. (That might trigger some knee-jerking.)
Climate scientist Martin Wolterding was arrested during protests in Sydney.
https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.co...in-wolterding/

Many people don't look into what they oppose.
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Old 19th October 2019, 06:56 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Many people don't look into what they oppose.
Or if they dislike the messenger for any reason (rational or not) they dismiss the message entirely. I loathe those self-satisfied idiots who make those patronizing anti-smoking ads but I'm not going to start smoking to spite them, or argue against the health risks of smoking just so I'm not sullied by being on the "same side" as people I don't like.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 07:14 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We need to shrink the economy, and stop making, selling, buying, and burning and dumping *things* we're told to buy because we bought the idea that buying things makes us feel good.




The USA produces twice as much CO2 per person than China.

India produces a quarter of what the USA does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ons_per_capita

The harm done by "privilege" is measurable, it's not just something to deny online while drinking scotch after a day in the office.
I agree.

We need to shrink our economy.
I'm just saying that we won't because of the next quarterly results and stuff.

Climate protesters are right. But as the reactions on even this forum show, people are just not aware of the size of the problem.

Something, something, deckchairs, Titanic.

There is no way we can turn the economic model around to something sustainable and not growth-based.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 08:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
It seems people are either unaware or avoiding the fact that Extinction Rebellion targeting UK tube transport is only one of many completely different type of climate change protests being done.
The XR protest is literally the topic of the thread. You're basically calling out Information Analyst for daring to criticize XR, instead of starting a thread about some other, less obnoxious and counter-productive protest by some other group. And you're calling out everyone else for expressing opinions about XR, in a thread about XR.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Start a thread about your favorite protest group and their effective protest strategies. Stop trying to shame people into talking about what you want to talk about, in threads that aren't even about your pet topic anyway.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 01:22 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
It seems people are either unaware or avoiding the fact that Extinction Rebellion targeting UK tube transport is only one of many completely different type of climate change protests being done.
I live in London. I'm perfectly aware of how many different ways XR are being disruptive in my city. I'm also aware that on the scale of disruption, trying to **** up ordinary people's commute in Canning Town was so obviously stupid, counter-productive, and likely to get the protestors a good kicking that it's actually quite staggering that they went ahead with it. Sticking a painted yacht in the middle of Oxford Circus and only really disrupting shoppers (make sense, fast-fashion, etc.) looks a work of genius in comparison.
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Old 6th November 2019, 07:09 AM   #69
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"A police ban on Extinction Rebellion protests in London last month was unlawful, High Court judges have ruled."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50316561
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