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Old 4th November 2019, 07:17 AM   #241
uke2se
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The trans-threads are very good examples of what I'm talking about, but could we keep discussion of those topics to those threads?

Suffice to say, I tried participating in those threads, but as I applied the idea I laid out in the OP, soon there was nobody to talk to.
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Old 4th November 2019, 08:01 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And yet more tone policing.
Oh, quit it with the buzzwords. Can you or can you not address other people's points?

Quote:
I've addressed every single point in the manner it deserved.
Weasel words. You could say this regardless of how you responded.

Quote:
Your refusal to even acknowledge, let alone familiarize yourself with the evidence presented, does not put the onus for your deliberate ignorance on me.
And here you go again: you are completely unwilling to even consider that people might draw different conclusions from the same evidence. Your opinions are the only legitimate ones. Everybody else is ignorant.
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Old 4th November 2019, 08:08 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, quit it with the buzzwords. Can you or can you not address other people's points?







Weasel words. You could say this regardless of how you responded.







And here you go again: you are completely unwilling to even consider that people might draw different conclusions from the same evidence. Your opinions are the only legitimate ones. Everybody else is ignorant.
At least the two of you are still talking to each other. Per the thesis of this thread, I figure uke2se must have given up on one or both of you by now.
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Old 4th November 2019, 08:10 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
At least the two of you are still talking to each other. Per the thesis of this thread, I figure uke2se must have given up on one or both of you by now.
I'm pretty sure he's had me on ignore for a while.
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Old 4th November 2019, 09:07 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, quit it with the buzzwords. Can you or can you not address other people's points?

I did, the fact that you are handwaving the obvious problems in your response as "buzzwords", and actual science as "opinions", is just more evidence of the validity of the OP in this thread.

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Weasel words. You could say this regardless of how you responded.



And you'd be just as dismissive of it so long as it contradicts your deeply held beliefs.

So I really don't see any point to continuing this.
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Old 4th November 2019, 09:50 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I did, the fact that you are handwaving the obvious problems in your response as "buzzwords", and actual science as "opinions", is just more evidence of the validity of the OP in this thread.
No, it doesn't follow at all, even if your premise was correct, which it is not. I've addressed all of your responses and your reply was "U ignorant!"

Quote:
And you'd be just as dismissive of it so long as it contradicts your deeply held beliefs.
Clearly you don't understand what I wrote. "I answered the points as they deserved" is a platitude.

And again, your words betray your thoughts: you can't even fathom disagreement. To you it's "dismissal" and "ignorance".

And what beliefs do you think I hold? I'll remind you that I probably agree with you on about 80% of this topic. Is it my belief that transgenderism is real that bothers you? Or the belief that trans people should be treated with the same dignity and respect as everyone else? Or that we should support them in their transition, perhaps even monetarily? Or my belief that their concerns re restrooms should be addressed?

Tell me, what "belief" do you think is objectionable, here?
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Old 4th November 2019, 10:11 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Clearly C does not follow from either P1 or P2. There are a couple of implicit premises that luchog holds in order to derive C from P1 or P2. These premises are:

P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."
P2b = "men who wear dresses shouldn't exist."

P1b is an interesting belief for luchog to hold, given his persistent claims that people who don't share his ideology are just like nazis. Does luchog not know what the nazis did with people with mental illnesses because they also believed in P1b?
There's a flaw in your logic.

You present it as Luchog holding premises P1b and/or P2b. That doesn't follow. A logical hypothesis would be that Luchog believes that others (the ones making statements P1 and P2) hold premises P1b or P2b. It is not necessary for Luchog to also hold those premises.
Quote:

P2b is a common belief in genderist cults, adherence to strict gender roles where men who wear dresses should not be allowed to exist. That these sort of regressive beliefs are promoted as progressive is quite interesting.

As usual luchog's arguments are just a big victim-playing show, with a sauce of a persecution complex, for promoting his regressive-genderist (men who wear dresses shouldn't exist) and even outright eugenicist (people with mental illnesses shouldn't exist) beliefs.
I think this is mis-characterizing Luchog's beliefs in a manner similar to the way you accuse Luchog of doing to others.
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Old 4th November 2019, 10:18 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
There's a flaw in your logic.

You present it as Luchog holding premises P1b and/or P2b. That doesn't follow. A logical hypothesis would be that Luchog believes that others (the ones making statements P1 and P2) hold premises P1b or P2b. It is not necessary for Luchog to also hold those premises.
Except that luchog said that they follow from the premises. I've challenger her on that but all I've got in return is an insistence that it is so. Clealry luchog believes that if you hold P1 or P2 to be true, then you also hold P1b or P2b to be true as well.

Otherwise luchog's entire argument collapses.
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Old 4th November 2019, 10:24 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
There's a flaw in your logic.

You present it as Luchog holding premises P1b and/or P2b. That doesn't follow. A logical hypothesis would be that Luchog believes that others (the ones making statements P1 and P2) hold premises P1b or P2b. It is not necessary for Luchog to also hold those premises.


I think this is mis-characterizing Luchog's beliefs in a manner similar to the way you accuse Luchog of doing to others.
Actually, I think itís a fair reading. Itís Luchogís premise that because some people characterize transgenderism as a mental illness, those people donít want transgenderism to exist. No one else has made that argument. Thus, it could reasonably be inferred from the statement that Luchog thinks people with mental illness shouldnít exist. I donít actually think that Luchog thinks that way, but it could be inferred from their framing of the issue.

If transgenderism is a mental illness, so what? Are mentally ill people automatically bad and need to be eliminated or something? I donít think so and I would hope no one else does. As such, people who say that transgenderism is a mental illness arenít automatically ďreactionaries,Ē who should be ignored because they want ďthose peopleĒ not to exist. Thatís how you stifle discussions.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:14 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that luchog said that they follow from the premises. I've challenger her on that but all I've got in return is an insistence that it is so. Clealry luchog believes that if you hold P1 or P2 to be true, then you also hold P1b or P2b to be true as well.

Otherwise luchog's entire argument collapses.
I don't want to quibble, but what you said is actually what I presented as the corrected logic: Luchog does not need to believe P1b or P2b, but rather must believe (or assume) that the person referred to believes P1b or P2b.

That's not what was presented in the post I was responding to, which ascribed P1b and P2b to Luchog, not the person being addressed.

Now, the merits of Luchog's argument is correct is outside the scope of my post.
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Old 4th November 2019, 11:22 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I don't want to quibble, but what you said is actually what I presented as the corrected logic: Luchog does not need to believe P1b or P2b, but rather must believe (or assume) that the person referred to believes P1b or P2b.
How do you explain this:

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Quote:
Plus, saying it's a mental condition isn't denying the existence of transgenderism. In fact, quite the opposite. Saying that it's men in dresses, while simplistic and silly, is also not saying that.
Of course it bloody well does.
This is part of a larger discussion where I'm arguing to luchog that whatever her opponents are saying, it doesn't follow that they deny the existence of transgender people, nor does it follow that they want them to stop existing. Luchog clearly disagrees with that: in her mind it follows.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:20 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If transgenderism is a mental illness, so what? Are mentally ill people automatically bad and need to be eliminated or something? I don’t think so and I would hope no one else does. As such, people who say that transgenderism is a mental illness aren’t automatically “reactionaries,” who should be ignored because they want “those people” not to exist. That’s how you stifle discussions.

Classifying transgenderism as a mental illness means that transgenderism as a phenomenon doesn't exist, it's merely delusion; and as such, it can be cured or at least treated, and the person can become a "normal" binary cis-gendered person just like mainstream culture demands.

It very much wants transgenderism, and by association transgender people, to not exist; in the same way that proponents of "conversion therapy" want homosexuality, and therefore homosexual people, to not exist. It violates their worldview, and they cannot handle things that violate their worldview. And if you go back and read history, it's exactly the same rhetoric that reactionaries used against homosexual people. It was only in my lifetime that homosexuality stopped being considered a mental illness.

At any rate, I've reported this digression as off-topic, and requested it be split into another thread.

Which I have no intention of participating in, because the screamingly-tortured logic that certain posters are engaging in in order to create an utterly bizarre set of straw men is just proof that there is no reasonable, rational discussion to be had with certain parties involved. Anyone who wants to actually discuss the science is welcome to PM me; but I've no intention to even dignify these laughably idiotic mischaracterizations with a direct response.
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Old 4th November 2019, 01:59 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Actually, I think it’s a fair reading. It’s Luchog’s premise that because some people characterize transgenderism as a mental illness, those people don’t want transgenderism to exist. No one else has made that argument. Thus, it could reasonably be inferred from the statement that Luchog thinks people with mental illness shouldn’t exist. I don’t actually think that Luchog thinks that way, but it could be inferred from their framing of the issue.
There's literally a two part thread titled "Trans Women are not Women", on this forum, right now. And frankly, the jump from "So-called 'trans' people are mentally ill" to "So-called 'trans' people should be isolated/subjected to involuntary treatments/etc." is every bit as obvious as "Jews are trying to destroy the white Race", "Blacks are unintelligent superstrong brutes" and "Mexicans are rapist invaders." to similar brutality.

Quote:
If transgenderism is a mental illness, so what? Are mentally ill people automatically bad and need to be eliminated or something? I don’t think so and I would hope no one else does.
I suggest you get out more - mental illness is so stigmtized that when someone *does* clearly explain that they are white nationalists and they are murdering nonwhite people because of this, we hear "Oh ,he must have been mentally ill, let's make sure that mentally ill people can't get guns even though I have 50 AR-15s stashed away."

No, the mass murderer simply followed his philosophy to it's natural conclusion - "This group is a threat to everyone I love, the government can't do anything, thus I have to start a mass uprising."

And to bring it back, I only have one caveat to the OP's advise - if someone thinks they know how to turn someone who is genuine around, then they should feel free to try. But There's no chance I'm dealing with the folks making excuses for racist police, mass murderers, and the like - they make it clear that they have no issue whatsoever with seeing me shot dead for walking down the "wrong" street, so **** em.

ETA: in case it wasn't clear, here's so-called "dapper white nationalist" Richard Spencer screeching about "kikes" and "octaroons", and how he was going to "destroy" Charlottesville, shortly after Heather Heyer was murdered by another "dapper" white nationalist. The audio is NSFW, obviously.

Three things. First, shout out for specifying "Octaroons", nice to see some bigots still like the old school slurs. Second, y'all can stop blathering about how "antifa is the same", because they aren't. Third, remember all those people who rushed in to explain how Heyer had a heart attack, and the poor poor driver was just startled into barreling down the street (which, to be clear, was closed to vehicles)? Consider that those are some of the people just might qualify for what the OP is talking about.

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Old 4th November 2019, 03:05 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
There's literally a two part thread titled "Trans Women are not Women", on this forum, right now.
This forum is obviously filled with genocidal maniacs. It's not just people who claim that male mammals are female mammals who always have to assert their right to exist, but also people who claim the Earth is flat (I've seen more than one poster here claim that the Earth isn't flat, and the jump from that to "flat Earthers should be exterminated" is obvious) and people who claim God exists (I've seen more than one poster here claim that God doesn't exist, and the jump from that to "religious believers should be exterminated" is obvious) and so on and so forth.

40 points for "comparing those who argue against your beliefs to Nazis, stormtroopers or brownshirts." My goodness what a pathetic display.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:24 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I maintain that the samizdat media, the alt-media, or paleo-conservatives don't radicalize people. They normalize them. They help people shrug of the lies fed to them constantly by Cult of Diversity and the Woke crowd. Modern beliefs promoted by the Cult of Diversity are one absurdity, built upon another absurdity, built upon another without end. No one ever believed this BS in the past. What is called "reactionary" is simply an understanding the world as people have always understood it. It is only viewed as being "radical" or "reactionary" if one has been fed lies their entire life.
And what, pray tell, is the absurbdity pushed by the Cult of Diversity?
I think I know where this guy is coming from, just sort of hopes he is at least honest and outs himself.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:26 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
None. It's hyperbole and nothing else.

The problem with the extremists is that they don't accept any deviation from their own views. If you're not 100% with them, then by definition you must want them dead.

Which is weird because luchog can be very reasonable on other topics.
Extreme Political ideologues can be every bit as extreme and irrational as Religious Fanatics.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:29 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This is a forum that started as a place for reasoned, logical, evidence based discussions.

Care to put any logic , reasoning or evidence in your responses? Because that one might as well be an expression of faith, as if an sjw wrote the shahada.
I joined this site in 2007.Even back then, the joke was the JREF political forums was where rational thinking went to die.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:35 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How do you explain this:



This is part of a larger discussion where I'm arguing to luchog that whatever her opponents are saying, it doesn't follow that they deny the existence of transgender people, nor does it follow that they want them to stop existing. Luchog clearly disagrees with that: in her mind it follows.
I'm not defending the merits of Luchog's statement. In fact I agree with you on this: I don't think classifying transgenderism as a mental disorder is trying to say trans people shouldn't exist or are otherwise lesser people. Hell, some transgender people also classify their issue (dysphoria) as a mental disorder for which transition is the treatment.

But Caveman was saying that because Luchog was accusing those who use the term "mental disorder" of thinking trans people should not exist she must herself think that people with mental disorders shouldn't exist.

Now, it's possible that's the case, but the proof caveman presented does not support that.

Caveman's conclusion: Luchog holds the belief: P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."

But the correct analysis would be:
Luchog believes that the person who said P1 = "transgenderism is a mental illness." believes: P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."

All we know is that Luchog believes that people who say P1 believe P1b.
We don't know if Luchog herself believes P1b or not.

It may seem like a minor point, but the distinction is significant. If I think people who say X believe Y, it does not mean that I myself believe Y. It's a way of making it seem that someone holds the very views they are arguing against.

Am I making my point clear?
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:43 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Classifying transgenderism as a mental illness means that transgenderism as a phenomenon doesn't exist
Classifying ADHD as a mental illness means that ADHD as a phenomenon doesn't exist!

Quote:
and as such, it can be cured or at least treated, and the person can become a "normal" binary cis-gendered person just like mainstream culture demands.
And here we have the spin. It's not enough that you find the idea that it could be "cured" offensive. It's that the very idea means that you should conform. Leaving aside that conforming has nothing to do with the claim that it's a mental illness. You can't just stick to the facts; you always have to embellish them.

Quote:
It very much wants transgenderism, and by association transgender people, to not exist
Only because YOU have defined the conversation that way. One either accepts your claims whole or they don't want you to exist. Very rational.

Quote:
in the same way that proponents of "conversion therapy" want homosexuality, and therefore homosexual people, to not exist.
Except that no one wants to force trans people to conform. In fact, the only ones insisting on a "cure" for that condition are trans people who want to transition.

Quote:
It violates their worldview, and they cannot handle things that violate their worldview.
And the idea that it might be a mental illness violates your worldview. I don't know why you think it's ok for you but not for anyone else. I know, I know. You think you have science on your side. Unfortunately you're the one who brought up that it's a neurological condition, which is not incompatible with the opposing view.

Quote:
Which I have no intention of participating in, because the screamingly-tortured logic that certain posters are engaging in in order to create an utterly bizarre set of straw men is just proof that there is no reasonable, rational discussion to be had with certain parties involved.
Irony!
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:44 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
There's literally a two part thread titled "Trans Women are not Women", on this forum, right now. And frankly, the jump from "So-called 'trans' people are mentally ill" to "So-called 'trans' people should be isolated/subjected to involuntary treatments/etc." is every bit as obvious as "Jews are trying to destroy the white Race", "Blacks are unintelligent superstrong brutes" and "Mexicans are rapist invaders." to similar brutality.
That's right folks. Disagreement is a gateway drug to genocide.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:48 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
But the correct analysis would be:
Luchog believes that the person who said P1 = "transgenderism is a mental illness." believes: P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."
Tom, I followed your logic from the start. There's no need to clarify.

But although Luchog certainly doesn't believe what Caveman posits, his analysis I think is more for shock value: why would someone claim that Y follows from X and not think themselves that X should lead to Y?

See the post I quoted earlier.
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Old 4th November 2019, 04:27 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Extreme Political ideologues can be every bit as extreme and irrational as Religious Fanatics.

Odd how a position becomes "extreme" the moment it diverges from a person's deeply held worldview; regardless of it's actual merits. Even a position like "I exist and the nature of my existence is just as valid as anyone else's".

Originally Posted by TomB View Post
But the correct analysis would be:
Luchog believes that the person who said P1 = "transgenderism is a mental illness." believes: P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."

I wonder how many people claiming to know what I believe also claim other psychic powers. Because... well, don't apply for the million, mate.
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Old 4th November 2019, 04:30 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Classifying transgenderism as a mental illness means that transgenderism as a phenomenon doesn't exist, it's merely delusion;
Thatís not what it means, exactly. Obviously, transgenderism exists as a phenomenon. But what exactly is the phenomenon? In my opinion, it is much more than a mere delusion but it is still primarily a condition of neurology that has a lot in common with other psychiatric conditions.

Quote:
and as such, it can be cured or at least treated, and the person can become a "normal" binary cis-gendered person just like mainstream culture demands.
I certainly donít believe that. I believe the condition is best treated by transitioning to some degree or another.

But you should be careful what you wish for. If transgenderism is not a mental illness, disorder or pathology, then the question becomes; should medical insurance pay for hormone treatments and transition surgery?

ó-
Anyway, this is the last Iíll say about it. I hope itís enough to show that mere disagreement does not mean that the disagreer is a reactionary troll. And that maybe there can be rational discourse even if we disagree..
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:10 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Odd how a position becomes "extreme" the moment it diverges from a person's deeply held worldview; regardless of it's actual merits.
Projection!

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Even a position like "I exist and the nature of my existence is just as valid as anyone else's".
NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT YOUR EXISTENCE. Nobody has suggested that you are subhuman. Stop arguing against strawmen.

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I wonder how many people claiming to know what I believe also claim other psychic powers. Because... well, don't apply for the million, mate.
How about you clarify the issue, since there seems to be several people confused as to what you mean despite you saying:

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Oh I think I've made my point quite effectively, and others have managed to see and understand it without any difficulty.
I also find it quite rich that you ask people not to mind-read when you have no shame in telling people exactly what they think about you, even when they are telling you that you're wrong.
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:15 PM   #265
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what a *********** of a thread.
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:33 PM   #266
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What's *********** is when someone accuses people who are otherwise on their side of wanting them dead.
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:36 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's *********** is when someone accuses people who are otherwise on their side of wanting them dead.
But entirely predictable. As this forum becomes more and more a progressive echo chamber, you'll have no choice but to turn on each other.
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:52 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But entirely predictable. As this forum becomes more and more a progressive echo chamber, you'll have no choice but to turn on each other.
I assume that was a general "you"?
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:55 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I assume that was a general "you"?
Assume whatever you like. I'm not the one starting Can't Talk To People threads that turn into progs unpersoning each other.
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Old 4th November 2019, 06:01 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Assume whatever you like. I'm not the one starting Can't Talk To People threads that turn into progs unpersoning each other.
I have no idea what that means. Are you being evil again?
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Old 4th November 2019, 06:17 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I have no idea what that means. Are you being evil again?
It means that you and luchog are at each other's throats, even though in the larger picture you're basically on the same side. Because the tunnel vision is closing in, and the larger picture is fading from view here.
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Old 4th November 2019, 06:22 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I wonder how many people claiming to know what I believe also claim other psychic powers. Because... well, don't apply for the million, mate.
Just to be clear, I wasn't actually posting a judgment of what you believe. I was posting what I believe could logically be inferred that you believe based solely on the statements Caveman posted. I was addressing his logic, not you. You just happened to be the subject of his post.

Nor do I intend to debate transgender issues on this thread. This thread is about the pitfalls of talking to reactionaries. I consider how logic is used as a tactic to be somewhat related to that.
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Old 4th November 2019, 06:41 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It means that you and luchog are at each other's throats, even though in the larger picture you're basically on the same side.
Yeah, that was the point I made.
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Old 4th November 2019, 08:53 PM   #274
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Some people just canít take the Ďshow me on the doll where they were mean to youí thing at face value.
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Old 5th November 2019, 02:06 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I'm not defending the merits of Luchog's statement. In fact I agree with you on this: I don't think classifying transgenderism as a mental disorder is trying to say trans people shouldn't exist or are otherwise lesser people. Hell, some transgender people also classify their issue (dysphoria) as a mental disorder for which transition is the treatment.

But Caveman was saying that because Luchog was accusing those who use the term "mental disorder" of thinking trans people should not exist she must herself think that people with mental disorders shouldn't exist.

Now, it's possible that's the case, but the proof caveman presented does not support that.

Caveman's conclusion: Luchog holds the belief: P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."

But the correct analysis would be:
Luchog believes that the person who said P1 = "transgenderism is a mental illness." believes: P1b = "people with a mental illness shouldn't exist."

All we know is that Luchog believes that people who say P1 believe P1b.
We don't know if Luchog herself believes P1b or not.
Why not both? As far as I see that's the most likely explanation, this reasoning of "unless you agree with my every claim you're denying my existence" is a hallmark of narcissism, as is projection. Furthermore, let's not forget that it's actually luchog and the sycophants who, not so long ago, proposed a rule change that anyone disagreeing with the "transwomen are women" claim should be banned (ie denied their "right to exist" on the forum).
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Old 5th November 2019, 02:45 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You are not the person I was talking to. I have no interest in attempting to convince you of anything. I don't think I'm capable of convincing you of anything. It's boring to try further. I'm dropping this now.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Actually, that's another woo-woo style platitude. Of course you have that interest. You wouldn't be debating people if you hadn't.

TragicMonkey was talking about you specifically, not about people in general.
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:28 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Why not both? As far as I see that's the most likely explanation, this reasoning of "unless you agree with my every claim you're denying my existence" is a hallmark of narcissism, as is projection. Furthermore, let's not forget that it's actually luchog and the sycophants who, not so long ago, proposed a rule change that anyone disagreeing with the "transwomen are women" claim should be banned (ie denied their "right to exist" on the forum).
Huh? Do you have a link for that?
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:48 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
There's literally a two part thread titled "Trans Women are not Women", on this forum, right now. And frankly, the jump from "So-called 'trans' people are mentally ill" to "So-called 'trans' people should be isolated/subjected to involuntary treatments/etc." is every bit as obvious as "Jews are trying to destroy the white Race", "Blacks are unintelligent superstrong brutes" and "Mexicans are rapist invaders." to similar brutality.
The whole "transwomen are women" vs "transwomen are not women" argument is more of a semantic debate than anything else.

Believing that the definition of the word "woman" is "an adult human female" has literally nothing in common with people believing transpeople should have to undergo involuntary treatments, that Jews are evil, black people brutes, Mexicans are rapists, etc.

I personally consider transwomen a subset of women, along with ciswomen (and I think cis women who object to being called "cis" are behaving in a strange way). I feel no greedy ownership over the word "woman", and I see transwomen in general as similar to myself in a "is a woman" sense, even though they're not technically, literally female.

But some of these issues cis women are having with trans women are very real, and not just cis women behaving irrationally, like traswomen in women's sports, women's prisons, etc. You can't just handwave all that away by accusing everyone who see the problems of being some sort of nazi-in-progress.

When you try to superimpose everything about race onto gender/sex, it doesn't "fit". It doesn't work as a model. They share some similarities, but they have some very real differences, too.
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Old 5th November 2019, 03:49 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Huh? Do you have a link for that?
I missed that proposed rule change, too.
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Old 5th November 2019, 04:11 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Why not both? As far as I see that's the most likely explanation, this reasoning of "unless you agree with my every claim you're denying my existence" is a hallmark of narcissism, as is projection. Furthermore, let's not forget that it's actually luchog and the sycophants who, not so long ago, proposed a rule change that anyone disagreeing with the "transwomen are women" claim should be banned (ie denied their "right to exist" on the forum).

Are you aware that people's existence (but only on the forum, of course) is ended all the time, temporarily or permanently? And are you aware that on the forum makes a hell of a difference?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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